Lloyd District News

[2oh1]

...rethink a few things? The entire Lloyd area is undergoing a massive transition. Over 650 new homes are being built, the mall is being rehabbed, there's a brand new streetcar extension. Clearly, many things are being rethought, so to speak.

Nordstrom leaving is no death knell for Lloyd Center. It may even prove to be a positive rather than a negative since the owners of the mall have already announced they're buying the space and breaking it up into something new.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

...rethink a few things? The entire Lloyd area is undergoing a massive transition. Over 650 new homes are being built, the mall is being rehabbed, there's a brand new streetcar extension. Clearly, many things are being rethought, so to speak.

Nordstrom leaving is no death knell for Lloyd Center. It may even prove to be a positive rather than a negative since the owners of the mall have already announced they're buying the space and breaking it up into something new.

Yeah, I don't see the mall going anywhere, but I do see it adapting the the changing neighborhood. It was a unique mall when it was first constructed, maybe it will become a unique mall in how it adapts to changes.

[pdxtex]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

...rethink a few things? The entire Lloyd area is undergoing a massive transition. Over 650 new homes are being built, the mall is being rehabbed, there's a brand new streetcar extension. Clearly, many things are being rethought, so to speak.

Nordstrom leaving is no death knell for Lloyd Center. It may even prove to be a positive rather than a negative since the owners of the mall have already announced they're buying the space and breaking it up into something new.

the lloyd district is heading in the right direction but the lloyd center is not. losing nordstrom and the countless mall vacancies and cheesy stores popping up prove this. if the mall is going to compete on a regional level its going to have to do more then just do some remodeling and landscaping. the apartments and new residential going in are more of a reflection of urbanist trends that would probably have happened even if the mall didnt exist. its the mall thats outdated and the odd player out. malls around the country in fact are scrambling for shoppers' dollars as more and more competition from the internet retailers enter the market. not to mention, have you noticed the demographic change taking place in north portland recently, or rather, the last 15 years.

clearly the gentrification, rejuvenation, inner city rebirth (choose your pc term) is driving up home values and populating the area with a more discerning customer (more household $$$), clearly not the current demographic that the lloyd center now serves. so what can they do? well i dont know. im not an urban planner anymore but one thing is for certain, as the area becomes more urban and dense, its current retail mix of budget priced homewares, sports attire, and wetzels pretzels is going to see fewer and fewer customers. logistically its in a good location, close to major arterials, transit and the highway but presently, its housing subpar stores and acts more like a afterschool hang out for thuggy kids. how many malls can you think of that have regular gang shoot outs in their parking lot or inside the mall in a shoe store??? yeah. just that one...

[zilfondel]

Well, there was a mall shooting @Clackamas TC...

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

the lloyd district is heading in the right direction but the lloyd center is not.

What?! They just announced plans for renovation.

Originally Posted by pdxtex

im not an urban planner anymore but one thing is for certain, as the area becomes more urban and dense, its current retail mix of budget priced homewares, sports attire, and wetzels pretzels is going to see fewer and fewer customers. logistically its in a good location, close to major arterials, transit and the highway but presently, its housing subpar stores and acts more like a afterschool hang out for thuggy kids.

As the area becomes, the mall will change.

pdxtex, you're complaining that Lloyd Center hasn't kept up with the changes that haven't yet happened in the neighborhood. The fact that the mall is undergoing renovation just as a ton of other construction around it is ramping up shows that the new owners (note that I said "new owners") bought the property for a reason and they're paying attention. Nordstrom just announced today that they're planning on leaving next year. The same day, the owners of the mall announced they plan to purchase the Nordstrom spot and change it rather than just lease it to another anchor retailer. Clearly, this shows they have a plan, and that's a good thing.

The Lloyd neighborhood is finally beginning to change. The mall is changing. All of this is good news.

Originally Posted by pdxtex

how many malls can you think of that have regular gang shoot outs in their parking lot or inside the mall in a shoe store??? yeah. just that one...

Whatever dude.

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

have you noticed the demographic change taking place in north portland recently, or rather, the last 15 years.

That's exactly the point you're missing. Those changes you mention over the last 15 years didn't happen in the Lloyd district. Lloyd is a bizarre jewel that went unnoticed by planners for decades. Huge changes are coming to Lloyd and inner SE. Other parts of Portland saw those changes come to their neighborhoods over the past decade or two, but Lloyd was mostly stagnant by comparison. I get that you're impatient. I am too. But after decades of being overlooked, finally Lloyd has started to blossom. Hassalo is a sign of things to come. It's a starting point for what the neighborhood will become, for better and for worse (the worse being that the neighborhood is going to get expensive).

As Lloyd evolves into a neighborhood rather than a collection of awkwardly spaced office towers, the mall will change as well. But it's silly to expect the mall to have evolved years ahead of the neighborhood. I wouldn't be surprised if, a decade from now, Sears is gone and Nordstrom returns in its spot.

[pdxstreetcar]

they should move the Macys into the old Nordstrom which is the newest part of the mall and demo the old Macys to open that up to Multnomah, much more so than what was recently proposed for a new south entrance

there is the Nordstrom downtown obviously, it was also kind of odd to have two department stores of the same chain so close together

[cab]

This is just a reflection of the beginning of the end of big box. These monster stores are hitting the end of their lifecycle. They'll continue for a few years on the edge in suburban malls, but the cost to manage that much merchandise and space doesn't make sense. The urban core is beginning to specialize as you see in more mature cultures. There is a reason we have 5000 years of a basic city paradigm. The suburban mall superstore experiment is failing after 40 years. Subsidized patterns of growth wont last. The Mall experience will change, just not sure the new owners will soft land or go full on re purpose.

[maccoinnich]

Design review drawings [5MB PDF] for the Lloyd Center renovations. Sadly, it's a pretty cosmetic scheme. Better than nothing though.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

Design review drawings [5MB PDF] for the Lloyd Center renovations. Sadly, it's a pretty cosmetic scheme. Better than nothing though.

It basically looks like their grand plan is to update the entrances and add that new entrance on the south side, and then slap some new signs on the southern parking garage. Not really much of an improvement. Still wondering what they will do with Nordstrom, my guess is they will let it sit empty until they can find a new tenant to move into it.

[2oh1]

Awe, boo. Such minor cosmetic changes.

[maccoinnich]

Brutal:

This memo summarizes Design Commission design direction provided on March 6, 2014.

Overall Concept

 Given the on-going transformation of the surrounding area, consider how the branding and identity elements will fit with the mall as it transitions from a regional to a more local, neighborhood center. Similar and supporting comments provided include:
- Scale of the facade elements and signage, existing and future access points and the need for parking structures are elements to consider.
- Large-scale green and wood clad features centered on the NE Multnomah has more of a suburban appearance than an integrated concept.
- It may be a regional mall but that doesn’t mean it’s a suburban mall. It needs an urban presence.

 While the Commission appreciates the efforts to update and spruce up the mall, a master plan, of sorts, is needed to fully understand how the proposed improvements fit in with the larger vision for the mall. Similar and supporting comments provided include:
- A diagram showing where the energy centers are, future development on site (cinema parking lot and structured parking) and around the site (Lloyd Blocks to the southwest) would help inform where the focus should be.
- Providing analysis of how people move around the site and access the building would be helpful in understanding the focus on these entry points.
- The proposed entry elements appear cosmetic (putting lipstick on existing locations where you have ingress and egress to the building), but the locations do not relate to the surrounding area, parking, or to the systems around the site.
- Entry points specifically for bikes should be explored, as well as covered areas. Given the increase in bike traffic in the area, they should also be included in the diagram of how bicyclists access the site and building.
- The master plan could study returning NE 15th to a street. The energy that comes down NE 15th could be harnessed and brought towards the mall.

 The challenge is not necessarily finishes and branding, but how do you communicate the visual queues to people around the project site in a more global way.

 If the south side of the mall is a primary focus, the first phase should be for the entire south façade. The other facades could be tied in with paint and light fixtures.

 The south façade is the most transformative piece and has the ability to strengthen the connection to the park, transit, and the pedestrian realm.

 The new façade elements seem to be focused at the upper levels. Start at the pedestrian level and work your way up the building. Particularly on the south façade where you are trying to focus on the pedestrian experience.

 The identity could be an invitation that is well lit and gracious, it may not be a material or a logo. You may be inviting people to a place instead of coming to a trend.

 Given our climate, this is one place where you have to have cover for pedestrians and those utilizing the mall.

 Walkways on the north side of Marshall’s seem narrow and unsafe. Explore improvements to these walkways between the surface parking lot and the building.

Design and Materials

 The design of the new mall entry and forecourt along the south façade was noted as a design preferred for the entire remodel. It is inviting, well, lit, safe, transparent, it has one foot in the old modernist tradition of the buildings around it, and it is timeless.

 There was some concern that wood and green walls, which each have their own issues, are a departure from the rich heritage of the 50-60‘s modernism of the mall.

 The wood and green wall concept is ‘very 2011’, and therefore likely outdated within years like other similar branding improvements.

 Green and wood are a stereotype of Oregon and a bit overplayed. This site has the opportunity to brand itself in a unique way.

 Concerns with the use of wood on the exterior given the urban nature of this area. Could be used judiciously and not within the touch-zone.

 Green walls are very prone to vandalism and a require a ton of maintenance. If used, should be done so judiciously and not within reach of people.

 Sign size could be addressed by reducing the logo.

[MarkDaMan]

^Ouch, and good for Portland. Do you have a link?

[maccoinnich]

Oh, yeah. Here you go. [PDF, small.]

[crow]

Originally Posted by MarkDaMan

^Ouch, and good for Portland. Do you have a link?

Is it really. First of all Malls no matter what style are not timeless. Retail has to constantly refresh so rhetoric from the commission about wood and green walls as being so 2011 is just that. Rhetoric. It could turn out of town developers off. Why do business here when it is subject to so much subjectivity. I think the commission should stick to the Design Guidelines and try to promote a better pedestrian environment. If they could be concise in their judgement then hopefully some better direction and design will result. The commentary on the mall from the commission is not well focused or in my opinion and not constructive to keep Portland improving its urban environment. Good for the mall owners to want to make some improvements as modest as they are if they are successful will hopefully lead to deeper changes.

[MarkDaMan]

Originally Posted by crow

Is it really. First of all Malls no matter what style are not timeless. Retail has to constantly refresh so rhetoric from the commission about wood and green walls as being so 2011 is just that. Rhetoric. It could turn out of town developers off. Why do business here when it is subject to so much subjectivity. I think the commission should stick to the Design Guidelines and try to promote a better pedestrian environment. If they could be concise in their judgement then hopefully some better direction and design will result. The commentary on the mall from the commission is not well focused or in my opinion and not constructive to keep Portland improving its urban environment. Good for the mall owners to want to make some improvements as modest as they are if they are successful will hopefully lead to deeper changes.

I agree that the commentary about green walls and the wood caught me as a bit...juvenile. However, pushing the conversation on a master plan for the garages and empty lots, bring attention to the heavily bicycle use in the area, as well as asking them to contemplate bringing back 15th avenue, among several other points, are all needed conversations.

The only time the design commission gets to question a major land owner is when they propose changes. Good for them for pushing for more answers during this brief window of opportunity.

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

Brutal:

Hehehe, its like architecture undergrad school again! Man... after actually reading all of their comments and perusing the "design" pdf supplied by Waterleaf & HKS, I have to agree with them. The "design" (using the term loosely) is just a grab-bag of skin-deep tricks that probably won't do much for the Mall beyond giving it a slightly different "image" for a few months. Guess thats what the client is after. Unfortunately, the design is incoherent (wood paneling and green walls will not age well without a lot of maintenance), and the design doesn't do much to address many of the fatal flaws of the mall - which actually has a pretty strong midcentury modernist pedigree.

I think the design commission here has appropriately given the team something to think about: this is an urban site, in a city. Grow up. This isn't the suburbs, kids.

Wonder who takes the heat more in those cases - the client or the architect?

[ablerock]

Originally Posted by crow

Is it really. First of all Malls no matter what style are not timeless. Retail has to constantly refresh so rhetoric from the commission about wood and green walls as being so 2011 is just that. Rhetoric. It could turn out of town developers off. Why do business here when it is subject to so much subjectivity. I think the commission should stick to the Design Guidelines and try to promote a better pedestrian environment. If they could be concise in their judgement then hopefully some better direction and design will result. The commentary on the mall from the commission is not well focused or in my opinion and not constructive to keep Portland improving its urban environment. Good for the mall owners to want to make some improvements as modest as they are if they are successful will hopefully lead to deeper changes.

Did we read the same memo?

The Design Advice Request that produced this memo is an optional exercise and Cypress obviously wanted the free, early, expert (and well thought-out, imho) feedback of the Design Commission.

An applicant may request design advice from the Design Commission or Historic Landmarks Commission prior to submitting a Type III Design Review or Historic Design Review. Design Advice Requests are optional.

http://www.portlandoregon.gov/bds/article/116209

[maccoinnich]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

Hehehe, its like architecture undergrad school again!:

That was my reaction too after reading through it. Reminds me of the time I had to design a breast cancer caring center, and was told in my city that my design was "too masculine".

[PacificNW]

Originally Posted by ablerock

Did we read the same memo?

The Design Advice Request that produced this memo is an optional exercise and AAT obviously wanted the free, early, expert (and well thought-out, imho) feedback of the Design Commission.

AAT is investing heavily in the area with Hassalo on Eighth and other upcoming projects, basically building an entire neighborhood and it appears they want to do an excellent job. Submitting themselves to the early opinion of the Design Commission is very encouraging, imho.

I am confused... American Trust Assets is developing Hassalo on Eighth. Who is AAT?
American Trust Assets does not own the Lloyd Center Mall...do they? If I am correct, in my assumption, they are not the firm that brought these design proposals, for the Lloyd Mall, before the commission...right? I guess they would have an interest in the proposals since they are investing so heavily in the district...but are not investing in the mall financially. Right? Isn't the mall owned by a Texas outfit?