[St. John's] Transport development (Highways, Airport, and Public Transit)

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by ConundrumNL

Have had several hairy encounters on Old Topsail Road since it was installed. I actually wrote a member of the city traffic committee about it, but never got a response. There needs to be an education programme.

I don't why they think they can jus put them in and expect people to know how to use them.

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

For one thing there is little demand for a service. Despite Metrobus not being considered a great transit system, there are few complaints about it. St. John's doesn't have enough traffic congestion, and Metrobus can't get out of that congestion anyways, for most people to consider the idea of getting on a bus as opposed to driving.

I saw somewhere recently about how Halifax has increased spending on their transit considerably in recent years and ridership hasn't changed.

Sorry - But I disagree with you whole-heartedly.

Referencing Halifax is not a great example. It's not just "throwing money" at something that will increase ridership. We've been doing that for years with Metrobus and clearly it's done nothing. They haven't really done much to improve their system beyond modest improvements, expansion of routes, etc. Nothing ground-breaking.

There's no demand for a service because we're completely divorced from the concept of communal transport. We've accepted we need to use our privately owned cars - the public has moved beyond expecting a minimum standard in public transit. That doesn't mean there is no need.

Let's review some facts that will reveal how it's not what people want but what society needs in order to move forward. We complain readily about unaffordable housing - but we don't about unaffordable transport. It's because housing has remained a need for the public. However, if you research, you'll be surprised to find that, in fact, many low-middle income families spend MORE on transport per month than on housing! In other words, the burden is immense. We've simply accepted it, and that's why we we don't complain about not having it. The Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corp (CMHC) qualifies any family spending more than ~30% of their household income on housing/shelter to be spending too much (ie. housing is unaffordable). At the same time, some of these same families are spending as much as 40% on transport per month (lease/payments, gas, maintenance, tolls, insurance, etc.)

This isn't about what the public wants, it's about what they need.

Presently, the SJ Metro Area is facing several challenges:

1. Stagnant/decreasing public transit ridership with an unattractive reputation.
2. Steadily increasing private-automobile ownership (increasing ecological damage and fossil fuel dependence) with associated rising costs for owners.
3. Substantial parking shortages in the downtown.
4. Traffic congestion, particularly at peak hours.
5. Over-stressed roads and transportation-based infrastructure.
6. Continued migration to the City’s periphery.
7. Poor land-use with vast urban “parking-wastelands”.
8. Unsustainable densities - (sub)urban sprawl.
9. Fumbling retention and attraction of young professionals.
10. An aging population.
11. Struggles to keep up with population growth, housing shortages, unaffordable housing.
12. Inaccessible areas/disjointed movement throughout the City.
13. Increasing feeling of "placelessness"

How else are we going to begin dealing with these problems? A myriad of solutions may be proposed. However, transit is one solution, which, if properly financed and executed, would begin to remedy all of these aforementioned issues.

Not to mention, the list of negative consequences attributed to the privately owned automobile is extensive:

1. Traffic burdens our streets and strains our infrastructure
2. Cars are costly, particularly when considering indirect/hidden costs that are not paid by car-owners
3. Car-related accidents are frequent, costly and lethal
4. Exhaust emissions and fossil fuel consumption degrade ecological standards
5. Excessive and prevalent noise pollution
6. Public health (decreased air quality, smog, road rage/stress, disincentive to physical activity)
7. An anti-social/isolating activity
8. Hindered productivity
9. Parking creates car-wastelands and consumes valuable space in the downtown
10. Car-oriented planning supports poor land use/densities, box-stores and malls while draining vibrant downtowns

So these are some of the problems - do you really want me to get into the benefits/advantages of transit? haha

[mrjanejacobs]

Social Benefits

• Provides a more reliable and secure means of transportation for young people, students, the lower class, the lower-middle class, seniors, economizers, immigrants and the most vulnerable members of society.
• Facilitates large-scale urban events (parades, firework displays, concerts, sporting events, festivals, etc).
• Driving is an anti-social and isolating experience while public transit is a social one – one that is suitable for the friendly and interactive population in the region.
• Communal transportation fosters social mixing and community building.
• Promotion of nightlife by providing a reliable, safe, and economical means of returning home later in the evening while dually alleviating the financial burden of costly taxis and often inconvenient car-pool schemes.
• Combats marginalization of minority groups and other devalued members of society.
• Reinforces the St. John's Cycling Master Plan, and supports competitiveness of alternative means of transportation, principally active transportation.
• Provides a more speedy and reliable transportation at rush-hour and in poor weather conditions by eliminating unpredictability quotient.
• Public transit supports and promotes “place-making” (the sense of place)
• Rural visitors that are unfamiliar or uncomfortable with city-driving can park-and-ride at rail termini.
• Tourists and visitors will be able to more independently navigate and maneuver throughout the City.
• Closes the equity gap between travel modes, by favoring a socially, ecologically and economically sustainable model for transportation rather than a detrimental one.
• Builds an operative working relationship between involved municipalities while strengthening economic ties throughout the region.
• Addresses the aging population and helps secure the future mobility of seniors and our ever-aging population.


Environmental/Health Benefits

• Promotes active transportation in combination with public transportation (cycling, walking, rollerblading + transit).
• Reduces consumption of fossil fuels.
• Promotes/implements a more sustainable land-use strategy.
• Reduces greenhouse gas emissions and other air contaminants.
• A commuting alternative in bad weather for those nervous of driving - safety and comfort of residents.
• Personal automobile ownership will decrease, thus decreasing the environmental cost associated.
• Promotes healthier lifestyles.
• The environmental benefit of having our City less polluted by vehicular traffic.
• Increased public health will have long-term health benefits and save money in health care.
• Appeals to society’s better sense on the levels of environmental responsibility, healthy living and responsible budgeting.
• Will assist in reducing the frequency of drinking and driving in the City by providing affordable alternatives.

Infrastructure Benefits

• Alleviates stress on our current transportation infrastructures (roads and highways).
• Decreases the demand for new roads and car-oriented infrastructures.
• Reduces need for parking in the downtown with park-and-ride facilities at suburban rail stations.
• Alleviates traffic congestion/frustration throughout the City, particularly at rush-hour periods.
• Saves money on necessary future infrastructure projects (ex. paradise traffic congestion problems).
• Reduces traffic congestion.
• Establishing iconic infrastructure – promoting a renewed image of the City.


'City Image'

• Promotes a forward-thinking image of the City.
• Reassures young professionals and prospective residents of the region that our Metropolitan Area is rich in top-quality amenities and services.
• Helps to modernize the City's infrastructure and the character of the City.
• Helps to attract and retain young professionals.
• Revitalizes downtown area – attracting commerce back to the central business district from inaccessible box stores and malls.
• Providing 'impressive' infrastructure to establish a more ‘modern’ image for the City.
• Alleviates the stigma often associated with buses and public transit by investing in public transportation as a regional priority.
• Heightened investment in transportation infrastructure has a legacy potential for the City and its current administration, as well as the booming economic era.
• Stations can be strategically located to allow planners and policy-makers to guide more sustainable and responsible long-term development.
• Rail transportation involves an element of permanence and spurs development along the route, particularly at stations.
• Stations can activate neighborhoods, creating new public spaces and pedestrian activity.
• A city that elects to pursue the socially responsible and sustainable alternative.

[PoscStudent]

Congestion in St. John's is not bad at all. There are certains areas that are bad at times, but it's still not a maor problem. I wouldn't give up my vehicle, even if transit was better.

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

Congestion in St. John's is not bad at all. There are certains areas that are bad at times, but it's still not a maor problem. I wouldn't give up my vehicle, even if transit was better.

Congestion isn't bad? haha - have you ever been on Topsail Road in the morning? Paradise? Kenmount Road? I used to live in CBS and it's not completely out of the ordinary to be stuck in traffic for an hour at rush hour (sometimes).

Moreover, the thing with congestion is that it's unpredictable as well. Congestion in cities only ever gets worse... the rate at which we're buying cars and the rate at which the population is growing is not the same as the rate at which we're building roads. And eventually these roads will saturate. They always do. Saturation = congestion. As the problem worsens (and it is, readily), we're going to wait until our roads are so congested we can't get anywhere before we look at long-term solutions?

Moreover, just because you would never give up your car (anecdotal), it doesn't mean there aren't thousands of people who would (namely students, lower/lower-middle class families, immigrants, seniors, economizers, etc.)

The benefits of even say 5000 people opting to transition from car to transit as a principle means of transport would have huge pay-offs for the City's local economy.

[Marty_Mcfly]

During the last 2 years in St. John's I noticed a large increase in congestion during peak hours. I always avoided Kenmount/Topsail/Torbay during rush hour because they're nightmares, but I noticed Prince Phillip/Columbus get worse over time. Prince Philip from Westerland to Wicklow used to only take me about 7-8 minutes a few years back, but before I moved it was taking upwards of 15-20 minutes each day. I think congestion is low on the Outer Ring Road but the amount of crazies outweighs any benefits from using the highway. One accident will get you stuck in traffic up there for hours. That fact may be the reason why there's an increase in crosstown traffic on Prince Philip.

[mrjanejacobs]

^ For sure. I have noticed problems escalating in recent years (and I'm not often in St.John's, so I really see the differences as I there at sample periods, say every 6-12 months).

It will improve temporarily when the TGH opens. But let's look at how long it took for that to be finished... haha, so it will likely be the last major road we'll see built for a long time.

Reminder: Congestion is just ONE of the problems. haha

[Copes]

I just want to chime in and say I agree with everything Jane is saying. I've only recently started driving myself, and the "problem areas" are quite clear, and quite brutal to get stuck in.

The problem is that regional transit is needed. Topsail Road, Torbay Road, Kenmount Road... they won't get better because the people using them are primarily from Paradise / CBS, Torbay, and Mount Pearl respectively. So, unless other towns and cities in the area get on board, those areas will continue to be brutal.

I suppose though, all those areas are on the St. John's fringe. If we improve transit in the city core, it will only increase the desire for people to avoid sprawl.

None the less, without regional transportation, the issue will never be solved. Unfortunately, regional cooperation is a dirty word around here.

As always, I blame many of our issues on incompetent politicians.

[SignalHillHiker]

I hate driving outside of Empire Avenue.

Even going to the Avalon Mall pisses me off. Driving to my parents' place in Mount Pearl, I generally take Pitts Memorial Drive, even though they live on Mount Carson just off Kenmount Road.

Downtown, I don't mind the congestion... it's part of the charm and I do NOT want a downtown that's designed to make things easier for cars. I've spent enough time in large, mainland cities to know I prefer conditions like ours - that discourage people from driving downtown.

Perhaps if the city followed MrJane's suggestion for Water Street, they could also copy London's lead and require permits for vehicular entry into the designated downtown zone - much as we do with parking zones. Everyone else would have to park in the park-and-ride parkades at either end. A massive parkade right by the entrance to Pitts would be great.

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I hate driving outside of Empire Avenue.

Even going to the Avalon Mall pisses me off. Driving to my parents' place in Mount Pearl, I generally take Pitts Memorial Drive, even though they live on Mount Carson just off Kenmount Road.

Downtown, I don't mind the congestion... it's part of the charm and I do NOT want a downtown that's designed to make things easier for cars. I've spent enough time in large, mainland cities to know I prefer conditions like ours - that discourage people from driving downtown.

Perhaps if the city followed MrJane's suggestion for Water Street, they could also copy London's lead and require permits for vehicular entry into the designated downtown zone - much as we do with parking zones. Everyone else would have to park in the park-and-ride parkades at either end. A massive parkade right by the entrance to Pitts would be great.

haha exactly. It's actually part of my 25 year plan. That is, eventually once we have an established regional transportation strategy, we can introduce disincentivizers and road-pricing policies which would go beyond giving two options, but instead, it would pressure motorists into transitioning to transit.

Of course, it's not possible for such policies now because our system is too abysmal.

I also hesitate in mentioning such things on this forum because the first step is to convince others that transit is urgently needed and undeniable beneficial for society.

My fantasy is for downtown St.John's to be more or less pedestrian-only with certain roads for low-density traffic, service trucks, taxis, etc. Many, many, many european cities have pedestrian-only centres. The key to making that a reality: transit.

[SignalHillHiker]

That'd be ideal. I'd love to see New Gower, Waldegrave, and Harbour Drive remain open to regular traffic. Water from the Convention Centre to TD Place could be pedestrian/tram only, including side streets like George.

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by Marty_Mcfly

During the last 2 years in St. John's I noticed a large increase in congestion during peak hours. I always avoided Kenmount/Topsail/Torbay during rush hour because they're nightmares, but I noticed Prince Phillip/Columbus get worse over time. Prince Philip from Westerland to Wicklow used to only take me about 7-8 minutes a few years back, but before I moved it was taking upwards of 15-20 minutes each day. I think congestion is low on the Outer Ring Road but the amount of crazies outweighs any benefits from using the highway. One accident will get you stuck in traffic up there for hours. That fact may be the reason why there's an increase in crosstown traffic on Prince Philip.

I've noticed it worsening in areas but not to the point that I'd consider public transit. I went from Topsail Road to downtown in around 10 minutes yesterday at 4:45. I did Kenmount Rd. last week at around 5ish and it wasn't to bad, and the outer ring road makes a big difference.

[statbass]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

I've noticed it worsening in areas but not to the point that I'd consider public transit. I went from Topsail Road to downtown in around 10 minutes yesterday at 4:45. I did Kenmount Rd. last week at around 5ish and it wasn't to bad, and the outer ring road makes a big difference.

I don't think the issue here is so much about the current state of traffic congestion but the projected state, say, in 10-15 years. I think it's much better (and strategic for that matter) to develop proper regional public transit and create a more open-minded culture around public transit rather than dish out band-aid solutions when it's too late. Let's be honest, traffic congestion is relative, no matter what city you live in there'll be complaints regarding traffic, I guess it's your tolerance level that changes depending on what city you live in. The fact of the matter remains that public transit here is dismal and changes are needed. I've used the park-and-ride in Ottawa and it's a good system, I really think it can be implemented here... with regional cooperation, of course. I'd gladly avail of it!

[AnUrbanLife]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

I've noticed it worsening in areas but not to the point that I'd consider public transit. I went from Topsail Road to downtown in around 10 minutes yesterday at 4:45. I did Kenmount Rd. last week at around 5ish and it wasn't to bad, and the outer ring road makes a big difference.

I can appreciate that many people won't ever take transit, they will even go so far as to sacrifice other areas of their lives in order to continue driving, but what I think is sometimes over looked is even they should be very pro transit.

A good transit system also makes the personal car experience better. That point is often lost in the discourse and is very important.

Shorter commute times, less stress, less stopping and going therefor less fuel consumption and more parking options as well as more convenient parking. Better transit is better for everyone.

[mrjanejacobs]

Well said!

Aside: I learned in school actually that there was a study conducted once to pinpoint what percentage of the population would never use transit. The results estimated that somewhere between 15-25% of the population would never consider opting for transit.

I know that number would be much higher in already car dependant places like SJ, but still, there is always huge room for growth.

More than anything, SJ transit is dealing with a branding crisis.

[AnUrbanLife]

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

Well said!

Aside: I learned in school actually that there was a study conducted once to pinpoint what percentage of the population would never use transit. The results estimated that somewhere between 15-25% of the population would never consider opting for transit.

I know that number would be much higher in already car dependant places like SJ, but still, there is always huge room for growth.

More than anything, SJ transit is dealing with a branding crisis.

Interesting, thanks. I wonder how that percentage was arrived at. If it was a simple question, I wonder what the exact wording was, it can hugely affect the outcome.

Also MRJaneJ all of your transit points were appreciated, well done.

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by AnUrbanLife

I can appreciate that many people won't ever take transit, they will even go so far as to sacrifice other areas of their lives in order to continue driving, but what I think is sometimes over looked is even they should be very pro transit.

A good transit system also makes the personal car experience better. That point is often lost in the discourse and is very important.

Shorter commute times, less stress, less stopping and going therefor less fuel consumption and more parking options as well as more convenient parking. Better transit is better for everyone.

I'm not against improving transit I just don't like the idea of investing a ton of money if we can't get people to use it. It seems like in most places they're putting more money into transit with no return.

[Marty_Mcfly]

You can't increase ridership without investment, and it's hard to invest without an increase in ridership. It's a real catch 22 really

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by Marty_Mcfly

You can't increase ridership without investment, and it's hard to invest without an increase in ridership. It's a real catch 22 really

Well I think there's likely a lot of inefficiencies that could be found. For instance all the routes use the same size busses, yet they're rarely even close to full. I passed a bus at rush hour yesterday by the Village with two passengers on it.

[statbass]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

Well I think there's likely a lot of inefficiencies that could be found. For instance all the routes use the same size busses, yet they're rarely even close to full. I passed a bus at rush hour yesterday by the Village with two passengers on it.

I agree with you, there are definitely inefficiencies with the current bus system that need to be addressed - but this should be included in an overarching strategic plan. I think the public transit needs to be improved in two steps: 1) tackling inefficiencies in the current system, 2) investment into a more sustainable system. It's not easy and will involve quite a bit of investment but the amount of money spent on upkeep and development of roadways should put this into perspective.