The Great Canadian Skyline thread for CMAs 1 million and under

[JuelzJones]

Kitchener has a horrible, horrible, horrible skyline it's pathetic. Our buildings are atrocious especially that Sun Life building. Kitchener is definitely in contention of having the shittiest skyline in North america going by size of the city. Kitchener looks so fucken boring it's not even funny.

Originally Posted by JuelzJones

Kitchener has a horrible, horrible, horrible skyline it's pathetic. Our buildings are atrocious especially that Sun Life building. Kitchener is definitely in contention of having the shittiest skyline in North america going by size of the city. Kitchener looks so fucken boring it's not even funny.

So I take it you're from there? I haven't seen you in the local section.

[koops65]

Originally Posted by JuelzJones

Kitchener has a horrible, horrible, horrible skyline it's pathetic. Our buildings are atrocious especially that Sun Life building. Kitchener is definitely in contention of having the shittiest skyline in North america going by size of the city. Kitchener looks so fucken boring it's not even funny.

While I agree the Kitchener skyline isn't all that great, it's not THAT bad... and I have certainly seen worse.

Originally Posted by koops65

While I agree the Kitchener skyline isn't all that great, it's not THAT bad... and I have certainly seen worse.

Well, it holds its own in this thread if you don't mention the fact that it's the centre of a region of 530,000 people. Rivals...Saskatoon? Saint John? On a per capita basis, I have a hard time thinking of worse. I only post them in this thread because the CMA population numbers are less than the regional population. Otherwise, I'd technically have to post them among the "greats" and obviously they wouldn't fit in very well over there, lol.

I don't really know how to defend it, if that's even possible. But on ground level, it's definitely improved quite a bit this past decade.

[Rico Rommheim]

Not much of a "skyline" that's for sure. There are many clusters that are bigger and nicer in Toronto and the GTA alone.

[Urban_Genius]

The TD building is nice.

And the building storefront are nice. Not really bad K-W I'd say.

[Phil McAvity]

Originally Posted by JuelzJones

Kitchener has a horrible, horrible, horrible skyline it's pathetic. Our buildings are atrocious especially that Sun Life building. Kitchener is definitely in contention of having the shittiest skyline in North america going by size of the city. Kitchener looks so fucken boring it's not even funny.

Kitchener does have a pretty weak skyline but it's more impressive than Portland Maine. Portland's metro population is 620,000 and it doesn't even have a 200 footer.

Originally Posted by Phil McAvity

Kitchener does have a pretty weak skyline but it's more impressive than Portland Maine. Portland's metro population is 620,000 and it doesn't even have a 200 footer.

Hmm, actually you're right.

Portand, Maine.



http://www.mainehomebuzz.com/wp-cont...land-maine.gif

It actually looks more like Galt (Cambridge) or Guelph, but with red brick instead of stone.

Anyhow, there are some nice features in Kitchener, but a skyline and attractive mid-to-high-rises are not among them (save for the TD building). Even the individual nice low-rise buildings we have are often separated from each other by the worst kind of 1960s urban renewal, including failed downtown malls, blank walls, and parking garages.

[ErickMontreal]

I still think Saint John (NB) has a better skyline than Waterloo/Kitchener, considering the size of the city. (125 000)





http://www.flickr.com/photos/sudsmuf...7606292200811/

Moreover, here's a better photo of Portland Maine.

Originally Posted by ErickMontreal

[FONT="Arial"]I still think Saint John (NB) has a better skyline than Waterloo/Kitchener, considering the size of the city. (125 000)

Considering the size, yes. I'm not so sure in absolute terms though. SJ has the advantage that its tallest buildings are concentrated in one spot (a main intersection of sorts), which gives it better form. But there aren't that many buildings over 5 storeys to begin with, and of those that are, none of them are very tall. When I compared Kitchener's skyline to SJ's and Saskatoon's, I meant in absolute terms, not per capita.

[Devon]

have to love Saskatchewan skys.

courtesy of brownridge michelle on flickr.

[softee]

Portland, Maine's central city has a population of only 63,000. Like most American cities, it's "metro" is very expansive and covers a huge area taking in dozens of surrounding towns.

[koops65]

You also need to consider that although the "metro" Kitchener area is 500 000+, the city itself (and it's Kitcheners skyline we're talking about here) is 220 000, and that Waterloo, and Cambridge have thier own downtowns and skylines that are completely separate from Kitchener.

Originally Posted by koops65

You also need to consider that although the "metro" Kitchener area is 500 000+, the city itself (and it's Kitcheners skyline we're talking about here) is 220 000, and that Waterloo, and Cambridge have thier own downtowns and skylines that are completely separate from Kitchener.

And if we're looking at the 220,000 alone, that really would make the comparison to somewhere like Saskatoon a lot more sensible. Regina as well, but Regina's skyline seems to be in league with places like Halifax and London.

Still, I'm not sure the "multiple downtowns" excuse is really saleable when you consider that Hamilton has Burlington, Dundas, and Stoney Creek within its CMA. Yet, Hamilton's skyline seems fully appropriate for a CMA of about 700,000.

[JuelzJones]

ya i'm from Kitchener, I go to St. Louis adult learning center right behind city hall. Trying to get into Conestoga. I like Kitchener as a city though I think it's nice, but our skyline is horrendous.


I'm usually in Toronto though.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Cambridgite

Still, I'm not sure the "multiple downtowns" excuse is really saleable when you consider that Hamilton has Burlington, Dundas, and Stoney Creek within its CMA. Yet, Hamilton's skyline seems fully appropriate for a CMA of about 700,000.

It depends on the size of the main urban area around that downtown. Hamilton is, when you exclude its suburbs, a city of about 400,000. London is 350,000. Ottawa is about 600,000.

[Phil McAvity]

^the reason metro populations are more important than city populations (Portland Maine's population of a mere 63,000 is a perfect example) is because most of the people that occupy those downtown office towers are people from the suburbs that aren't part of the city population. That means that those people from the suburbs add to the city's vibrance, social scene, traffic and economic activity. I read years ago that the criterion for inclusion of a surrounding suburb, city or municipality was that at least 50 percent of the people must work within the city proper. The reason Kitchener's skyline is so weak is the same reason Thunder Bay's is-because it is more than one city.

[vid]

Burlington has a large workforce. So does Stoney Creek. Most people in Thunder Bay work in Intercity, not the downtowns.

Originally Posted by Phil McAvity

^the reason metro populations are more meaningful than city populations (Portland Maine's population of a mere 63,000 is a perfect example) is because most of the people that occupy those downtown office towers are people from the suburbs that aren't part of the city population. I read years ago that the criterion for inclusion of a surrounding suburb, city or municipality was that at least 50 percent of the people must work within the city proper. The problem with Kitchener is the same as Thunder Bay-it is more than one city.

I know the Statscan criterion you're speaking of. It's actually a little misleading because, while the urban core sounds like it means downtown, it actually means the continuously built-up urban area.

For example, in Toronto, it would include places like Oakville to the west (Burlington was included in Hamilton), Newmarket to the north, and Ajax to the east (Whitby is included under Oshawa).

For Kitchener, Waterloo and Cambridge are also included as part of the urban core. It is the nearby, detached communities and rural areas that need to meet the commuting threshold to be included in the CMA. Woolwich and North Dumfries Townships meet that criteria, for example.

There is also another criterion, every bit as significant as commuting data in determining who gets included into the CMA. If a CA (urban area of <100,000) gets absorbed by the expanding CMA, it is included as part of the urban core. Waterloo and Kitchener have been a continuous urban area for longer than Statscan has been around. Cambridge has joined more recently. I'm not sure why, but maybe it was less than 100,000 by the time they decided there was enough continuity between the Cambridge and KW urban areas. Neither Waterloo or Cambridge have anywhere near 50% of their labour force commuting to Kitchener though. Not even close.

Originally Posted by vid

Burlington has a large workforce. So does Stoney Creek. Most people in Thunder Bay work in Intercity, not the downtowns.

True enough. This pattern is even more exaggerated in the K-W-C area. According to my calculations, ~5% of the local labour force works in downtown Kitchener, which is absolutely miniscule. Even if you included all the downtowns together, it's still not a huge % of the labour force working there. In fact, the most desirable area for office space is suburban Waterloo. Some of the office parks up there rival those in the big 6 in terms of their size and style. And that's just office, not to say anything about industrial, institutional, and retail-based employment.

Actually, one of my former profs wrote a journal article about 'the dispersed city'. Conveniently enough, the Kitchener CMA was the perfect case study.

[koops65]

Here is another point to consider, one that probably gives Regina and Halifax big boost. They are Provincial Capitals, the seat of government offices and all the associated infrastructure that goes along with that. Fredricton and St. John's can also be included in this category. Thousands? (I have no idea of the real numbers) of people work in that sector in those cities, but are completely absent in other cities like Kitchener, London, Saskatoon, etc...