ATLANTA TRANSIT (Marta, Beltline, Peachtree Streetcar, LovJoy Commuter, etc...)

[Chris Creech]

It would be so nice if eventually, at least one of these transit projects that's been kicked around for years actually saw some real concrete poured for a change. They do love to study stuff to death here, but it seems for most politios here that putting together a transit study is just a way to put it on the back burner till people forget about it.

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by Chris Creech

It would be so nice if eventually, at least one of these transit projects that's been kicked around for years actually saw some real concrete poured for a change. They do love to study stuff to death here, but it seems for most politios here that putting together a transit study is just a way to put it on the back burner till people forget about it.

But then we wouldn't have enough money for the studies silly!

And all the websites have to count for something! j/k

We got the Q BRT... thats kind of something... sort of ....

Does anyone live in that area or have any idea how well that plan is working?

[ATLaffinity]

Originally Posted by dante2308

Why on earth would you trade 60 miles of light rail for 10 miles of heavy rail?

To attract TALENT to Atlanta by making it a desirable place to live. People leave or don't live here in the first place because of the sprawl.

I'm sure buses are cheaper than light rail so you can't justify light rail. By your logic, MARTA should never have been built. Then we'd be like Birmingham or something.

[dante2308]

No that's your own personal hyperbole.

Aesthetically, to "talent" there is no reason a person would not move to Atlanta because they have 60 miles of light rail transit and 48 miles of heavy rail instead of 58 miles of heavy rail.

Think about that. Which is more attractive to someone who cares about the quality of transit? 108 miles of rail mass transit or 58 miles of it?

Which is functionally better for the city and the commuters?

And then commuter rail... which according to these guys: Brain train costs $5.32 million per mile. So then we can have 37 miles of commuter rail for every mile of heavy rail. We really have to ask ourselves if a single MARTA heavy rail stop in Roswell is worth 200 miles of commuter rail.

Buses are not trains, but commuter rail and light rail together accomplish exactly the same thing as heavy rail but at a tiny fraction of the cost.

I don't understand your argument. If you can please explain why heavy rail is better than light rail and therefore worth six times as much.

[BlindFatSnake]

http://www.ncppp.org/publications/Tr...ct%20Sheet.pdf

After reading eveyone concerns and opinions about the future of transit in metro Atlanta, I come away with these questions and observations... Especially after looking at Concept 3 - WTF...

1 - Atlanta doesn't have a comprehensive transit plans for the region (just lines on paper that may or may not be prioritized in phrases of implementation).

2 - The regional planners don't know what mode of transit for any single transit corridor (unless you care to count the various options: maybe light rail, maybe heavy rail, maybe commuter rail, maybe bus rapid transit - MORE IMPORTANTLY maybe just buses). Maybes do not get funded by the federal government - NEVER...

3 - The regional planners don't seem to know who will operate the next (or new) mode of transit in the region. Will it be MARTA, GRTA, CCT, or GCT? We don't know.

Consider this: in 2012 voters will be ask to go to the polls and vote on a 1 cent sales tax dedicated to a LIST OF PROJECTS. Is it better for the voters to know or not to know the following questions before they are ask to raise their sales taxes to fund specific projects?

a) what will their tax money build?
b) who will be in control of their tax money?
c) and, when will they see the tangible benefits of their tax money?

I think is is a major failure to ask votes to raise taxes and NOT know what the end result will be. Every other city that is seeking transit improvements have comprehensive plans they put before the voters.

In Atlanta, we seem to have concepts (not any one concrete plan, other than possibly the Beltline, which seems to drop MARTA connections like a hot potatoes).

Imagine telling voters in Gwinnett county they should vote for an increase in sales taxes to fund transit in metro Atlanta. Would they vote for this very vague plan? Or...

Would it be better to tell them a light rail line from Doraville MARTA station to Gwinnett Arena in Duluth with X number of stops will be built solely with Gwinnett county sales taxes, and to be operated by GCT? And, that none of your taxes will go to Clayton county for their rail projects?

I think specifics will get voters to the vote yes, and concepts (and a lack of accountability) will get voters to vote no. I'm just saying...

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by BlindFatSnake

http://www.ncppp.org/publications/Tr...ct%20Sheet.pdf

After reading eveyone concerns and opinions about the future of transit in metro Atlanta, I come away with these questions and observations... Especially after looking at Concept 3 - WTF...

1 - Atlanta doesn't have a comprehensive transit plans for the region (just lines on paper that may or may not be prioritized in phrases of implementation).

2 - The regional planners don't know what mode of transit for any single transit corridor (unless you care to count the various options: maybe light rail, maybe heavy rail, maybe commuter rail, maybe bus rapid transit - MORE IMPORTANTLY maybe just buses). Maybes do not get funded by the federal government - NEVER...

3 - The regional planners don't seem to know who will operate the next (or new) mode of transit in the region. Will it be MARTA, GRTA, CCT, or GCT? We don't know.

Consider this: in 2012 voters will be ask to go to the polls and vote on a 1 cent sales tax dedicated to a LIST OF PROJECTS. Is it better for the voters to know or not to know the following questions before they are ask to raise their sales taxes to fund specific projects?

a) what will their tax money build?
b) who will be in control of their tax money?
c) and, when will they see the tangible benefits of their tax money?

I think is is a major failure to ask votes to raise taxes and NOT know what the end result will be. Every other city that is seeking transit improvements have comprehensive plans they put before the voters.

In Atlanta, we seem to have concepts (not any one concrete plan, other than possibly the Beltline, which seems to drop MARTA connections like a hot potatoes).

Imagine telling voters in Gwinnett county they should vote for an increase in sales taxes to fund transit in metro Atlanta. Would they vote for this very vague plan? Or...

Would it be better to tell them a light rail line from Doraville MARTA station to Gwinnett Arena in Duluth with X number of stops will be built solely with Gwinnett county sales taxes, and to be operated by GCT? And, that none of your taxes will go to Clayton county for their rail projects?

I think specifics will get voters to the vote yes, and concepts (and a lack of accountability) will get voters to vote no. I'm just saying...

I agree , but I think you are being a little hard on concept 3. While alot of those are just lines on map... many of those have been considered in planning by different agencies.

What I like about Concept 3 is it brings most of them together, so when MARTA plans one project and GRTA plans another one and Cobb County considers LRT they can leave future options for bringing things together better.

Example... The city of Atlanta is using streetcar tracks than LRT trains will be able to run on, which could connect to the beltline and/or a Cobb LRT line.

The Cobb LRT might meet with the Beltline and could feasibly travel on to Emory is they use LRT for that alignment.

I have also noticed tons of subtle clues in that map about random details from who has more will to fund things and who doesn't (There is noticeably more LRT in Cobb/Cherokee than in Gwinnett, a larger county). There is also less commuter rail in Cobb. However, that is our busiest freight corridor and there is a huge railroad junction that needs to be overhauled. It would be much more costly to built commuter rail in Cobb vs. Gwinnett, because of the level of freight traffic.

I've grown to respect the Concept 3 more over time, but that doesn't mean it isn't subject to change or will completely happen. It's just a road map to change.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by shivtim

Cybele, I'm not sure you even read any of the things you post.

Well, I don't know how in tarnation a man is supposed to know everything these days, there is only so many times in the day.

[delarosa]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

There are also dense residential areas near Piedmont and Juniper that would take advantage of the MARTA connection and easier access to retail stores along Ponce. There is also ample room for more of this type of development in the area as well. It has both the density and the ability to grow.

I think this is absolutely the case. Not only would there be increased use from the various neighborhoods in the east (Fourth Ward, Poncey Highland, Va Highlands and even depending on the terminus, Druid Hills, etc.) towards town, whether it be due to aesthetics or timing (in the case of hypothetical dedicated lanes) or in order to terminate near North Ave or simply use it as a connecting point to the rest of the network, but it'd be very convenient for various types of users traveling to destinations like Whole Foods, the future City Hall development, shopping in Highlands, Plaza movies, L5P, the Olmsted linear park from both directions. This is to say nothing of the interchange with the (perhaps distant) future Beltline node @ City Hall or even longer term options like using Boulevard to tie the Ponce line with MLK. For that matter, it's a shame Monroe(Boulevard) becomes so narrow because would only be a bit further to tie MLK to Piedmont Park, though in theory the same could be probably done extending a streetcar down Edgewood to wherever the north of Dekalb Ave portion of the Beltline starts.

I think the other point worth noting is that, besides what would likely be the noted welcomed property value increase for those already in condos, perhaps the bigger impact is in development of strategically located swaths of currently vacant or low density. Yes, this would increase tax revenue and cyclically more riders for the system, but IMO it would be a final nail in the coffin of the rampant crime (drugs and prostitution) between say Krispy Kreme as far as Freedom Pkwy or so. In particular, the stretch on both sides of Boulevard would see drastic changes.

[Pessimistic Observer]

be there for the inaugural ride lol
http://www.ajc.com/news/dekalb/bus-r...ts-743854.html
oh wait i forgot everyone hates busses

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by Pessimistic Observer

be there for the inaugural ride lol
http://www.ajc.com/news/dekalb/bus-r...ts-743854.html
oh wait i forgot everyone hates busses

Ahh! Thanks for this. I thought it had it started a couple of weeks ago!

I hope this does well/works effectively. Even though I want to see some major rail expansions, this technology will be very important going into the future given our low-density build.

I also wish Gwinnett County would chip in to see this extended to Park Place as this could be done with little or no capital investment and could link people to commonly used shopping areas for people people in the Stone Mountain area and actually introduce a few Gwinnett Commuters to MARTA. (hopefully giving it a more positive light)

[BlindFatSnake]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

I agree , but I think you are being a little hard on concept 3. While alot of those are just lines on map... many of those have been considered in planning by different agencies.

What I like about Concept 3 is it brings most of them together, so when MARTA plans one project and GRTA plans another one and Cobb County considers LRT they can leave future options for bringing things together better.

Example... The city of Atlanta is using streetcar tracks than LRT trains will be able to run on, which could connect to the beltline and/or a Cobb LRT line.

The Cobb LRT might meet with the Beltline and could feasibly travel on to Emory is they use LRT for that alignment.

I've grown to respect the Concept 3 more over time, but that doesn't mean it isn't subject to change or will completely happen. It's just a road map to change.

I agree that Concept 3 is a work-in-progress, but I am continually dismayed by the fact that other states, regions, and cities are getting federal funding for their projects because they have moved from the concept stage of planning to the concrete stage of implementation.

NC, as well as other states, may get additional funding for HSR due to newly elected Republican governors in Ohio and Wisconsin halting HSR plans in those states... It's really silly that those governors believe they can redirect the funds to other state projects... That would be like applying for a home improvement loan and buying a car instead, which IMHO amounts to fraud.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/201...uld-bring.html

[testarossa50]

Originally Posted by dante2308

No that's your own personal hyperbole.

Aesthetically, to "talent" there is no reason a person would not move to Atlanta because they have 60 miles of light rail transit and 48 miles of heavy rail instead of 58 miles of heavy rail.

Think about that. Which is more attractive to someone who cares about the quality of transit? 108 miles of rail mass transit or 58 miles of it?

Which is functionally better for the city and the commuters?

And then commuter rail... which according to these guys: Brain train costs $5.32 million per mile. So then we can have 37 miles of commuter rail for every mile of heavy rail. We really have to ask ourselves if a single MARTA heavy rail stop in Roswell is worth 200 miles of commuter rail.

Buses are not trains, but commuter rail and light rail together accomplish exactly the same thing as heavy rail but at a tiny fraction of the cost.

I don't understand your argument. If you can please explain why heavy rail is better than light rail and therefore worth six times as much.

These numbers are completely wrong. A modern cost of light rail on existing freight infrastructure is closer to $20MM/mile--that's what Florida is paying for SunRail under nearly the exact same circumstances. (Except the rail line Florida is far less important to CSX's network than the one to Athens, which is the mainline to NYC. Right-of-way acquisition is going to be vastly more expensive.)

Also, your comparison is far from apples-to-apples. The main reason heavy rail estimates are so high is because they are going on very specific routes that require overpasses, tunnels, and so forth. If you had light rail follow these alignments, it would cost vastly, vastly more. Conversely, if you bought up a mainline and replaced it with heavy rail, all of this would be relatively easy.

For another example, Portland has 50-odd miles of light rail at a soaking-wet cost of $3 billion. $60 million a mile. That's because it "acts" like a heavy rail system, with overpasses, underpasses, dedicated right of way, and so forth.

Next time you're on MARTA, look at the tracks between the East Point and College Park stations. They really aren't that sophisticated--it's just regular ribbon rail laid on concrete ties and normal ballast, with a third rail on the side, and chain link fences protecting the area. The electrification component is costly, but saves tons of money on operation.

These cheap commuter rail lines that work on existing freight lines only have a handful of services a day. They are worth investigating, but they aren't the slam-dunk they may seem.

I would like to see light rail built to complement our existing transit system--for instance, the Lovejoy line could just save the final haul into downtown and usher riders onto MARTA at the East Point station for the last leg (presumably most riders will have to hop aboard MARTA no matter where the train ends up anyhow). But everyone seems all excited about a train station downtown for some reason (I'm sure I'll be raked over the coals in a moment for questioning the multimodal terminal).

[BlindFatSnake]

Originally Posted by testarossa50

These numbers are completely wrong. A modern cost of light rail on existing freight infrastructure is closer to $20MM/mile--that's what Florida is paying for SunRail under nearly the exact same circumstances. (Except the rail line Florida is far less important to CSX's network than the one to Athens, which is the mainline to NYC. Right-of-way acquisition is going to be vastly more expensive.)

But everyone seems all excited about a train station downtown for some reason (I'm sure I'll be raked over the coals in a moment for questioning the multimodal terminal).

I agree, the multi-modal terminal is outdated and should NOT be built as currently (or previously) designed as a convergence of multiple transit options. IMHO, I would like to see light rail connections to MARTA heavy rail stations wherever feasible with the mandate that other regional bus systems cannot enter MARTA territory. What's good for the goose is good for the gander...The Athens commuter train can end at the Doraville "multi-modal station" and NOT have to travel to downtown Atlanta.

And, the Lovejoy commuter train to downtown could/should end at East Point and the mode of transport should be light rail... I'm just saying...

[jew4life4948]

"The city of Charlotte also plans to start construction on a 1.4-mile segment of a streetcar line from Time Warner Cable Arena to Presbyterian Hospital. The city won a $25 million federal grant earlier this month to help pay for the $37 million project.

Read more: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/201...#ixzz15lBpIrJx "

Weird coincidence.

[cybele]

Well, it looks like they are building a thing down in Buckhead to hook up 400 to the MARTA.

http://buckheadcid.com/marta_concourse_bridge

[ATLaffinity]

Maybe this Bus Rapid Transit is the way to go.

[echinatl]

Originally Posted by ATLaffinity

Maybe this Bus Rapid Transit is the way to go.

40 dollars for the upgrade is a good deal, but I am still behind high speed Rickshaws.

[rythym]

Maybe I don't fully understand, but that just looks frightening. Buses use all lanes. So the buses will be passing on the shoulder, or the right at well over 100mph? Exit ramps may get a little dicey.

[Pessimistic Observer]

Originally Posted by rythym

Maybe I don't fully understand, but that just looks frightening. Buses use all lanes. So the buses will be passing on the shoulder, or the right at well over 100mph? Exit ramps may get a little dicey.

just in case you guys missed it
the onion is a parody online news network
like april fools day just 24/7 365
so dont take there stuff seriously its ment to humor

[BlindFatSnake]

Originally Posted by ATLaffinity

Maybe this Bus Rapid Transit is the way to go.

That hybrid bus contraption with the nose of a HSR car was indeed FUGLY...