Hamilton International Airport

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by neilson

And do you have any idea how much that trip will cost?

To run the entire length of the 407, from Brock to the QEW, costs $25 at peak travel periods (morning/afternoon rush hours), and $23 during non-peak periods.

Of course, at non-peak periods, just take the 401/403 and the ride's free.

[raisethehammer]

I can't believe there are still people in this city who want MORE highways???
they won'ty be happy until we're a laughingstock, smog-riddled mess like L.A.
The new Hwy 6 was the connector from Linc/Red Hill/403 to the airport....what does this idiot want, a highway from Limeridge Mall to the airport...just in case a temp worker at the Bay needs to take a quick flight to Halifax on their lunch break?? Hamilton is so full of peabrains it's staggering.

Also, I'm no water expert, but does it make sense to run water from Centennial to the airport??? sounds to me like a sneaky way to get underground water services in place across the entire undeveloped, rural area south of the city.


CATCH News – February 23, 2008
Servicing aerotropolis will be costly
Providing sewer and water services to the aerotropolis lands will be expensive and challenging according to city consultants. Road upgrades will also be required for the proposed business park as well as a stormwater management system complicated by the ecological sensitivity of the airport area.
Bob Fleeton, a consultant with KMK told members of the airport Community Liaison Committee (CLC) last week that supplying water to the aerotropolis will require “another feeder main to come up through the escarpment” from the Woodward Avenue water treatment facility.
“We’ve looked at different locations and determined that the ideal location would be on the Centennial road right-of-way,” explained Fleeton. “There is a need to do some upgrading on Centennial as a road itself so then that gives some opportunity to tie in other work as well.”
A new trunk sewer line would also follow Centennial Parkway up the escarpment and then run east-west through the rural area south of the North Glanbrook business park to the airport – a distance of about 25 kilometres. That plan surprised Morgan Pirie, a citizen member of the CLC who is also a professional planner.
“That’s a huge distance going all the way from Centennial to the airport lands,” noted Pirie. “Using Centennial to service the airport is going through a lot of rural land that’s not developable.”
Fleeton said there weren’t any other good options and it doesn’t make any sense to add flows to the combined sanitary and storm sewer system that covers most of the older part of Hamilton.
“We did look at actually in the master servicing plan at another municipal wastewater treatment facility or even tying it into Haldimand or Niagara,” he explained. “But the Centennial one jumped out because it was going to be used for the trunk watermain as well.”
Fleeton acknowledged that the topography of the airport site presents significant servicing problems because “it’s very much at a height of land”, requiring pumping stations for water, but draining the wrong way for sewage flows so the city can’t make use of gravity to get the wastewater to the Woodward treatment facility.
“We like to use gravity, but unfortunately some of the lands at the airport are sloping the wrong way,” he noted.
The point was emphasized in the presentation of Brian Hindley of Aquafor Beech consultants who explained that the 3000 acre aerotropolis study area contains the headwaters of four streams.
“There actually are three conservation authorities with jurisdiction inside this area as well as four watercourses,” noted Hindley. In the northern portion we have Hamilton Conservation Authority with Sulphur Springs Creek, over here we have the Grand River Conservation Authority with Big Creek which is a tributary of the Grand River, and then we have the Niagara Region Conservation Authority with Twenty Mile Creek and the Welland River.”
Hindley said the situation complicated stormwater management because the creeks contains significant wetlands and sensitive fish habitat protected by conservation authority regulations. He said nearly all the lands have poor water infiltration capacity as well which complicate the management of runoff.
Councillor Dave Mitchell said his farm straddles Twenty Mile Creek and he knows it doesn’t have any fish in it.
“It dries up to bone dry every single summer,” he declared. “I can guarantee you that there’s no fish in Twenty Mile Creek at the back of my farm.”
He asked to be part of the examination of fish habitat “in light of all the nature I know”.
A third consultant, Edward Soldo of Dillon, provided the CLC with an overview of transportation issues related to the airport business park. He said there was a good level of service at the moment, but future improvements would be required.
“There is a need for increased capacity on major arterials and highways to the employment district,” Soldo said, suggesting the development of “some connectivity to the Linc and the Red Hill Valley Parkway and other industrial employment areas such as the North Glanbrook industrial business park.”
Michael Desnoyers of Hamiltonians for Progressive Development asked each consultant in turn to provide the specific costs to service the aerotropolis so the price of the business park can be calculated. He was promised these figures would be forthcoming.
The servicing costs have been controversial since the aerotropolis idea was first broached. Estimates in excess of $100 million have been suggested by some councillors, but to date the city has not provided numbers.

[realcity]

RTH i think you're on the them. This does look like a sneaky way to service the land south of 53. Why on earth would the city spend the money on sewer mains in rural land without ever planning on using the them.

Caledonia uses Hamilton water, there is a pumping station midway on highway 6. That's strange that the water has to run up hill both ways?

[HAMRetrofit]

Seems like a logical plan if this project is to go through.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by realcity

RTH i think you're on the them. This does look like a sneaky way to service the land south of 53. Why on earth would the city spend the money on sewer mains in rural land without ever planning on using the them.

Caledonia uses Hamilton water, there is a pumping station midway on highway 6. That's strange that the water has to run up hill both ways?

yup...anyone who's followed development issues knows full well that once underground services are in place developers exert tons of pressure to build.
In Hamilton they don't need to exert tons of pressure...just stroll into city hall. they're all in on this together.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Are the rural lands in question Greenbelt or not?

[HAMRetrofit]

Its a conspiracy. The city wants to spend money in such a way that it does not need to spend it again on the same thing. My gosh if shovel ready employment land is created in Hamilton it could compromise all the social services that are thieving downtown with people getting jobs. The new businesses may even need to setup office space downtown causing the economy to restart and laggard property owners to sell out.

[hamiltonguy]

I honestly think for once this is what it looks like. Downtown's sewer system is a mess so they want to divert the Airport waste to Centennial. Really if it went downtown you'd all be complaining about all the floods and sewer backups that it'd cause.

[raisethehammer]

I think you guys need to put aside your passionate love for anything airport related for a moment and look at the facts.

1. Yes, the lands in question (the entire area south of roughly Twenty Rd) ARE in the greenbelt zone.
2. There is water/sewer lines on Upper James - you can service aerotropolis from there.
3. It's ALL going downtown anyhow....the main pumping station is Woodward Ave. Centennial goes there along with Upper James and every other line in the city.

It's absolutely insane to even dream of supporting this just because you love the airport. It would be like me supporting absolutely any idea or means of revitalizing Lister just because I love downtown.
This isn't a conspiracy....it's too blatant to be a conspiracy. These guys (and you all should if you follow this type of news) know that once underground services are in place, development follows. It's a somewhat sneaky, and not very bright, means of skirting the greenbelt act.

[flar]

Actually there is quite a bit of land south of Hamilton designated for development in the Place to Grow act. I'm not sure if the land in question is part of it or not, but I suspect it is. Regardless, if the city does not service this land Hamilton will be left behind again. This city desperately needs new jobs to reduce the social services load and expand the tax base. A city like Hamilton cannot maintain its extensive and aging infrastructure as a bedroom community, which it is quickly becoming.

I don't like sprawl any more than anyone else, but the reality of the situation is that Hamilton has no competitive employment land. No company will build on costly brownfield sites in Hamilton when they can put up a plant for next to nothing along Veteran's Memorial Parkway in London, along the 403 in Brantfrod, along the 401 in Woodstock, along Hanlon Pkwy in Guelph, etc. Every other city in this region has land ready to go, Hamilton has nothing.

[raisethehammer]

you're missing my point....we CAN service this land by using the water services on Upper James.
The greenbelt maps protect land south of Twenty Road. Assuming a farily direct line from Hwy 20 and 53 to the airport, most of the underground sewers will be south of Twenty Road. Plus, why draw sewers all the way from 53&20 when we can do it FOR LESS MONEY from Upper James a few minutes away from the airport???
Personally, I believe that the clowns behind the Mid-Pen highway are having some input/control here....they want that highway through no-mans land and it's proposed route is also south of Twenty Road. Hmmm, what a strange coincidence.

[HAMRetrofit]

Its business as usual or parish for Hamilton at this point. There is no way that the Upper James lines can service this extent of development. Its either route it into Caledonia with a new treatment plant discharging into the Grand River or discharge down Centennial through Woodward. This is industrial waste discharge so it is much larger infrastructure. The lands in question are outside of the urban boundary but inside the Greenbelt.

[SteelTown]

If you look at the Greenbelt land you'll see all the land from Hamilton Airport to Twenty Road is NOT part of the Greenbelt, it's shaded in another colour to suggest it's land that's available to be built up. South of the Airport then becomes part of the Greenbelt, hence why there's more and more housing development happening at Twenty Road, scary development if you ask me, fake security gates and private community with no sidewalks and weird driveways.

[SteelTown]

Here's the Greenbelt in detail, from the North is Twenty Road and to Airport Road.....



As you can see all that land is NOT protected by the Greenbelt, white colour. Everything South of White Church Road is part of the Greenbelt, the light brownish colour is Greenbelt. The entire city's proposed Airport business part from Dickenson to Airport Road from Upper James to Glancaster Rod is all white and not part of the Greenbelt.

[raisethehammer]

sorry guys...I'm obviously not making myself clear. I have a pretty good knowledge of greenbelt lands out there due to helping my company look for some land recently.
Yes, those maps you show are farily accurate...you'll notice the area called 'Part 7' in the top right corner....that is in the greenbelt and increases over by Centennial and Hwy 53.
I'm NOT referring to the land around the airport. I know it was left out of the greenbelt.

I'm talking about the land that is generally South and SouthWest of the intersection of Centennial and Hwy 53. Most of that entire swath was originally (accidentally) left out of Greenbelt and then added in later. the two suburban development zones the city left in place were the airport one and the area south of Centennial/Hwy 53.
Laying down sewers underground ALL THE WAY from Hwy 53/Centennial to the airport means that much of the sewer runs under protected rural land.

Please don't make comments like "it's impossible to tie into the Upper James line" when that's simply not true.
There's ample capacity and again, it all goes to the same place....between Upper James and areas along Rymal Road West there is plenty of sewer capacity.

Hope that explains my point a little better.

[HAMRetrofit]

Just so there is no collusion here is a map of the area being discussed. The purple line represents the urban boundary and the green fill represents the Greenbelt and Niagara Escarpment.



As mentioned Twenty Road is entirely outside of the Greenbelt. Area 7 is actually the head of Twenty Mile Creek.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

sorry guys...I'm obviously not making myself clear. I have a pretty good knowledge of greenbelt lands out there due to helping my company look for some land recently.
Yes, those maps you show are farily accurate...you'll notice the area called 'Part 7' in the top right corner....that is in the greenbelt and increases over by Centennial and Hwy 53.
I'm NOT referring to the land around the airport. I know it was left out of the greenbelt.

I'm talking about the land that is generally South and SouthWest of the intersection of Centennial and Hwy 53. Most of that entire swath was originally (accidentally) left out of Greenbelt and then added in later. the two suburban development zones the city left in place were the airport one and the area south of Centennial/Hwy 53.
Laying down sewers underground ALL THE WAY from Hwy 53/Centennial to the airport means that much of the sewer runs under protected rural land.

Please don't make comments like "it's impossible to tie into the Upper James line" when that's simply not true.
There's ample capacity and again, it all goes to the same place....between Upper James and areas along Rymal Road West there is plenty of sewer capacity.

Hope that explains my point a little better.

How do you know there is capacity on the Upper James trunk? In fact how is it that you know so much about everything but never done anything yourself?

The article you quoted is from CATCH or whatever the fu*k they are basically represent one view, your view. Some people don't agree.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I'm confused as to how running this trunk line under the Greenbelt would somehow "jeopardize" this protected expanse of land. I thought the Greenbelt legislation--which wiped out any chance of development on the land my parents' own was fairly clearly stipulated...that is iron-clad. Like the smoking ban it was an easy and cheap promise for McGuinty to keep.

Regardless--before I go off on a tangent--what's the issue with the line running through this land?

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

I'm confused as to how running this trunk line under the Greenbelt would somehow "jeopardize" this protected expanse of land. I thought the Greenbelt legislation--which wiped out any chance of development on the land my parents' own was fairly clearly stipulated...that is iron-clad. Like the smoking ban it was an easy and cheap promise for McGuinty to keep.

Regardless--before I go off on a tangent--what's the issue with the line running through this land?

as you can see from the above map, lines will run through 2 large swaths of Greenbelt land.
The Greenbelt legislation has always been criticized for it's various loopholes and allowing 'leapfrog' development which will end up resulting in developers and cities trying to pressure the government to remove areas (like Area 7 and the huge area South of Hwy20&53) for more development "since the underground services are already there".

[HAMRetrofit]

The piping can be routed to avoid greenbelt land. At Centennial, the road already exists so no new damage would be done to Greenbelt land. The road would be dug up and new lines would be put in place. The sewer would most likely be run along an existing street like Twenty Rd. I don't know what the issue is in running these lines. They are not going to be run in the middle of agricultural land, it just does not make sense. They will be run along the streets.

I am interested if you have any evidence of this leap frogging caused by existing sewer mains.