The Canadian Electric Vehicle thread

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I will never understand the love affair with EVs.

That's the neat part. You don't have to. Most of the developed world and some of the developing world is ahead of Canada on EV adoption. They are going to determine what gets made. Not a country with less than 2% of global auto sales.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

EVs are still in their infancy and have a long way to go before they become even marginally affordable for the masses, the range increases dramatically, the size and weigh of the batteries drops by at least a 70%, they aren't sourced by the human rights horror story that is China or child slave labour in the Congo, recharging stations multiply by 10, the time to recharge them drops to 5 minutes and they are viable for those in cold climates. This is to say nothing of the tens of billions that will have to be spent on upgrading our hydro infrastructure.

Hilarious to see these talking points just as we get announcements like BMW changing over their main plant in Munich completely to EV manufacturing by 2027. Who is more likely to understand the maturity of the tech? Somebody in a market that is not exposed to the full range of global brands and a market lagging in EV adoption or the execs at BMW?

[Truenorth00]

I need to start saving some of these posts for the inevitable day when some of you trolls buy EVs. Be it 5 or 10 or 15 years, it's coming.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

EVs are still in their infancy and have a long way to go before they become even marginally affordable for the masses, the range increases dramatically, the size and weigh of the batteries drops by at least a 70%

Coming from the guy that was all-in on Hydrogen until a few months ago, this is objectively hilarious.

[lio45]

EVs are already beating ICEVs for total operating cost per km for those who drive a lot in jurisdictions where gas taxes aren’t low and electricity is reasonably cheap. Ask Travis to compare the math for his previous Honda Civic vs his current Tesla Model 3.

My sis’ husband, same thing: he does Mtl-Sherb several times a week, and his monthly gas bill for his former paid-off car (Mazda6) kinda matches his monthly Tesla payment.

[homebucket]

EVs were in their infancy 10 years ago when Tesla was coming out with the Roadster and then the Model S. I think now they're probably in their toddler/preschool stage. In another generation or two (10-15 years) we'll probably see advancements in battery technology especially with solid state (the puberty/teenage stage), before coming fully functioning, physically mature young adults. Which really isn't all that long from now.

[Truenorth00]

There's three key troll arguments and only one of them has marginal merit.

Cost: Not much merit in a country where half the population is buying $70k pickup trucks. Sure, it's a sacrifice in taste to get a Model Y instead of decked out F150. But the cost savings argument is bunk.

Environment: Particularly ridiculous and hilarious, when the alternative is usually gas guzzling SUV or truck. Nobody is buying an EV to save the environment. So they don't care. And neither do you. If you did, you'd quickly discover that holding gas cars to the same standard would have us all walking.

Charging infrastructure: The only reasonable troll argument. Actual infrastructure is a bit behind EV development. So there's still charging deserts. Like apartment buildings. Or areas which mostly use start parking.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by homebucket

EVs were in their infancy 10 years ago when Tesla was coming out with the Roadster and then the Model S. I think now they're probably in their toddler/preschool stage. In another generation or two (10-15 years) we'll probably see advancements in battery technology especially with solid state (the puberty/teenage stage), before coming fully functioning, physically mature young adults. Which really isn't all that long from now.

Different OEMs are at different levels. Here's how I think of the levels.

Pre-school: BEVs built on chassis converted from ICEV. No battery thermal management. Not much software. Low charge rates.

Elementary school: Purpose built chassis. Battery packs with thermal management systems. Software Defined Vehicles.

High school: High voltage architecture for powertrain and accessories. Advanced battery chemistries. Structural battery packs. Substantial automation.

University: Wireless charging. Substantial automation that allows handsfree operation. Self-diagnostic for everything from maintenance to charging. V2G, V2V and V2A integration.

They early Nissan Leaf was pre-school. The 2012 Model S was in the higher grades of Elementary School. Most legacy automakers are still stuck in Kindergarten (Toyota) or just about finishing up Grade 3 or 4 (Nissan). Some have made it to Middle School grades (Hyundai/Kia, VW). Meanwhile, Tesla is a Junior in High School looking at college brochures.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

There's three key troll arguments and only one of them has marginal merit.

Cost: Not much merit in a country where half the population is buying $70k pickup trucks. Sure, it's a sacrifice in taste to get a Model Y instead of decked out F150. But the cost savings argument is bunk.

Environment: Particularly ridiculous and hilarious, when the alternative is usually gas guzzling SUV or truck. Nobody is buying an EV to save the environment. So they don't care. And neither do you. If you did, you'd quickly discover that holding gas cars to the same standard would have us all walking.

Charging infrastructure: The only reasonable troll argument. Actual infrastructure is a bit behind EV development. So there's still charging deserts. Like apartment buildings. Or areas which mostly use start parking.

Not sure why #3 is a troll argument when there’s merit to it. We’re spending millions to let rich homeowners buy EVs and install home chargers, when that money should be spent on the infrastructure that would allow less well off families some day make EVs a feasible option.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by theman23

Not sure why #3 is a troll argument when there’s merit to it. We’re spending millions to let rich homeowners buy EVs and install home chargers, when that money should be spent on the infrastructure that would allow less well off families some day make EVs a feasible option.

It's somewhat a troll argument because it varies substantially by region and consumer. If you live in suburban Toronto or Ottawa or Montreal in a house, aren't towing anything regularly and mostly just roadtrip in the Corridor, you will never feel limited by charging options. If you live in an apartment building in Prince Albert, you're probably going to feel those limitations a lot more. It becomes a troll argument when the trolls start pretending that Prince Albert is just as likely as suburban Toronto.

[urbandreamer]

Meanwhile, in the real world, Tesla Model Y was the top selling vehicle in the EU last year, ahead of 2nd place Dacia Sandero by 40k units. A bunch of small hatchbacks are still in the top 10, but clearly those screwball Europeans love Elon Musk.

Are you buying $TSLA shares or waiting for that gap at $78 to fill?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Meanwhile, in the real world, Tesla Model Y was the top selling vehicle in the EU last year, ahead of 2nd place Dacia Sandero by 40k units. A bunch of small hatchbacks are still in the top 10, but clearly those screwball Europeans love Elon Musk.

Are you buying $TSLA shares or waiting for that gap at $78 to fill?

I'm curious how you square your regular personal assertion that EVs aren't practical with your shilling for Tesla? Why would you invest in a product you don't believe in?

[urbandreamer]

I've been driving EVs before Elon Musk had heard of them, ie electric forklifts ha.

Anyway, I need to charge my phone, except I don't understand fancy lithium ion batteries so I power mine with a gas generator!

Edit, then I watched https://youtu.be/K64HQ5ZPfdQ?si=nPuR5itcKsqvw4-T

And we're seeing these problems in Toronto now too. Can they solve these throughput issues by 2035?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not a mechanic, but I do know people who've had EVs (as their daily driver) for longer than me, and have never had the brakes touched.

I'm not a mechanic either, though I've heard of people who've owned ICEvs for years without having their brakes touched as well. I've also heard of brake pads being worn out in 1 year/30,000 km because they were seized solid into the caliper.

It was just a silly question about maintenance required. I haven't looked at any EV maintenance guides, or do they even have them? If there's a callout on the maintenance schedule to have brakes checked and lubed, then that's maintenance, and will help prevent brake part replacement at a later date.

It's not really that important, but that doesn't matter to my curiosity. I'm not trying to prove that EVs are junk, either (unless they are manufacturers from China... ).

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Having seen the rate at which rotors corrode in low-use situations in normal cars, it's not a bad idea to do a couple of 'firm' stops once in awhile. Safely, of course.

I don't have an EV, but that's what I do. Even if I see the surfaces corroded after a heavy rain storm. But I'm an edge case, and thus shouldn't be paid attention to.

It's the folks for whom cars are an appliance that they have little knowledge or care about, other that they get in and (attempt to) drive. These are the people for whom maintenance schedules are drawn up, and for whom cars should be built. The edge case folks will make it work no matter how bad it is.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I think you're forgetting the history and the advantages these large companies had when making excuses for them. GM had EV1 in the 90s. In the 2000s, Toyota had the Prius and Nissan had the Leaf. They had plenty of time and resources to build on that. They chose not to. Let's not forget that in 2010 Tesla was a startup rolling out electric roadsters on Lotus gliders out of a glorified hobbyist garage. They weren't anywhere close to what they are today. Even when they were building the Model S at Fremont in 2012, it was a single digit percentage capital commitment compared to any legacy automakers. The Chinese only started focusing on EVs once they saw how successful Tesla was. Legacy automakers instead chose to mock EVs as a distraction and hobby. The could have started some small division to build and sell one or two EV models to gain experience. They didn't even do that. They bitched and moaned when Obama demanded they accept higher fuel economy standards as quid pro quo for TARP. So yes, I think it's laziness. There's no other explanation for multibillion dollar auto companies not being able to do what a tiny startup with zero experience and intellectual capital on building cars was able to do.

Circular conversation. All I can say is that I paid attention to it while it was happening, without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. I'm just calling it how I saw it.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

most of the Chinese government intervention was nothing more than what our own governments are trying to do now

You obviously have more insight into the details of the Chinese government's working than the rest of us. I thought they generally didn't freely give out information about what they do behind closed doors.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The situation with brakes on EVs is really not that far from the situation with hybrids. The Prius, for example, has long been known to have brakepads last substantially longer than the average car. No reason why EVs would be any different.

But I guess, for anybody, who is genuinely concerned about brake corrosion, it's not hard to do a firm stop outside the regen zone once a week.

Yet another question blown out of proportion. Acajack made a statement that brake maintenance wasn't required on his EV (Mach e), Warren said he has his brakes maintained.

Therefore at least some EVs have maintenance done to their brakes. Good information. Nobody's whining or suggesting that EV brakes are any worse than ICEv brakes, though the regen tends to use them less, and, well, this has been covered. Nothing to worry about here, just information that's interesting to me (and probably one or two others).

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

There's three key troll arguments and only one of them has marginal merit.

Cost: Not much merit in a country where half the population is buying $70k pickup trucks. Sure, it's a sacrifice in taste to get a Model Y instead of decked out F150. But the cost savings argument is bunk.

I think this is a strange point. Suggesting somebody who wants/needs a pickup should instead buy a Model Y that they don't want is a little silly. I think the people who point out cost (i.e. purchase price) are simply talking model to model, not buying something they don't want because it's an EV and the same price.

I don't think the cost argument is a good one, because by the time they no longer have a choice (2035 or before), costs will have balanced out, plus there will still be a glut of ICEvs on the market for a while after that. Fuel might be more expensive and difficult to get by then, though.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Environment: Particularly ridiculous and hilarious, when the alternative is usually gas guzzling SUV or truck. Nobody is buying an EV to save the environment. So they don't care. And neither do you. If you did, you'd quickly discover that holding gas cars to the same standard would have us all walking.

Agree. Usually the argument is that building a new EV is harder on the environment than driving an already-built ICEv, while ignoring the fact that eventually a new ICEv will be built to replace the worn-out one. Apples to apples comparison shows there is no comparison.

Heck, I was thinking tonight while I was choking on the diesel fumes from the VW in front of me at the red light that I can't wait until everything is EV so I don't have to experience this anymore.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Charging infrastructure: The only reasonable troll argument. Actual infrastructure is a bit behind EV development. So there's still charging deserts. Like apartment buildings. Or areas which mostly use start parking.

Another argument for which there will be no argument by the time everybody is forced to buy EVs. The infrastructure is being built now, and will handle EVs. You tell me that there are no worries about 'the grid', and I trust you, so I am inclined to believe that it's a non-issue.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I think this is a strange point. Suggesting somebody who wants/needs a pickup should instead buy a Model Y that they don't want is a little silly. I think the people who point out cost (i.e. purchase price) are simply talking model to model, not buying something they don't want because it's an EV and the same price.

I don't think the cost argument is a good one, because by the time they no longer have a choice (2035 or before), costs will have balanced out, plus there will still be a glut of ICEvs on the market for a while after that. Fuel might be more expensive and difficult to get by then, though.

The cost argument is a troll one because it's never complaining about tastes. It's complaining about absolute cost. No troll ever says, "Electric pickups cost too much." It's always, "EVs cost too much." And that really doesn't seem to line up with the world where average new vehicle price in Canada was over $66k in 2023. When there's so many people buying $60+k vehicles (most of which come with $200/mo gas bills), the argument they can't afford EVs is laughable.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Another argument for which there will be no argument by the time everybody is forced to buy EVs. The infrastructure is being built now, and will handle EVs. You tell me that there are no worries about 'the grid', and I trust you, so I am inclined to believe that it's a non-issue.

I think the arguments about the grid falling apart are vastly overblown. Utilities are competent and want this business. Poor reliability doesn't help business. But I do think charger access can be a problem for some users. Until we get to the point that apartment and condo dwellers can easily charge at grocery stores or at work or in their parking spots and we've built out more infrastructure away from our main highways, I think it's a legitimate critique. That said, again it starts going into trolling territory when the whining troll is a suburbanite who has a garage and is never going off the beaten path. I know a few of these. I don't think I've ever seen mud on their pickup tires.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Yet another question blown out of proportion. Acajack made a statement that brake maintenance wasn't required on his EV (Mach e), Warren said he has his brakes maintained.

Therefore at least some EVs have maintenance done to their brakes. Good information. Nobody's whining or suggesting that EV brakes are any worse than ICEv brakes, though the regen tends to use them less, and, well, this has been covered. Nothing to worry about here, just information that's interesting to me (and probably one or two others).

I think a lot of the non-mechanical non-aficionado types (ie most of us) do the squeaky wheel thing when it comes to auto maintenance. Except for stuff like oil changes of course.

And so for your brakes that means little attention unless they are a) less receptive to the pedal or b) noisy or c) vibrate.

Your EV owner is the same so if all seems fine with the brakes they won't do anything.