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  #341  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2008, 10:19 AM
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Exclamation Breaking News!!!

Breaking News!!! Front Page of today's Inq---New tower for Philly!!!

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news...yscrapers.html

Quote:
1,500-foot tower plan in Philadelphia heralds new era of super-tall skyscrapers
By Inga Saffron

Inquirer Architecture Critic

The most notable fact about a new proposal to build a record-breaking 1,500-foot skyscraper at 18th and Arch Streets isn't the building's stunning height. It's that its height isn't an issue for Philadelphians.
Two decades after this city underwent a wrenching public soul-searching over the prospect that the 945-foot-tall Liberty Place would overshadow the City Hall tower, the first question many are asking about the proposed American Commerce Center is: "What are the odds of its getting built?"

Slim but better than zero, city real estate handicappers say. Yet even if this statuesque tower never takes its place alongside the skyline's current pinnacle, the 975-foot Comcast Tower, it's a good bet Center City will see skyscrapers of the same immense scale piercing the clouds in the not-distant future.

One Liberty Place held the title of Philadelphia's tallest building for 20 years, until it was overtaken last year. Its successor is unlikely to wear the mantle for long, predicted John Gattuso, the Liberty Property Trust executive who built Comcast's glass obelisk.

"There's a high probability we'll see super-tall towers in the next round of building," he said. "When will we get to the height of the one that's proposed? Who knows? But it's wonderful that Philadelphians are thinking in those terms."

In general, it seems that tall buildings are getting taller. During the recent condo boom, 400-foot towers became commonplace in many cities, including Philadelphia. Now, super-tall towers, as their champions call them, are going through the stratosphere.

New York is building the 1,776-foot Freedom Tower at Ground Zero to replace the lost World Trade Center (1,368 feet). It soon will be bested by Santiago Calatrava's swirling 2,000-foot Chicago Spire. Both buildings, however, will have to look up to Burj Dubai, which will soar a half-mile above the earth at 2,300 feet after its completion in the United Arab Emirates next year.

Heavyweights of the super-tall club are mainly rising in go-go financial centers such as Dubai, Shanghai and Hong Kong, eager to present a visible statement of their ambitions. But the architect A. Eugene Kohn, who has designed two of the world's highest buildings and is overseeing the American Commerce Center plans, contends that any city that expects to remain competitive in the energy-conscious 21st century will have to embrace super-tall buildings.

"When these towers are well planned and served by transit, they're incredibly energy-efficient," said Carol Willis, director of New York's Skyscraper Museum. They make cities more livable by providing the critical mass to justify amenities, she believes.

Walnut Street Capital, the investment group behind the American Commerce Center, clearly thought the lot at 18th Street met the criteria for a super-tall building when it paid $30 million for the half-block property last year. Though the site does not connect to the Suburban Station Concourse, architects are looking at ways to extend that underground passage, which now terminates under the Comcast building. The site is accessible to SEPTA, Amtrak and the airport.

Like most super-tall towers, American Commerce would offer more than one use. The complex would include a hollowed trapezoid on the 18th Street side that would rise 477 feet and include a 33-story hotel, three levels of shops, movie theaters, and a conference center, as well as landscaped plazas served by cafes and restaurants. Another retail level is designated for a big-box store such as Crate & Barrel, and there is room in the underground level for a supermarket.

Yet despite the center's boast of soaring 1,500 feet, its office tower would top out at just 1,200 feet. A 300-foot spire would poke out from its asymmetrically sliced crown - like a toothpick in a martini glass. That crown, incidentally, is a virtual clone of the original design that Daniel Libeskind submitted for Freedom Tower in 2003.

The complex probably would be faced in glass, but the architects are a long way from completing the details. While northwest corners would be angled, the Center City side appears dully squared off.

One odd thing about the 1,200-foot tower, which would be on the 19th Street side of the site, is that it would contain just 62 office floors above the eight-story base of amenities. That would give American Commerce about 1.3 million square feet of office space, roughly the same as the Comcast building, which has 57 floors and a similar footprint. American Commerce's total would be 2.2 million square feet.

Most of today's super-tall towers, Willis noted, are residential buildings. They need fewer elevators than offices do, and they don't have to waste precious floor space on bulky service cores.

For many Philadelphians, it's hard to imagine a big project of either type getting off the ground with a recession looming. Yet this market doesn't follow a typical pattern.

Other than the Comcast building and the petite Cira Centre, there has been virtually no office construction here since the 1991 real estate crash. The city's office buildings are as technologically out of date as a five-year-old laptop and have trouble satisfying companies that want fast Internet and high energy efficiency.

So, although the real estate market has stalled, American Commerce's investors believe there is a pent-up demand here for new high-tech offices. The strategy, said attorney Peter Kelsen, is to take advantage of low office rents to lure out-of-town companies that are eager to cut costs. Philadelphia's rents are half of New York's.

If American Commerce can find a starter tenant to take 30 percent of its floor space, the project could get a green light. Because it is backed by a pension fund, Walnut Street Capital won't need to scramble for bank financing.

But it will be competing with Liberty Property Trust and Brandywine Realty, which also plan new office buildings. Unlike Walnut Capital, those companies have proved they can build a tower.
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  #342  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2008, 11:26 AM
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The images that accompany the article in the Philadelphia Inquirer.


ERIC MENCHER / Inquirer Staff Photographer
Sunlight illuminates the lot where the skyscraper would rise.


JOHN COSTELLO / Inquirer Staff Photographer
A skyscraper on this lot at 18th and Arch would rise 525 feet above the 975-foot Comcast Center (right).


This is the architect's vision for the American Commerce Center, in a view from Arch.
     
     
  #343  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2008, 1:07 PM
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^^^ YEAH !!! Here we go !!!

But I don't agree with this quote,"Slim but better than zero, city real estate handicappers say." To the question if it will be built or not.
This project is already financed, correct?? All they need is one major tenant to proceed ??

Last edited by kraggman; Mar 22, 2008 at 2:19 PM.
     
     
  #344  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2008, 2:45 PM
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Would be awesome if this is built. It might sound crazy but I really like skyscrapers.
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  #345  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2008, 3:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraggman View Post
^^^ YEAH !!! Here we go !!!

But I don't agree with this quote,"Slim but better than zero, city real estate handicappers say." To the question if it will be built or not.
This project is already financed, correct?? All they need is one major tenant to proceed ??
yeah, i didnt agree with that either, although , like Comcast Center, there are signifigant hurdles to surmount prior to start of construction. The two that stick out in my mind are the obvious need of an anchor tenant and the rezoning needed. Height is not a problem but i believe there is some other issue that has to be dealt with.

At this point, i would say there is a 25% chance of it being built, about the same as Comcast Center upon initial proposal. In fact, Comcast Center wanted KOZ and didnt get it and only a last minute bit of tap-dancing by Gov. Ed Randell allowed LBT to put shovels into the ground.

Given the favorable rent situation, Phila's overall location, rising reputation, the type of financing, and the equity they have in the property, the developers should be able to lure an anchor tenant from NYC or some other high rent district.

In this case, Inga's article is not too bad. she doesnt seem to be slamming the design like she does with alot of other proposals, including Comcast Center, which turned out to be incredible.
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  #346  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2008, 3:43 PM
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I like this paragraph from Inga's article...

"If American Commerce can find a starter tenant to take 30 percent of its floor space, the project could get a green light. Because it is backed by a pension fund, Walnut Street Capital won't need to scramble for bank financing."


This is VERY DOABLE and VERY REALISTIC and probably WILL happen. So they do not need to fill all of the space in the building to start construction, only 30%. This will happen. Super Tall here we come.
     
     
  #347  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2008, 4:05 PM
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"Slim but better than zero, city real estate handicappers say." That's the kind of thing people say when they're in irrational denial and likely ignorant of the details. If this project lacked funding, needed height rezoning, and was being proposed with say a 15% office vacancy rate in the city, THEN you would say something like that.

Last edited by Don098; Mar 22, 2008 at 4:32 PM.
     
     
  #348  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2008, 4:41 PM
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Originally Posted by TheOldMan View Post
yeah, i didnt agree with that either, although , like Comcast Center, there are signifigant hurdles to surmount prior to start of construction. The two that stick out in my mind are the obvious need of an anchor tenant and the rezoning needed. Height is not a problem but i believe there is some other issue that has to be dealt with.
the issue is FAR, or floor area ratio. the allowable height of the building is unlimited, but the overall square footage can only be a certain multiple of the site area. I don't know what the allowable FAR is for that site, so I won't speculate on what it might be. but for some sites, you can only have 7.5 times the total site area, for example. if the site is 100,000sf, then the building can be 750,000sf of floor area. that is just an example, again I don't know what it is for the acc site, but it is going to need a variance to get 2.2 million sf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOldMan View Post
At this point, i would say there is a 25% chance of it being built, about the same as Comcast Center upon initial proposal. In fact, Comcast Center wanted KOZ and didnt get it and only a last minute bit of tap-dancing by Gov. Ed Randell allowed LBT to put shovels into the ground.
25% based on what? that means that there are 4 possible scenarios, only one of which allows for it to be built. I think the chances are much better than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOldMan View Post
Given the favorable rent situation, Phila's overall location, rising reputation, the type of financing, and the equity they have in the property, the developers should be able to lure an anchor tenant from NYC or some other high rent district.
I hope you're right. as I said before, this would be much more likely to happen if city council would pretty please do something about the business privelige tax.
     
     
  #349  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2008, 4:53 PM
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In all fairness there are better places to put a building of this size and bulk. Once they shoe horn it onto that lot it's going to sit there like a 5,000 pound elephant.

It's the sort of scenereo that zoning was invented to prevent.
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  #350  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2008, 4:54 PM
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Originally Posted by bryson662001 View Post
In all fairness there are better places to put a building of this size and bulk.
such as...?
     
     
  #351  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2008, 5:01 PM
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POSTED BY SKYSCRAPER: 25% based on what? that means that there are 4 possible scenarios, only one of which allows for it to be built. I think the chances are much better than that.

Skyscraper,

Thank you for clarifying the zoning issue.

Yes, the Business Privelege Tax needs to be eliminated. The tax code in Philadelphia in general needs to be overhauled. That is another discussion in which we can discuss ad nausem.

My above estimate was simply based on watching umerous past large scale projects both in Philly and other cities from initial proposal to conclusion. Three scenarios that could halt the project or alter it signifigantly are as follows:

1.Progressively worsening economy/inflation and precipitous rise in const. costs thus making the project financially unattractive
2. Failure to lure/sign anchor tenant or tenants
3. Failure to obtain necessary rezoning for site as req. by the development team.

Im sure there are more hurdles but the above three stick out the most for me.

the first scenario is impossible to predict for sure but given the rising costs of fuel and other commodities, it is not out of the question. However declining commercial vacency rates in the city as well as a pent-up demand for Class A office space can mitigate this to some extent.

the 2nd possibility (failure to sign an anchor tenant), is less likely; it appears the developers are commited and have put together an excellent initial proposal that would seem to be attractive to any large company looking to make a move. Since only 30% of the usable office space needs to be rented, the odds favor success in this regard. Though, the tax code could pose a challenge for the developers. Like you stated, it needs to be changed.

I cannot speak to the third scenario. I dont have any practical knowledge of the rezoning process and to what extent one has to go in order to obtain a desired re-zoning approved for a given project in Philadelphia. Perhaps someone with a greater knowledge base can give informed speculation.

Overall , do i think the project will happen: Yes, i belive it will, at least in some form not too much different that what we see here. As I said before, Walnut Street Capital seems to have done their homework, appears committed to working with the community to make the building blend harmoniously with the city and appears fiscially capable of completing the project.

If I had appeared pessimistic, I can assure you that was not my intention. I BADLY want to see this happen. My post simply reflected my opinion as to the likelyhood of success based on my own previous observations of other signifigant projects.

As with any large development, only time will tell if the project will succeed and tower will come to grace our skyline and city with its presence.
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Last edited by TheOldMan; Mar 22, 2008 at 5:21 PM.
     
     
  #352  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2008, 5:50 PM
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Originally Posted by TheOldMan View Post
Overall , do i think the project will happen: Yes, i belive it will, at least in some form not too much different that what we see here. As I said before, Walnut Street Capital seems to have done their homework, appears committed to working with the community to make the building blend harmoniously with the city and appears fiscially capable of completing the project.
if you only give it a 25% chance of happening, then the answer is no you don't believe it will happen. that would require something over 50%.
it's just when people throw out these arbitrary numbers that I call them into question.
I think most of us on this board want it to happen, in some form if not the proposed one.
     
     
  #353  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2008, 6:24 PM
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Originally Posted by skyscraper View Post
if you only give it a 25% chance of happening, then the answer is no you don't believe it will happen. that would require something over 50%.
it's just when people throw out these arbitrary numbers that I call them into question.
I think most of us on this board want it to happen, in some form if not the proposed one.
The number I threw out is not entirely arbitrary. Just think about all of the signifigant project proposals in Philadelphia since 1991, the end of the last commerical building boom. Approximatly 25-30 percent went on to be built. City Center Tower, World Trade Square, Bridgemans View Tower, CoreStates Center (twin towers), World Trade Center (twin towers), Comcast Center, Blue Cross Tower #2, Cira Center,Cira II, RATR, 1441 Chestnut Street, Mandeville Place, 17th and Vine, St. James Place. Of those 14 proposed projects, four went on to construction. The jury is still out on 4 (BVT, Mandeville, 1441 Chestnut, Cira II). But even if 1 of the 4 uncertains gets built, you are still looking at 5/14,which is roughly 30-35%. My justification for picking 1/4-BVT, 1441 and Mandeville are for the most part residental and/or have a sizable residental component. Add back in American Commerce Center and the percentage improves but is still less than 50%.

Each was/is a signifigant proposal in terms of cost and scale. Of all listed, only appx 25-30% were built and/or under construction. That holds true for the most part in every major city. Do i think at this point it will happen ? Well, i guess I give it a 25% chance. When you are talking about this stage of a given large-scale project, I believe that is optimistic. If the project needed say, 60% of the building to be leased, height variances and traditional bank financing, I would put the project at 5-10% chance, given the variables involved. Can that number change as events develop? Sure, and it will. The longer time passes, the clearer the picture will be come. Will it be a successful picture or will it remain another inspiring yet unrealized vision ? Either the odds will improve or they will be reduded to 0%. Only time will tell. These are my thoughts based on my own observations and knowledge of Philadelphia's past proposed skyscraper projects.

I believe all of us hope that picture we see in the newspapers and on the American Commerce Center's website leaps off the page and becomes apart of Philadelphia's skyline.
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Last edited by TheOldMan; Mar 22, 2008 at 6:40 PM.
     
     
  #354  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2008, 7:15 PM
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Would be awesome if this is built. It might sound crazy but I really like skyscrapers.

Why would that statement sound crazy? Most people love skyscrapers more than they think plus cities would be very boring without them. I think the taller they get, the more interesting they become to humans. And when I say taller; I mean taller but with class like "Comcast Center" in Philly or "SWFC" in Shanghi. American Commerce seem to be a classy contender also from what the designs indicate so far but what really get me going when I see this proposal or look up at a skyscraper on the street is the design and the actual building height without the spire. A spire is OK though and the American Commerce spire design seem pretty nice. Also, we need to spread out some of these tall buildings and stop bunching them together. If we get this skyscraper plus stretch our skyline a bit with all the other future projects on hand for philly, People will seriously consider Philadelphia as one of the top 3 or 4 skylines in the world. For real!
     
     
  #355  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2008, 7:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don098 View Post
"Slim but better than zero, city real estate handicappers say." That's the kind of thing people say when they're in irrational denial and likely ignorant of the details.
No, that's the kind of thing people say about a proposed project that they would be in competition against.
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  #356  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2008, 8:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryson662001 View Post
In all fairness there are better places to put a building of this size and bulk. Once they shoe horn it onto that lot it's going to sit there like a 5,000 pound elephant.

It's the sort of scenereo that zoning was invented to prevent.
They need to tear down the Soviet style housing along JFK. That would free up the space and make that stretch of Center City livelier instead of the dead zone it currently is.......
     
     
  #357  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2008, 8:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastdupree View Post
Why would that statement sound crazy? Most people love skyscrapers more than they think plus cities would be very boring without them. I think the taller they get, the more interesting they become to humans. And when I say taller; I mean taller but with class like "Comcast Center" in Philly or "SWFC" in Shanghi. American Commerce seem to be a classy contender also from what the designs indicate so far but what really get me going when I see this proposal or look up at a skyscraper on the street is the design and the actual building height without the spire. A spire is OK though and the American Commerce spire design seem pretty nice. Also, we need to spread out some of these tall buildings and stop bunching them together. If we get this skyscraper plus stretch our skyline a bit with all the other future projects on hand for philly, People will seriously consider Philadelphia as one of the top 3 or 4 skylines in the world. For real!
Was being sarcastic. Obviously people on this site
like skyscrapers.
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  #358  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2008, 8:53 PM
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No, that's the kind of thing people say about a proposed project that they would be in competition against.
So they're still threatened by it then. It doesn't matter what the motivation is that closes their mind. The point is, it's closed. And that's part of what stifles growth. Closed minds.

Last edited by Don098; Mar 22, 2008 at 10:08 PM.
     
     
  #359  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2008, 10:23 PM
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Someone was bound and determined to see the original Freedom Tower design go up so they decided to put it in Philly
     
     
  #360  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2008, 1:14 AM
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A person named Kamuix created a diagram of ACC in the diagram section of SSP.
     
     
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