Rapid Transit

[DC83]

I LOVE Bratina's idea of using the Rail Trail for a Downtown-East Mountain link. It could even extend to the McMaster Innovation Park as a terminus.

Fantastic idea, hope it gets suggested (w/ Bratina on council, I know it will be).

[raisethehammer]

I'm not sure I like that idea.
For one, it's great having a safe cycling route right through the entire city like that.
Secondly, LRT is an economic development generator. Running it through the forest eliminates the opportunity for redevelopment and infill as opposed to running it through the city.

[astroblaster]

i agree with raisethehammer on that one. not a big fan of using the rail trail.

[adam]

If transit's goal is to attract riders to get out of their cars, then it should take up a lane of the road. This way its highly visible, helps promote business along its path, and doesn't create another artery.

[omro]

The East/West hopefully will go along Main street to allow that road to be refocussed and feel less like a motorway through the city. It's not very pedestrian friendly at the moment with cars zooming through, exhaust fumes and the noise.

If you have the LRT running both ways on the North and South sides of the street you get to increase the pedestrian friendly areas on both sides of the street, buffering people from cars on both sides.

If you just concentrate the LRT on one side of the street, then you only allow one side to benefit from that flow.

[DC83]

^^ it would allow East-Mountain commuters to leave their cars in the Park'n'Rides in the East-Mountain Industrial areas (ie: Rymal & Dartnall), to get to their jobs either downtown or at MIP on a rapid Right-Of-Way with a connection to C-Line (Mohawk Rd LRT) at Mohawk Sports Park.

Economic spinoff would definately spur at the MSP (hotels maybe?), as well as at MIP, not to mention TH&B Stn. With a link to a (proposed) East-End Incline @ Wentworth South.

LRT isn't only about economic development, it's also about transportation... and rapid transit is where we need to be. I'd MUCH rather take the Downtown Express from MSP than the 21 Kenilworth. Wouldn't you?

[omro]

Ultimately, what's wrong with both?

The first LRT lines have to be visible, successful and provide much needed economic development. They need to prove the point "LRT was and is the right decision for Hamilton"

If this is done, what's to say that they won't commission a second phase adding extra routes? That seems to be the pattern elsewhere.

It's just a case of getting the first routes right and getting the maximum benefit from them. If these routes are wrong, the "I told you so" brigade will come out against LRT and the City won't invest in any more lines.

[DC83]

^^ Exactly, Omro. Thanks.

This is (obviously) just a dream shared by Bratina and myself right now, but once A-Line & B-Line prove to be huge successes, C-Line is inevitable and Downtown Xpress could prove very popular... especially with the huge influx of new residents in Upper Stoney Creek, Binbrook combined with current fuel price trends.

[SteelTown]

LRT doesn't have to be all for rapid transit. BRT could do just fine for the C-Line. We basically need more of the current B-Line service to Hamilton, especially Hamilton Mountain.

[raisethehammer]

I agree completely with rapid service from the east mountain. Just not on the rail trail.

[FairHamilton]

The rail trail is only single wide, so modifications would need to be made to make it wide enough to be 2-way.

I can't see people be too excited about losing their recreational trail. I ride it a couple of times per week, so would be against having it re-purposed.

[coalminecanary]

If LRT is successful enough, there could be justification for widening that corridor to allow LRT and recreation to coexist... They built rail corridors all over the escarpment in the past, when there was political will and financial incentive. If those to keys come back it could happen again.

I agree the first line needs to be very visible and well executed... and the rest will follow as no brainers!

[markbarbera]

I don't think Bratina is proposing this be used as an LRT line, but as a commuter line, so double track certainly wouldn't be needed.

I really regret the rail trail being established a decade ago. The infrastructure was there to provide a rail link for the downtown to the east mountain, the airport, and points south. It was a real opportunity lost. And a bit redudant, seeing as the Bruce trail basically runs parallel to it. Sure, it's nice to have a trail for recreation, but it should have been utilized to provide greater benefit to the city and region as a whole.

[BrianE]

Could we please not lobby for a transit link through a UNESCO world biosphere reserve (The Escarpment). Besides, there's no way a proposal like this would pass an EA, the NEC and Hamilton Conservation Authority would be all over it.

[DC83]

I have a question re: paying to get onto an LRT.

How does the HSR prevent people from sneaking on for free? The platforms for most inner-city LRTs I have seen seem to be very open and accessible. I have seen some that are blocked on all 3 sides minus a slot for paying customers to enter, but that's not going to prevent them from boarding the platform on the street-side?

SO my question really is: Will Hamilton have
a) free LRT
b) an honour system like Calgary's downtown stns
c) bus-like entry for LRT trains

[SteelTown]

Honour system is suppose to be in place for the B and A-Line. That's something will likely be announced in the fall along with amenities projects (special shelters).

[matt602]

If an honour system comes into place, random ticket checks like on VIVA and GO will most likely come with it (with mandatory transfers as proof of payment unless seperate tickets are assigned for LRT).

[SteelTown]

With the rapid transit funding from the recent provincial budget so much money was set aside for amenities, think we're talking like nearly $10 million in total for both lines. $6 million for A-Line amenities and $5.6 million for B-Line amenities.

One of the short term goal was to develop an off-board payment system for the A and B-Line. Those systems will be included in the new shelters. All of this is supposed to come out in the fall so that all the amenities will be completed before the A-Line is up and running, fall of 2009.

[omro]

Originally Posted by DC83

SO my question really is: Will Hamilton have
a) free LRT
b) an honour system like Calgary's downtown stns
c) bus-like entry for LRT trains

a) Unlikely - maybe a few free days at the beginning under the banner of "Try our wonderful LRT for free and if you love it as much as we do, you'll use it again"

b) If you have the presto card system fully in place by this point, it will probably be a touch in as you enter affair, with roaming ticket inspectors with mobile card readers. That how "bendy" buses and multicar Trams operate here in London. See d) and e).

c) I'm guessing this means, everyone enters through one door and pays a driver? I've never seen that with modern LRTs, though I have with the older ones. With an LRT of more than one car length it's totally impractical.

d) Which hasn't been suggested here, but I'll add. Either build the LRT to be driverless and fully automatic allowing you to have a roaming conductor walking throughout the LRT cars at all times. Or have a driver and a conductor, much like old buses had. This has been proven to reduce vandalism and antisocial behaviour, though has resulted in the odd incident of abuse towards conductors.

e) Which hasn't been suggested here, but I'll add. They build fully enclosed stations with turnstyles to make sure only those who have paid get through the turnstyle. I doubt this will happen, purely out of cost, but some places have built these.

[Jon Dalton]

Fare collection is a serious issue. Every LRT I've ever rode is so easy to avoid paying - simply walk on, and don't swipe the ticket. However with multiple points of entry checking fares is impossible. Building enclosures at every stop is ugly and impractical. Then add the fact that the rest of the system is still using paper transfers which would never work with a validation system. At the very least, we would have to upgrade to magnetic tickets.

The strangest thing I've ever seen is on the Grenoble system, at night the transit cops are out in full force, they even gave me the gears for taking pictures in the vehicles. I haven't seen anything like it even on big city subways and I'd hate to think of what that costs the system. Imagine if all the cost savings of LRT are eaten up just policing the thing? I hope it doesn't come to that in Hamilton.