Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[lrt's friend]

I'm really not sure what the complaint is here. That large amounts of buses provide express service? The transitway system is almost 100% in the suburbs to begin with. Some routes just serve outer suburbs better than inner suburbs. (I guess it's more like commuter rail than a subway system, but that's true of Calgary's LRT, and Edmonton's is basicaly half and half.)

If you look at Ottawa's Eastern Transitway, it was entirely built to serve as a suburban commuter route. The old city ended at the south end of the University of Ottawa, so Campus Station was the last truly urban station on the route.

The Transitways were designed from day one to serve suburban areas and to get suburban transit around overcrowded streets and highways.

Converting transitways to LRT doesn't suddenly change them into urban transit.

We have to remember that Ottawa was a small city in 1945. Fast growth began in World War II to administer the war effort and was followed by expansion of the federal government when the social safety net was modernized.

Unlike Montreal and to a somewhat lesser degree Toronto, there was not a large urban area to serve. Our limited streetcar network reflected the small size of Ottawa, which matches the old urban area.

It is hard to serve just the 'old city' and generate enough passengers or a long enough route to make it worthwhile.

The fact that Ottawa is probably 75% post 1945 suburban has dictated that suburban commuter service is a priority.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Toronto-style streetcars have all the problems you complain about on east end buses but worse. They're prone to bunching, they are easily blocked, they're re-routed and cancelled all the time with no notice and the bunching causes huge congestion on the lead car and on the sidewalk. They also have the added problem of boarding across a lane of traffic and being helpless if there is an obstacle.

They have the advantage of consistently high capacity and the near-impossibility of crappy driver training resulting in an uncomfortable or even dangerous, as is the case with OC Transpo's leaden-footed morons.

I'm familiar with both forms of transit. Everything else being equal, give me street railways over buses, please.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

You have a lot to learn on how to design effective transit. The benefit of busways is that you can keep the number of transfers to a reasonable level and eliminate the last mile issue. We saw how Rapibus offered only trunk line service when it first opened and ended up delivering worse service.

I'm sorry - is a three-kilometer busjam of half-empty, barely-moving "express" buses, which is what passes for bus crappid transit on the Ottawa model, "effective" transit or the other kind?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Beedok

Parts of the routes are fixed. You know there will be buses. Frequency is variable, but a city could slash Streetcar frequencies in areas too. Replacing rubber tires with rails doesn't suddenly make TOD spring up.

No, even better: it helps it SLOWLY spring up.

Bus Crappid Transit in Ottawa has been an abject failure at reshaping the city, and, since it is entirely driven at making coddled suburban asses comfortable (while downtown residents get to stand on overcrowded local buses), it has actually done its part over the past 30 years to contribute to ugly, inefficient, and economically wasteful suburban sprawl.

You don't make friends with salad, and you don't remake your city with buses, no matter how much you overbuilt rights of way and structures for them to use.

Calgary has had a bit more success in that department, but Edmonton doesn't really have loads of ToD (at least not in the NE end). Meanwhile Ottawa does have some developments, like the Minto Metropole or a bunch of towers in Kanata, sitting beside the transitways.

The "towers" of Kanata are not near segregated transitways.

I'm really not sure what the complaint is here. That large amounts of buses provide express service?

That large amounts of non-trunk buses using the Bus Crappid Transit infrastructure lead to inferior transit for all.

The transitway system is almost 100% in the suburbs to begin with. Some routes just serve outer suburbs better than inner suburbs. (I guess it's more like commuter rail than a subway system, but that's true of Calgary's LRT, and Edmonton's is basicaly half and half.)

But that's just it: express buses that can hop on or off the transitway are NOTHING like trunk LRT systems. Not in the way they are organized, not in the way they are used, not in their topology, not in their economics.

Bus Crappid Transit is a failed god.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The fact that Ottawa is probably 75% post 1945 suburban has dictated that suburban commuter service is a priority.

So is the GTA.

So is the CUdM.

So is GVRD.

So, especially, are Calgary and Edmonton.

And suburban commuter service is not "a priority" in Ottawa: IT IS ALL WE ARE DOING.

There is NOTHING in the transit vision in the next three decades for actual residents of the older city, except where, by inevitability, it is incidental to the goal of coddling suburbanites.

My downtown taxes are subsidizing LRT to Orleans, the south end, and Farrhaven.

My neighbourhoods are not only getting NOTHING out of the transit plan, we are seeing a steady erosion of the existing bus service, and no one at OC Transpo, no one at city hall, not even our local councillors, care.

[khabibulin]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Where? Are? People? Getting? The? Insane? Idea? That? Montreal? Road? Is? Narrow?

It isn't.

There are four lanes at the narrowest part of Montreal Road. Four generous lanes. Montreal Road is not "narrow" except by comparison to six- and eight-lane suburban car sewers.

Not sure if I agree with your definition of generous. Hydro poles would be within inches of your vehicle for 2 cars to occupy both lanes.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4369706,-...uK7TIZmipVlJQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I'm familiar with both forms of transit. Everything else being equal, give me street railways over buses, please.

All things being equal I would prefer a streetcar as well - they're quieter and have no lateral movement. But everything else is not equal. Streetcars (without their own right of way) are slower, more prone to delay, more prone to bunching, more disruptive for pedestrians, more disruptive for cyclists, more disruptive for drivers, more difficult for people with mobility issues, difficult to detour and (since the legacy system here was ripped up in the 50s) require an entire new infrastructure. You're right that they have higher crush capacities, but since the extra capacity is mostly for standers it is unclear it is a better experience for passengers.

[Spoonsy]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

bus crappid transit

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

bus crappid transit

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

bus crappid transit

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

bus crappid transit

k we get it

[rocketphish]

Construction Update
Week of August 1

Excavation of the running tunnel has resumed moving west from Rideau Station cavern. This week, progress is especially visible at both Blair and Cyrville stations, as crews continue installing structural steel and the station metal roof deck.

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Caisson installation at Bayview Station

West Stations

Bayview Station: Crews drill and pour caissons, and continue ground improvement activities. During construction activities currently underway, and for the safety of all Bayview pathway users, short-term closures are required. Flaggers are onsite to assist users.

Pimisi Station: Preliminary station work continues; crews install caissons, duct banks and mobilize to begin formwork and rebar installation.

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Rebar installation at Lyon Station east entrance

Central Stations

West Portal: Crocodile Rouge begins excavating the ramp and crews install reinforcements.

Lyon Station cavern: Work on the station concourse advances; crews install rebar and pour concrete. Arch final lining pours continue.

Lyon Station west entrance: The station begins to take shape as crews waterproof and install rebar and formwork for the elevator. Mechanical installations also occur.

Lyon Station east entrance: Crews install formwork and pour concrete for the elevator roof and walls. Mechanical works are finalized. The station concourse level continues to take shape; activities include utility and rebar installation as well as concrete pours. Reinforcements continue including dowel installation.

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Waterproofing Rideau Station cavern

Parliament Station cavern: Crews install formwork and rebar for the station L-walls. Mechanical and electrical works are ongoing. Crews work on the concrete slab.

Parliament Station west entrance: Crews install structural steel for the station head house and work begins on the metal roof deck. Excavation and reinforcements are ongoing at street level.

At the east vent shaft, crews continue line drilling and install reinforcements.

Parliament Station east entrance: Crews install rebar and pour concrete for the station walls. Structural steel work is ongoing. Excavation activities including line drilling occur at street level.

Traffic restrictions on Queen and O’Connor streets remain in effect.

Rideau Station cavern: Crews waterproof, install rebar and continue mechanicals works.

Rideau Station west entrance: Crews begin the final stage of excavation and install reinforcements including lattice girders. Rebar installation and concrete pours are ongoing.

Rideau Station east entrance: Crews waterproof and install rebar for the station walls and slabs.

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Rebar installation at uOttawa Station

Work continues at the East Portal ramp; activities include piling.

Traffic restrictions on Rideau Street remain in effect.

uOttawa Station: Crews pour the slabs and elevator pits. Station foundation construction continues with rebar installation. Duct bank installations are ongoing.

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Grade beam installation at Hurdman Station

East Stations

Lees Station: Crews continue installing caissons as part of station foundation work. Grading and trenching begin in preparation for utility work.

Hurdman Station: Grade beam and pier cap installation continue. At the bus operators’ building, masonry and electrical installations are ongoing.

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Structural steel installation at Tremblay Station

St-Laurent Station: Crews excavate, install masonry and continue grading work. Trackwork activities continue in the station. Construction of the electrical room progresses.

Cyrville Station: Structural steel installation and work on the station roof continues. Crews construct the parapet walls.

Blair Station: Crews continue constructing the station platform, roof and installing structural steel. Mobilization begins to install the station’s exterior wall panels.

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Installing the roof at Blair Station

Tunnel Excavation and Support

Running tunnel west of Rideau Station: Excavation has resumed moving west from Rideau Station cavern.

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Work on the embankment east of Hurdman Station

Guideway – Bayview CPR Bridge to West Portal, Mann Avenue Bridge to west of Lees Station, Rideau River Transitway Bridge to east of Hurdman Station and west of Tremblay Station to Blair Station.

Bayview CPR Bridge to West Portal: Excavation, granular installations and grading occur to prepare this section of the guideway for trackwork.

Mann Avenue Bridge to west of Lees Station: Crews continue grading, and prepare to install duct banks and Overhead Catenary System (OCS) foundations. Sewer work is ongoing.

Rideau River Transitway Bridge to east of Hurdman Station: Crews continue backfilling as well as building the retaining wall and embankment during the day and overnight.

West of Tremblay Station to Blair Station: Crews pull rail west of Tremblay Station. Ballast installation and tamping continue in preparation for vehicle testing as early as the fall. Crews install switch heaters and systems between St-Laurent and Blair stations.

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Progress at the Booth Street Bridge

Other Activities

CPR Bridge near Bayview Station: Crews begin rebuilding the CPR Bridge; activities include excavation for the west abutment, work on the piers and installing formwork for columns. Caisson installation is ongoing.

Booth Street Bridge: Crews are pouring sidewalks and deck work. Utility work continues in preparation for the reinstatement of Booth Street as early as September.

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Upcoming Construction Activities

In the coming weeks, the following construction activities are scheduled to occur:

• Demolition and removal of the existing structures at Tunney’s Pasture Station.
• Blasting at Parliament Station east entrance.
• Mann Avenue Bridge rehabilitation.
• Deck work at Tremblay Station.
• Watermain work near St-Laurent Station along the guideway.
• Traction power sub station (TPSS) deliveries along the alignment.
• Bus operators’ building construction and catch basin/landscaping work at Blair Station.
• Block wall construction at Blair Station.

http://www.ligneconfederationline.ca/construction/construction-update-84/

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by khabibulin

Not sure if I agree with your definition of generous. Hydro poles would be within inches of your vehicle for 2 cars to occupy both lanes.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4369706,-...uK7TIZmipVlJQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

Exactly. That's the stretch of Montreal road in Vanier where it's pretty tight at 4 lanes. That spot eastbound is so tight the buses will merge out of the right lane even if it's unoccupied. East of St-Laurent BLVD this isn't much of an issue.

[Aylmer]

The way I see it, the Rideau-Montreal LRT would ideally be underground from downtown to just about the Notre-Dame cemetery (just west of St Laurent) at which point the road is wide enough to provide ample space for dedicated transit, car, bike and pedestrian infrastructure. I see the problem of Rideau/Vanier not as an issue of vehicular space (since rail lanes can actually be narrower than bus lanes), but rather of pedestrian space; if LRVs are dropping off hundreds of passengers a minute onto narrow sidewalks, there's going to be problems. With underground LRT, it frees up two lanes of space aboveground for the needed higher-capacity ped infrastructure. Rideau could be slimmed down to two lanes with wide sidewalks, street trees, bike lanes and retail frontage (like patios or displays). I would argue that the same should happen on streets like Bank (north of Billings).

We should remember to put the horse before the cart: even though good transit can help bring pedestrians, only pedestrian activity can make a great street. So we should avoid sacrificing good ped infrastructure for good transit infrastructure.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

The way I see it, the Rideau-Montreal LRT would ideally be underground from downtown to just about the Notre-Dame cemetery (just west of St Laurent) at which point the road is wide enough to provide ample space for dedicated transit, car, bike and pedestrian infrastructure. I see the problem of Rideau/Vanier not as an issue of vehicular space (since rail lanes can actually be narrower than bus lanes), but rather of pedestrian space; if LRVs are dropping off hundreds of passengers a minute onto narrow sidewalks, there's going to be problems. With underground LRT, it frees up two lanes of space aboveground for the needed higher-capacity ped infrastructure. Rideau could be slimmed down to two lanes with wide sidewalks, street trees, bike lanes and retail frontage (like patios or displays). I would argue that the same should happen on streets like Bank (north of Billings).

We should remember to put the horse before the cart: even though good transit can help bring pedestrians, only pedestrian activity can make a great street. So we should avoid sacrificing good ped infrastructure for good transit infrastructure.

So, kinda like the Eglinton Crosstown?

[Aylmer]

I hadn't thought of it, but yes, almost exactly like Eglinton.





Aboveground where there's space:





Belowground where there isn't:

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I'm sorry - is a three-kilometer busjam of half-empty, barely-moving "express" buses, which is what passes for bus crappid transit on the Ottawa model, "effective" transit or the other kind?

Have you gone on those express buses? A good chunk are packed to the gills as double deckers until they get off the transitway in Kanta/Olréans/Barrhaven. Having been bored with a Upass I've ridden a number of them (I was new to the city and curious about what different parts were like, there's still a couple routes I'd like to take) you often had people in standing for half an hour or longer on routes out to the suburbs.

Originally Posted by Aylmer

The way I see it, the Rideau-Montreal LRT would ideally be underground from downtown to just about the Notre-Dame cemetery (just west of St Laurent) at which point the road is wide enough to provide ample space for dedicated transit, car, bike and pedestrian infrastructure.

Is there anywhere near the desnity past St Laurent to support mass transit? I mean there's a huge amount of greenspace and low density suburbia for Viscount Alexander Park, Rothwell Heights, and whatnot.

[Aylmer]

All those empty lots and fields could easily be improved and redeveloped to create new urban centres and medium/high-density neighbourhoods linked by transit. The potential is there, but all it needs is high-capacity transit and good planning to uncover it.

I could see a Rideau/Montreal Line run south from Montreal rd to Blair via all those essentially empty NRC fields with a massive new TOD, larger than Lebreton and Zibi put together. It would be a huge opportunity.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

All those empty lots and fields could easily be improved and redeveloped to create new urban centres and medium/high-density neighbourhoods linked by transit. The potential is there, but all it needs is high-capacity transit and good planning to uncover it.

I could see a Rideau/Montreal Line run south from Montreal rd to Blair via all those essentially empty NRC fields with a massive new TOD, larger than Lebreton and Zibi put together. It would be a huge opportunity.

There are brownfield and greenfield sites near transit all over the city - with much of it zoned for medium and high density. This isn't a zoning problem or a transit problem, it is a demand problem.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There are brownfield and greenfield sites near transit all over the city - with much of it zoned for medium and high density. This isn't a zoning problem or a transit problem, it is a demand problem.

Do you mean the city actually has done some future planning?

[Aylmer]

I can't think of a whole lot of areas serviced by the Transitway which are not compromised by other factors (eg: By a highway, in an industrial park, etc.) of any notable scale. I think that the NRC lands are both higher-quality land which could be served by higher-quality transit.

As for demand, I once interviewed Windmill's head of marketing and he showed me some interesting stats which showed that although demand for "lone" apartment buildings was cooling, the demand for the "complete community" projects (eg: Zibi, Lebreton, Oblates Lands, etc) is healthy and growing. The transit aspect amplifies this; property values and office rents are higher around high-quality transit (and, unlike the Transitway, few negative impacts on its immediate surroundings - no one wants to live on Slater) command higher values and retain it better. Combined with forecasted growth for the region, I cannot see much reason to dismiss TOD for lack of demand. There is quite evidently demand.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I can't think of a whole lot of areas serviced by the Transitway which are not compromised by other factors (eg: By a highway, in an industrial park, etc.) of any notable scale. I think that the NRC lands are both higher-quality land which could be served by higher-quality transit.

As for demand, I once interviewed Windmill's head of marketing and he showed me some interesting stats which showed that although demand for "lone" apartment buildings was cooling, the demand for the "complete community" projects (eg: Zibi, Lebreton, Oblates Lands, etc) is healthy and growing. The transit aspect amplifies this; property values and office rents are higher around high-quality transit (and, unlike the Transitway, few negative impacts on its immediate surroundings - no one wants to live on Slater) command higher values and retain it better. Combined with forecasted growth for the region, I cannot see much reason to dismiss TOD for lack of demand. There is quite evidently demand.

All of the land near hurdman (NCC). At least 3 sites near cyrville (the richcraft site where they had trouble selling low rise buildings, the site behind the church on Ogilve, and the site where the chipwagon is). Several sites near blair. The former MTO site on Tremblay (owned by the feds), Tunney's (owned by the feds), several federal government sites near the o-train. A large parking lot next to St. Laurent mall site. Plus a whole lot more phase 2 sites. Plus (as you note) the Sens want to put a lot of housing on Lebretton.

Two of the sites you mention (Oblate and Zibe) aren't particularity close to transit.

Besides, the vacant land on the NRC site is at the south end, beside CSIS, which is closer to Blair Station than Montreal Road. It would be a lot cheaper to build a people mover than a subway under montreal road.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by acottawa

All of the land near hurdman (NCC).

Mostly zoned for open space and the areas recently rezoned for development are being used by the LRT building site. I'd imagine this will change come 2018.

At least 3 sites near cyrville (the richcraft site where they had trouble selling low rise buildings

Low-quality lands beside the highway and in an industrial area only recently rezoned.

Several sites near blair.

Only rezoned in 2014 and near the highway.

The former MTO site on Tremblay (owned by the feds)

By the highway and not for sale (yet).

Tunney's (owned by the feds)

Well-located lands scheduled for redevelopment once LRT arrives. This might be a good analogy for the NCR lands.

several federal government sites near the o-train.

<

By a highway and the zoning does not permit any redevelopment (yet).

A large parking lot next to St. Laurent mall site.

By the highway and blocked from the transit station by the Mall itself.



I actually believe this to be the biggest problem with the eastern leg of the Confederation Line - it essentially follows the highway and its loopy, MTO-guidebook stroads and roads which surround it. It's a relatively inhospitable milieu for the kind of pedestrian-centred development required for successful TOD. Which is not to say that it won't attract riders (see Calgary) or can't attract development, but it will require the kind of compromises and attention to detail which the City has yet to demonstrate in its station area plans. It's not enough to build an LRT station and zone everything TD3; the wider environment must be supportive. And that will most likely mean reducing vehicular speed and perhaps even capacity (road diets, interchange reconfiguration, highway viaducts or tunnels, etc.) along what are now major arteries.

Wide non-highway arteries with lots of surface lots immediately surrounding it but surrounded by neighbourhoods beyond that (like Montreal Rd, Merrivale, Bank St south of Billings, St-Laurent, and certain parts of Carling) are ripe for solid TOD:
- They don't have any big obstacles to overcome (like a highway) with costly or potentially disruptive infrastructure changes.
- They are already surrounded by neighbourhoods which can make immediate use of new shops, urban spaces and services, unlike trying to jump-start an entirely new commercial artery in an industrial park.

These are the low-hanging fruit of TOD.

Where TOD is being built from the ground up, it's more difficult and sensitive to an unsupportive environment. That's why the NRC lands are one of the only truly viable places for it in Ottawa, whereas the areas you mentioned will take massive efforts to get going and are much more likely to fizzle into lacklustre shadows of the vision so often touted by the City.

Development isn't the only goal of transit. But in the long term, it's perhaps the only one that really matters.