Halifax Stadium Discussion

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Empire

It seems that for the most part (rightly or wrongly) Moncton would consider Halifax its #1 rival and not Freddie or St. John?

You have to go big or stay home!

[Empire]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You have to go big or stay home!

Good attitude!

Truro may actually be some competition for Moncton. Truro bills itself as the Hub of Nova Scotia and it would probably be more centralized in terms of population spread. This would bode well for the Maritime distribution centre.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by beyeas

This criticism goes both ways in the Hali vs Moncton debate. There is no doubt that there are some that have that attitude in Halifax, but I have absolutely talked to just as many people from Moncton who have the same smug attitude and who believe that Moncton is the centre of the universe.

Largely this is a consequence (for both) of being a small fish in an even smaller pond... you end up having insane debates and which is "less small" when the fact is no one else in the world cares and it is actually counter-productive on the whole.

Maybe these people exist but everybody I knew in Halifax thought of it as a small town. They had all been to New York or Toronto or wherever (many were from Toronto) and were completely aware that Halifax is smaller and less important. You have to be pretty ignorant of the universe to think that Halifax is at the centre of it all. On top of this Halifax tends to be an enormously self-deprecating city, to the point where claiming that people there think they are the "centre of the universe" is almost comical.

The "centre of the Maritimes" idea seems to be a Moncton (err, "Hub City") construct. At the end of the day they seem a lot more worried about it and there's some projecting going on. It reminds me of kids at a backup school constructing a "rivalry" and complaining about perceived elitism at the other school. What's probably most infuriating for Moncton is not that Halifax is obsessed with being the major centre of the Maritimes, it's that people in Halifax don't even care very much about the other regional cities, which is true.

There isn't a rivalry. I guess it's possible that Moncton will get a CFL team but if people in Halifax were as enthusiastic about the CFL then, well, Halifax would have a team already. Or maybe not. Meh.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

My perspective on this issue may be a little unique, being a PEIslander who lived in Halifax for nine years, before moving to Moncton. I am somewhat of an outsider to both communities, which allows me to be an observer to both.

The attitudes in Moncton and Halifax are a little different, but help to define each community. This is not to say that all civic denizens of these two cities feel the same way. Of course most do not....

There is a "centre of the universe" (or at least centre of the Maritimes) attitude that exists in Halifax, most pervasively in the south end. You see this especially in families with deep roots in the community that have never lived elsewhere in the region, and who would view having to move out of Halifax with the deepest horror. In the past, I have jokingly referred to these people as thinking that "the known world ends north of Quinpool Road". The dominant position of Halifax in the province of NS helps to fuel this sentiment. Halifax has no rivals in NS.

In Moncton, there is more of an attitude of unbridled civic enthusiasm and boosterism. This is a recent phenomenon, born mostly out of the city's rebirth from the near death experience of the closure of the CN Shops in the late 1980's. The mantra is more one of the "power of positive thinking" rather than open disdain for others. This boosterism is occasionally unrealistic, but there is no question that it has contributed to the city's recent growth. While Halifax has no rivals in NS, Moncton has competitor communities in both Saint John and Fredericton which helps to fuel the city's competitve drive and ambition. It's important to grow to stay ahead of the competition.

This is my outsiders opinion on both Moncton and Halifax.

And my perspective on this issue may also be "unique" then, in that I in fact spent the majority of my life in various NB cities and know them very well (I am a NBer by birth), have spent a number of years living outside Canada, and have spent the last 8 years living in various Halifax neighbourhoods ranging from the south end to cole harbour to bedford.

While I can see some of your viewpoints, I greatly disagree with simply characterizing Halifax as having a negative "centre of the maritimes attitude" versus Moncton's positive "we are just being enthusiastic boosters".

I have heard on many many occasions from a variety of Monctonians incredibly snide/negative/degrading comments about Halifax and other cities. That isn't this passive positive "boosterism" that claim it to be... that is out and out looking down their nose at others. Not to say that that doesn't exist in Halifax, because it does and I am fine with admitting that. But saying that people from Moncton are just "boosters" is a biased characterization to be frank.

[bethanyhorne]

Thanks to Empire and fenwick16, I've updated the post with additional info. And thanks to whoever commented on the article, I get a feeling they are from this site?

http://halifax.openfile.ca/blog/curator-blog/explainer/2011/when-are-we-getting-stadium

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by bethanyhorne

Thanks to Empire and fenwick16, I've updated the post with additional info. And thanks to whoever commented on the article, I get a feeling they are from this site?

http://halifax.openfile.ca/blog/curator-blog/explainer/2011/when-are-we-getting-stadium

Reading the comments posted on your story, it is difficult to say if they are from this forum. There are people both for and against a stadium on this forum (and a few who just aren't interested).

In my opinion, if a 20,000 seat stadium can be built economically then it will have the greatest chance of attracting future professional tenants and naming rights (5000 seats could be added relatively cheaply and quickly). On the other hand, a more elaborate but smaller 10,000 seat stadium will not grab the attention of the majority who support a stadium. It will probably not get any attention from a potential CFL team owners either.

I think the best design is a simple design having the basic requirements, but with 20,000 permanent seats (but this is just my opinion).

[Keith P.]

I note that Bill Black - who seems far past his best before date these days - had a piece in AllNovaScotia decrying the call for a stadium, and essentially repeated the same thing on CBC News tonight. Nothing much new in any of it, just repeating the same argument that we can't afford it and that it would run an annual operating deficit. He did also offer the opinion on CBC that the soccer tournament was not a very big deal.

The guy just seems very tired and out of touch.

[WestEndHali]

Side note: FIFA delegates are in town this weekend.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I note that Bill Black - who seems far past his best before date these days - had a piece in AllNovaScotia decrying the call for a stadium, and essentially repeated the same thing on CBC News tonight. Nothing much new in any of it, just repeating the same argument that we can't afford it and that it would run an annual operating deficit. He did also offer the opinion on CBC that the soccer tournament was not a very big deal.

The guy just seems very tired and out of touch.

Your summary is right on. I saw the CBC news interview with Amy Smith if you could call it an interview. Amy asked a few silly standard questions and Bill replied with the most narrow, backward, negative, can't do, bias answers imaginable. No business case, no demand, no support, soccer is silly............................

His solution.......construct a couple of minor soccer fields and keep everyone quite. I hope this wasn't a platform kick-off for a run at Kelly's job. At least Kelly has the sense to know how badly a stadium is needed in HRM.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I note that Bill Black - who seems far past his best before date these days - had a piece in AllNovaScotia decrying the call for a stadium, and essentially repeated the same thing on CBC News tonight. Nothing much new in any of it, just repeating the same argument that we can't afford it and that it would run an annual operating deficit. He did also offer the opinion on CBC that the soccer tournament was not a very big deal.

The guy just seems very tired and out of touch.

I read the article also. For someone with such an impressive background, some of his comments were simply based on a lack of information. He stated that there were 10 cities with a better chance of being selected than Halifax. However, if he had done a bit of research he would know that there are only 7 Canadian cities, including Halifax, bidding to be host cities (the 2015 Pan-Am Games in Toronto/Hamilton have eliminated those two cities).

When a business leader, such as Bill Black mentions an annual operating deficit then why don't they rule out libraries, schools, hospitals, most community skating arenas, public parks, roads, etc.

One question, is it the same Bill Black that once ran Maritime Life?

[cormiermax]

Nothing bothers me more than when people talk about something like they know all about it, but they have no idea what there talking about. It seems like the CBC and anti everything crazies seek these people out.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I read the article also. For someone with such an impressive background, some of his comments were simply based on a lack of information. He stated that there were 10 cities with a better chance of being selected than Halifax. However, if he had done a bit of research he would know that there are only 7 Canadian cities, including Halifax, bidding to be host cities (the 2015 Pan-Am Games in Toronto/Hamilton have eliminated those two cities).

When a business leader, such as Bill Black mentions an annual operating deficit then why don't they rule out libraries, schools, hospitals, most community skating arenas, public parks, roads, etc.

One question, is it the same Bill Black that once ran Maritime Life?

Certainly the same Bill Black who ran for leader of the NS Conservative Party.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I read the article also. For someone with such an impressive background, some of his comments were simply based on a lack of information. He stated that there were 10 cities with a better chance of being selected than Halifax. However, if he had done a bit of research he would know that there are only 7 Canadian cities, including Halifax, bidding to be host cities (the 2015 Pan-Am Games in Toronto/Hamilton have eliminated those two cities).

When a business leader, such as Bill Black mentions an annual operating deficit then why don't they rule out libraries, schools, hospitals, most community skating arenas, public parks, roads, etc.

One question, is it the same Bill Black that once ran Maritime Life?

Yes, one and the same.

Life lesson: Just because a company does well does not mean the CEO is a genius. In fact I would suggest that most CEOs are anything but. If they are good, they are inspirational and are great motivators and visionaries. Unfortunately, most are not. They get promoted into the job from another role and usually flame out sooner or later. The qualities that make someone good in an operational role often do not translate well to a CEO position.

The Bill Black I saw on TV and have seen speak recently is not an impressive figure these days.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Life lesson: Just because a company does well does not mean the CEO is a genius. In fact I would suggest that most CEOs are anything but.

Many companies are successful in spite of their upper-level management (particularly larger companies with highly skilled/technical employees), and in Canada many more companies are monopolies or oligopolies so it basically doesn't matter how they are run.

I don't know much about Bill Black but the current game he's playing is won by appearing to by knowledgeable and by quietly sabotaging opponents, not through competence and actual correctness. I would guess that a vanishingly small percentage of people who heard his "10 other cities" comment knew that it was wrong or ever bothered to check. So he loses support from the 0.01% who are aware of the BS but gains credibility with the ignorant 99.99%.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by someone123

Many companies are successful in spite of their upper-level management (particularly larger companies with highly skilled/technical employees), and in Canada many more companies are monopolies or oligopolies so it basically doesn't matter how they are run.

I don't know much about Bill Black but the current game he's playing is won by appearing to by knowledgeable and by quietly sabotaging opponents, not through competence and actual correctness. I would guess that a vanishingly small percentage of people who heard his "10 other cities" comment knew that it was wrong or ever bothered to check. So he loses support from the 0.01% who are aware of the BS but gains credibility with the ignorant 99.99%.

This is what I was referring to as a really bad interview. It was incumbent upon Amy Smith to call him on it and say FIFI has said 6 cities will represent the games and that there are only 7 applicants. The possibility may exist to include a 7th so it would be feasible to have representation in the east (Halifax-Moncton). "What do you say to that BILL?" She just let him ramble with misinformation which I think is very irresponsible of CBC. They both should be called on it!!

[fenwick16]

I have done a couple more SketchUp models to illustrate what I think is important in a Haliifax-area stadium. These are just my personal views. However, the ides below are ones that I have seen in other stadiums either in person or through internet images (Ivor Wynne, BMO Bield, Pizza Hut Park, Ralph Wilson Stadium, the new Winnipeg Stadium, Stanford Stadium, Livestrong Sporting Park, and others).

I think the following points are important (but these are just my opinions).
1) a low cost design - this will probably be the biggest factor in the design. In my opinion, a stadium might be more enjoyable by following a simple design as opposed to having all enclosed concourses which will result in an expensive stadium.
2) meets the most basic requuirements (sufficient washrooms, wheelchair accessable, room for portable concession stands, changerooms ...)
3) shelter from the rain but an open-air design


I did the first model with the Pizza Hut Field in mind - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_Hut_Park. The Sierra stage 1 report lists the stadium portion of the complex to be $35 million. However, I think a Halifax-area stadium might need more shelter from the rain so I have added a partial roof over most of the seats.

Most of the soccer specific stadiums have sideline seats and end zones seats that are parallel to the field (rectangular shape). This configuration results in the seats being closest to the field while still being able to meet FIFA specifications for foul area allowances. It works quite well for soccer in which players are constantly in motion similar to hockey. The following model shows about 25,000 seats (I didn't show the changeroom tunnels; the changerooms would probably be located under the lower seating bowl on one side - specifications on the FIFA changeroom requirements are in this document - http://multimidia.brasil.gov.br/bibliote...cal_recommendations_and_requirements.pdf ).

Future club seats and media facilities could be at the top of the 2nd tier under the back of the roof (I showed a couple of short towers that could contain stairs and small elevators to make them wheelchair accessable).


I also did another model (although it looks similar, there are a few differences). In this model, there are 20,000 seats along the sidelines. For football, the action is more focused in one area for longer periods of time than in soccer. For football, and it should work for soccer also, it would be better to have the sideline seats angled so that people have a clearer view down the long Canadian football field. The center-most seats are slightly further from the field but I think it will provide a better viewing experience for spectators (many football stadium are built with some variation of this concept). Spectators won't have to twist their necks for long periods of time when the action is down-field.

This is another field view.

I like the wide open concourse images that I saw of Ivor Wynne Stadium (which I know will be torn down soon).

The area under the back of the roof provides support for the roof, leaves more sheltered space in the concourse below, and provides space for media and club seats for possible future expansion. The roof is loosely based on the Livestrong Sporting Park which is in Kansas City. (However, I am not a structural engineer, I studied chemical engineering. So this is just a conceptual image).

[Welkin]

Fenwick:
Nice work. I always do enjoy viewing your stadium drawings. I agree that the open space concept will work just fine for a Halifax stadium and that they really don't need to add the cost of an enclosed stadium. Do you foresee an all-seater stadium or do you think they will go with benches? The Pizza Hut stadium was built for $35M and the Columbus Crew stadium was built for $28 million, so I know HRM can build a decent 20-25,000 stadium with all the necessary amenities (washrooms, concessions....) but without some of the extra bells and whistles, for $60M or less. Thanks again for taking the time to add your drawings.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Welkin

Fenwick:
Nice work. I always do enjoy viewing your stadium drawings. I agree that the open space concept will work just fine for a Halifax stadium and that they really don't need to add the cost of an enclosed stadium. Do you foresee an all-seater stadium or do you think they will go with benches? The Pizza Hut stadium was built for $35M and the Columbus Crew stadium was built for $28 million, so I know HRM can build a decent 20-25,000 stadium with all the necessary amenities (washrooms, concessions....) but without some of the extra bells and whistles, for $60M or less. Thanks again for taking the time to add your drawings.

Thanks for the comments. I hope that if Halifax builds a stadium that they will design it with all counter-balanced, folding seats. This is not only for comfort but it also makes accessing the seats easier. However, I think that for easier access, and lower cost, the folding seats should be without armrests. If, for example, a row is 32 inches wide and bench seating or bucket style seating takes up 12 - 14" of that width then there isn't much room for spectators to get in and out of seating rows (folding seats with armrests will also restrict access). I am guessing that having all armrest-free, folding seats versus bench seats would add an extra couple of million to the stadium cost (my guesstimate is based on an additional cost of $100 per seat versus bench seating, but I have only a bit of information that I got from the internet, so my guess might be off).

An additional benefit to folding seats with backs is it provides additional safety as a guard from tripping to the adjacent lower row.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Thanks for the comments. I hope that if Halifax builds a stadium that they will design it with all counter-balanced, folding seats. This is not only for comfort but it also makes accessing the seats easier. However, I think that for easier access, and lower cost, the folding seats should be without armrests. If, for example, a row is 32 inches wide and bench seating or bucket style seating takes up 12 - 14" of that width then there isn't much room for spectators to get in and out of seating rows (folding seats with armrests will also restrict access). I am guessing that having all armrest-free, folding seats versus bench seats would add an extra couple of million to the stadium cost (my guesstimate is based on an additional cost of $100 per seat versus bench seating, but I have only a bit of information that I got from the internet, so my guess might be off).

An additional benefit to folding seats with backs is it provides additional safety as a guard from tripping to the adjacent lower row.

I really like the 20,000 seat design at mid-field....good work! A modest design with good seating capacity should be the goal. Some roof coverage is needed and to have expansion capability for media, club seats and regular seats rounds out a great design.

I wonder how the FIFA committee did with their site inspection today?

[worldlyhaligonian]

I love it. Great job... that would be perfect for a stadium!