PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread II

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

While it is good news, I believe the 282 million is for the whole state. Septa realistically is probably getting between 120-140 million. So Septa needs more funding.
The government is asking for two things. One is increasing local funding from all five counties and two making Septa a safe and clean system.

Honestly I hope the city, Septa, and other counties can deliver on this.

Final point, sadly this budget keeps the lights on, but no service increase at all. Or addressing the bus operator shortage. Septa unfortunately need to raise fares but it hasn't been raised in years. With that, Septa is going need to grow back ridership and the city needs to upzone more especially around transit stations.

It's probably time for zone pricing on the subway like DC Metro and BART has. Nothing crazy but it's certainly not ridiculous to charge a little more for a trip from 69th street station to Frankford versus Girard to 15th for example. This would only really work with real turnstiles too that are not jumpable. It's insane that Patco has had perfect turnstiles for as long as I can remember but Septa still has the easiest turnstiles to jump. I believe some addict issues on the El would be easily solved with proper turnstiles. Not allowing people to ride the train for free would go a long way. You simply pull back the turnstile as if you're exiting and then you can enter for free.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

It's probably time for zone pricing on the subway like DC Metro and BART has. Nothing crazy but it's certainly not ridiculous to charge a little more for a trip from 69th street station to Frankford versus Girard to 15th for example. This would only really work with real turnstiles too that are not jumpable. It's insane that Patco has had perfect turnstiles for as long as I can remember but Septa still has the easiest turnstiles to jump. I believe some addict issues on the El would be easily solved with proper turnstiles. Not allowing people to ride the train for free would go a long way. You simply pull back the turnstile as if you're exiting and then you can enter for free.

Philly leaves so much on the table. The blighted properties that owners own free and clear of taxes is just remarkable to me. It would bring in millions and millions if they enforced that. The turnstile thing is just a total no-brainer.

I don't get it.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

While it is good news, I believe the 282 million is for the whole state. Septa realistically is probably getting between 120-140 million. So Septa needs more funding.
The government is asking for two things. One is increasing local funding from all five counties and two making Septa a safe and clean system.

Honestly I hope the city, Septa, and other counties can deliver on this.

Final point, sadly this budget keeps the lights on, but no service increase at all. Or addressing the bus operator shortage. Septa unfortunately need to raise fares but it hasn't been raised in years. With that, Septa is going need to grow back ridership and the city needs to upzone more especially around transit stations.

do not expect any notable increase in service while ridership remains below 2019 levels. The service levels are not being dictated by lack of money- so more money is not going to add up to more service. In addition, the operator shortage is not a financial challenge, its a lack of interest and a lack of retention issue.

[phishtown]

Originally Posted by cardeza

do not expect any notable increase in service while ridership remains below 2019 levels. The service levels are not being dictated by lack of money- so more money is not going to add up to more service. In addition, the operator shortage is not a financial challenge, its a lack of interest and a lack of retention issue.

If it's used well, more money could absolutely increase service. Increasing security and cleanliness would be a huge step and I don't think it's free.

Imagine how many more people would use MFL if it didn't smell like an outhouse with people shooting up next to you? or if the stations didn't feel like dungeons? What if it ran more reliably? Ridership would grow and then service.

As far as the operator shortage, I believe money talks. If you pay competitively, you get more people applying, more interest, more retention.

All these things together, which require money, would add up to more service over time.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by arkitect13

I really hope that one day the big box site in front of Northbank is eaten up and developed. A small mixed use continuation of northbank would just be amazing in place of those

For sure they will be. Ideally there would be mixed use buildings with ground floor retail, which would provide an anchor for the neighobrhood.

You can see in these pictures the grid is being extended through the southern portion of the site so it will connect with Beach Street closer to the Power Plant.

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by phishtown

If it's used well, more money could absolutely increase service. Increasing security and cleanliness would be a huge step and I don't think it's free.

Imagine how many more people would use MFL if it didn't smell like an outhouse with people shooting up next to you? or if the stations didn't feel like dungeons? What if it ran more reliably? Ridership would grow and then service.

As far as the operator shortage, I believe money talks. If you pay competitively, you get more people applying, more interest, more retention.

All these things together, which require money, would add up to more service over time.

Yeah I know they are broke but the MFL has to improve immediately. It is without a doubt the most vile and disgusting train line in America. It's especially pathetic when you realize we really only have 2 subway lines and 53 subway stations. I guess you can add trolley stations at 19th, 22nd and 33rd as well but you get the point.

I've lived in NYC and seen some stuff. I've taken BART, Chicago CTA, DC Metro etc. and nothing compares to the El. The layout is also shit so you're constantly forced to turn your back and it's so narrow so you are always in proximity to an unpleasant sight. Obviously it should be 2 long benches with standing room like in NYC. That would also prevent the first 2 rows of seats from becoming camping spots for addicts. I put most of this on the city/state because Septa shouldn't be in charge of solving the opioid epidemic in Philadelphia.

[DeltaNerd]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

Yeah I know they are broke but the MFL has to improve immediately. It is without a doubt the most vile and disgusting train line in America. It's especially pathetic when you realize we really only have 2 subway lines and 53 subway stations. I guess you can add trolley stations at 19th, 22nd and 33rd as well but you get the point.

I've lived in NYC and seen some stuff. I've taken BART, Chicago CTA, DC Metro etc. and nothing compares to the El. The layout is also shit so you're constantly forced to turn your back and it's so narrow so you are always in proximity to an unpleasant sight. Obviously it should be 2 long benches with standing room like in NYC. That would also prevent the first 2 rows of seats from becoming camping spots for addicts. I put most of this on the city/state because Septa shouldn't be in charge of solving the opioid epidemic in Philadelphia.

The city needs to take a harder stance on the fare evasion and install the patco fare gates. The city and Septa needs to clean the trains more. It's gonna have to happen. The same idea like cracking down on fake license plates.

They do quarterly surveys and most people are complaining about the dirtiness and how unsafe it feels. So more enforcement especially for the bad actors and keep the trains and stations clean.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

Yeah I know they are broke but the MFL has to improve immediately. It is without a doubt the most vile and disgusting train line in America. It's especially pathetic when you realize we really only have 2 subway lines and 53 subway stations. I guess you can add trolley stations at 19th, 22nd and 33rd as well but you get the point.

I've lived in NYC and seen some stuff. I've taken BART, Chicago CTA, DC Metro etc. and nothing compares to the El. The layout is also shit so you're constantly forced to turn your back and it's so narrow so you are always in proximity to an unpleasant sight. Obviously it should be 2 long benches with standing room like in NYC. That would also prevent the first 2 rows of seats from becoming camping spots for addicts. I put most of this on the city/state because Septa shouldn't be in charge of solving the opioid epidemic in Philadelphia.

Well SEPTAs argument is that the overall issue in Kensington (and in Philly at large when talking about gun violence) isn't their issue- they are just caught up in it since they run service through these neighborhoods. Some of it is excuse making, but there is some validity to it. Money is not going to make the addicts disappear so I would say a comprehensive plan by the City and SEPTA is much more important than SEPTA crying broke. I assure you, SEPTA will always say they need more money no matter how much they receive. Also, in terms of regular cleanliness, SEPTA does pretty well. What I sense is that many people here live in areas where they happen to be very familiar with the El which is by far the worst line SEPTA has in terms of QOL issues. The El needs to be addressed, but I would caution folks from presuming every aspect of SEPTA looks like the EL. Even the BSL doesn't look like the El. In fact, even catching the El from west philly to CC is different vs Frankford Terminal to Center City. The drug users, their trash and all that is associated with them is largely an El specific problem- and one that is not easy to solve unfortunately.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

The city needs to take a harder stance on the fare evasion and install the patco fare gates. The city and Septa needs to clean the trains more. It's gonna have to happen. The same idea like cracking down on fake license plates.

They do quarterly surveys and most people are complaining about the dirtiness and how unsafe it feels. So more enforcement especially for the bad actors and keep the trains and stations clean.

No amount of cleaning can guarantee you never see trash, needles or other unsightly things on trains- most trains are cleaned whenever they come to the end of the line which means they are at least swept multiple times per day- there is no cleaning while the train is in route for obvious reasons- but whatever you see on there likely has happened on that particular trip from the nearest terminal. I've seen the cleaning mid day at 69th street before trains head back eastbound. I'm pretty sure the same thing happens at Frankford. Either way, SEPTA is not claiming it can't clean trains due to lack of money- they are asking for money just to maintain current service levels.

The areas and underlying issues around the EL have to be addressed to see any meaningful change in terms of the drug addict passenger related nuissances.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by phishtown

If it's used well, more money could absolutely increase service. Increasing security and cleanliness would be a huge step and I don't think it's free.

Imagine how many more people would use MFL if it didn't smell like an outhouse with people shooting up next to you? or if the stations didn't feel like dungeons? What if it ran more reliably? Ridership would grow and then service.

As far as the operator shortage, I believe money talks. If you pay competitively, you get more people applying, more interest, more retention.

All these things together, which require money, would add up to more service over time.

Bus operator is a tough job with terrible hours. It is not a job many people aspire to get anymore. Thats just the way things are. Do you know anyone who is a bus driver or would seek to become one? I doubt it. SEPTA hires plenty of bus drivers- but many burn out and leave or get fired for various reasons including violating attendance rules. Similar to teachers, drivers are in demand nationwide- this is much bigger than SEPTA. To my knowledge, the operator shortage issue isn't nearly as acute as it was a couple of years ago and its not really the limiting factor for service- city transit service is essentially back to 2019 levels. Regional Rail is not however.

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by cardeza

No amount of cleaning can guarantee you never see trash, needles or other unsightly things on trains- most trains are cleaned whenever they come to the end of the line which means they are at least swept multiple times per day- there is no cleaning while the train is in route for obvious reasons- but whatever you see on there likely has happened on that particular trip from the nearest terminal. I've seen the cleaning mid day at 69th street before trains head back eastbound. I'm pretty sure the same thing happens at Frankford. Either way, SEPTA is not claiming it can't clean trains due to lack of money- they are asking for money just to maintain current service levels.

The areas and underlying issues around the EL have to be addressed to see any meaningful change in terms of the drug addict passenger related nuissances.

None of this is wrong. I'm saying to keep the trains clean, it's not more cleaning needed, it's keeping addicts off the train in the first place before they litter, shit themselves and leave needles. And the easiest way to do that is stop fare evasion. Surely most addicts are not paying for the train, any money they have is going to drugs. The El has the most QOL issues of any subway line in the country but has the easiest turnstiles to bypass...go look at the NYC, Path, Patco, DC Metro, Chicago CTA, BART and Boston T turnstiles. They are all way harder to jump. Also remember that BART, DC, Patco and LA you have to tap out of the system so it's harder to evade fares since you'll need to do it in and out. I'm not saying it's a full solution but it's definitely a really simple way to help the problem.

any word on this: https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news...gates/3529707/

[reparcsyks]

Without a doubt, if SEPTA made the process of getting on the train nearly impossible, it would deter a lot of the anti-social behavior on the train. I would be willing to bet that a lot of the shitty people on the El jump turnstiles and don't pay to ride.

SEPTA could solve so many of the problems by having close to 100% enforcement of paying fares before the trains leave the station.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

It's probably time for zone pricing on the subway like DC Metro and BART has. Nothing crazy but it's certainly not ridiculous to charge a little more for a trip from 69th street station to Frankford versus Girard to 15th for example. This would only really work with real turnstiles too that are not jumpable. It's insane that Patco has had perfect turnstiles for as long as I can remember but Septa still has the easiest turnstiles to jump. I believe some addict issues on the El would be easily solved with proper turnstiles. Not allowing people to ride the train for free would go a long way. You simply pull back the turnstile as if you're exiting and then you can enter for free.

Completely agree. It’s an enforcement of social norms and a deterrent of antisocial behavior. Stopping 80% of fare evasion would dramatically reduce the QOL issues on SEPTA.

[arkitect13]

Originally Posted by cardeza

I assure you, SEPTA will always say they need more money no matter how much they receive.

While you have a point to this I want to say, that compared to other Transit systems septa is majorly underfunded, on a per capita and total basis. Im not taking issue with what you said but generally they have reasons to cry broke when compared to others they are

[mcgrath618]

There is a turnstile pilot program currently in progress. You all as riders should send an email asking for an update on the project. SEPTA genuinely does respond to every email.

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by cardeza

Well SEPTAs argument is that the overall issue in Kensington (and in Philly at large when talking about gun violence) isn't their issue- they are just caught up in it since they run service through these neighborhoods. Some of it is excuse making, but there is some validity to it. Money is not going to make the addicts disappear so I would say a comprehensive plan by the City and SEPTA is much more important than SEPTA crying broke. I assure you, SEPTA will always say they need more money no matter how much they receive. Also, in terms of regular cleanliness, SEPTA does pretty well. What I sense is that many people here live in areas where they happen to be very familiar with the El which is by far the worst line SEPTA has in terms of QOL issues. The El needs to be addressed, but I would caution folks from presuming every aspect of SEPTA looks like the EL. Even the BSL doesn't look like the El. In fact, even catching the El from west philly to CC is different vs Frankford Terminal to Center City. The drug users, their trash and all that is associated with them is largely an El specific problem- and one that is not easy to solve unfortunately.

I agree with your statement in its entirety, but especially the bolded--both as a SEPTA rider and an insider at the Authority. The difference between the BSL and the El is palpable. The worst thing about riding the BSL is getting off at City Hall and walking up the extremely narrow staircases, but it's rare that I've had an unpleasant ride on the subway. While the situation on the El doesn't bother me as much as other people (it needs to be thoroughly cleaned up, but I will never be afraid of taking the El), we need to address it if we want to grow our ridership numbers. The fact that our highest ridership line is further behind in its pandemic recovery than Regional Rail speaks volumes.

Originally Posted by arkitect13

While you have a point to this I want to say, that compared to other Transit systems septa is majorly underfunded, on a per capita and total basis. Im not taking issue with what you said but generally they have reasons to cry broke when compared to others they are

IMO, we have every right to cry broke. SEPTA has been criminally underfunded given the size of the system. The system needs to be brought into a state of good repair ASAP, but that's a difficult task to accomplish when the capital budget has historically been much smaller than other peer agencies. The fact that nearly 10% of the capital budget is paid out to Amtrak for the right to access tracks and propulsion power along the Northeast and Keystone Corridors certainly doesn't help that effort.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by reparcsyks

Without a doubt, if SEPTA made the process of getting on the train nearly impossible, it would deter a lot of the anti-social behavior on the train. I would be willing to bet that a lot of the shitty people on the El jump turnstiles and don't pay to ride.

SEPTA could solve so many of the problems by having close to 100% enforcement of paying fares before the trains leave the station.

I agree. Also, I think there’s a lot of people in the city that would use SEPTA but choose to Uber or walk instead. It can get pretty dicey down there, so I don’t blame them. I’ve heard a lot of students at Penn and Drexel don’t even use it. They prefer to Uber if they want to come into CC.

If the City made the riding experience somewhat decent and deterred drug use, defication etc, they might actually be able to increase ridership and possibly avoid these funding issues.

[UrbanRevival]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

I agree. Also, I think there’s a lot of people in the city that would use SEPTA but choose to Uber or walk instead. It can get pretty dicey down there, so I don’t blame them. I’ve heard a lot of students at Penn and Drexel don’t even use it. They prefer to Uber if they want to come into CC.

If the City made the riding experience somewhat decent and deterred drug use, defication etc, they might actually be able to increase ridership and possibly avoid these funding issues.

Not saying I disagree in any way, but it's also fair to say that there's a negative feedback loop regarding horror story anecdotes for the exact things you describe. And even if there were improvements on these types of pervasive "QOL" issues, how many would-be riders would even know about them?

Not saying SEPTA needs to implement a "poop and needle index." But being MUCH more public about how they're working to restore sanitation/safety--and giving concrete images/videos of doing just that--would also go a long way for PR.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by UrbanRevival

Not saying I disagree in any way, but it's also fair to say that there's a negative feedback loop regarding horror story anecdotes for the exact things you describe. And even if there were improvements on these types of pervasive "QOL" issues, how many would-be riders would even know about them?

Not saying SEPTA needs to implement a "poop and needle index." But being MUCH more public about how they're working to restore sanitation/safety--and giving concrete images/videos of doing just that--would also go a long way for PR.

Yeah, it’s hard to turn around a bad reputation unfortunately. Maybe crime and QOL issues need to prove more broadly in the city before people start venturing down there again.

I tried using the Broad St Line a few times last year, mostly from Spring Garden into CC. The first few times I started using I saw a lot of stuff that caused me not to want to continue using it. I’ve lived in urban areas for the last 15 years. SEPTA is definitely not the MTA…

[Arch+Eng]

Speaking of caps. Can the small area to the east of FMC tower & EVO be capped? Are the rail lines already lowered? That hole always bothered me. Would be nice to have (2) more buildings right there.