Canadian Skyline Thread III

[Wigs]

That's a great aerial of Calgary.
My best friend is from Buffalo, and when he came to visit me his first impression was the skyline punches far above its weight and then stated: "I feel like I'm walking around Sim City with all of the twin buildings". And then I stated "There's also triplets and quadruplets" (Bow Valley Square)

Has anyone ever calculated how many twins there are downtown/Beltline?

[MolsonExport]

That aerial shot really shows Calgary's skyline heft (especially, density).

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by zoomer

Will this past decade be seen as a blip or is the strong growth likely to continue? I guess like all of Canada so much depends on immigration levels and the economy. At some point, and maybe this has already begun, some folks living in Toronto will determine that they can have a better quality of life in Hamilton than TO, especially if they have a long commute. And even then, if you want to see an event or spend the day in TO it's still not a big deal. From what I understand Hamilton has more outdoor recreation/hiking opportunities in closer proximity than Toronto and still lots of nice heritage neighbourhoods close to town.

niwell can tell you all about the Torontonians that bought places in Hamilton over the past 10-15 years. The ones that moved in the 2000s and bought single family homes for ridiculously cheap saw themselves almost as urban pioneers

The core of Hamilton has many nice residential streets. Durand is one of my fav residential areas and the streets off of or near Aberdeen Ave are great. Ravenscliffe is one of my favourites. Take a google streetview down and see the "castle" built by a Scottish immigrant around 1886? IIRC.
2 Ravenscliffe Ave
https://maps.app.goo.gl/oip25Z2vDz2Emue76

This Hamiltonian did a nice slow drone tour of Durand. One can get a condo for anywhere from $225k-$500k+, whereas SFH can be had for $1M-3M+
• Video Link

[Vin]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Victoria truly is a mini-Vancouver. I always loved the HBC condo and the tower they built.

One part of Vancouver: Gastown, is a mini-Victoria.

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

That aerial shot really shows Calgary's skyline heft (especially, density).

Calgary's downtown, combined with Beltline, gives a big-city vibe: more so than any Western Canada's major cities, and almost in par with Toronto.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by Vin

One part of Vancouver: Gastown, is a mini-Victoria.



Calgary's downtown, combined with Beltline, gives a big-city vibe: more so than any Western Canada's major cities, and almost in par with Toronto.

Just need the last of those parking lots along the CP rail line (and the two big parking lots in Eau Claire) to finally develop...

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by zoomer

and Calgary is becoming a mini-Vancouver, lol!

Well, not so mini - if I had my glasses off and was scrolling through quickly I could mistake that for the downtown Vancouver peninsula. Some of the buildings near the river at the bottom left are a decent height themselves, but they are totally dwarfed (small-personed) by the mass in behind.

DT Vancouver and DT Calgary are already a similar density. I think Calgary is kinda unique in how big and dense DT is for a city this size. People love to compare us to Houston, but our built form isn't really similar.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

Just need the last of those parking lots along the CP rail line (and the two big parking lots in Eau Claire) to finally develop...

Yes those areas are ripe for development. Instead our local developers seem to favour bulldozing the little remaining historical building stock we have left for new condos (*cough* Truman! *cough*). I guess they're proposing to build the new tallest on a parking lot across from the Stampede. I'm still miffed at what they've destroyed for 3 recent projects though (Gallery First and Tenth, Broward and Gresham Block).

Streetviews of what is now rubble:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ca...oASAFQAw%3D%3D

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ca...oASAFQAw%3D%3D

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ca...oASAFQAw%3D%3D

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

DT Vancouver and DT Calgary are already a similar density. I think Calgary is kinda unique in how big and dense DT is for a city this size. People love to compare us to Houston, but our built form isn't really similar.

I tend to hear Denver a lot more than I hear Houston. I think the Houston thing is just an offshoot of AB being compared to TX because of western cowboy culture stereotypes and the oil industry rather than anything specific to the cities' built form. I find the Denver comparison reasonable though, despite obviously not being perfect.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I tend to hear Denver a lot more than I hear Houston. I think the Houston thing is just an offshoot of AB being compared to TX because of western cowboy culture stereotypes and the oil industry rather than anything specific to the cities' built form. I find the Denver comparison reasonable though, despite obviously not being perfect.

I've heard Denver is similar too. I think we have a denser core than they do though. Also geographically we are much closer being beside the Rockies and also being a mile high city. I've only set foot in the Illuminati airport in Denver so I can't say for sure.

Agreed about the stereotypes for Houston.

[MolsonExport]

You almost never hear about Denver on SSP.

It has a nice, if somewhat underwhelming skyline given its metro size. Calgary's skyline is perhaps triple the depth/breadth of Denver's.


And like Otac, I have only set foot in the Illuminati Airport of Denver, changing flights with a four hour layover. Ate overpriced Shake Shack food. Good stuff, but the price is ridiculous.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

I've heard Denver is similar too. I think we have a denser core than they do though. Also geographically we are much closer being beside the Rockies and also being a mile high city. I've only set foot in the Illuminati airport in Denver so I can't say for sure.

Denver is about 600m higher in elevation, so quite a difference. We are the Kilometer High City, doesn't have quite the same ring though. lol

Also, our skyline is much bigger and prettier, though they appear to have the mid density done much better than we do.

[zoomer]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

DT Vancouver and DT Calgary are already a similar density. I think Calgary is kinda unique in how big and dense DT is for a city this size. People love to compare us to Houston, but our built form isn't really similar.

I haven't seen stats that show the downtowns of Vancouver and Calgary having a similar density, if you're referring to population density. Although it feels Vancouver doesn't have much room (other than a bit through relaxed height limits) to increase it so I assume Calgary is catching up. Then you get into what constitutes downtown and will Vancouver's be limited definition wise because of the bridges?

Are you referring to building density? I wonder if such a measure exists, taking the square footage of all building types downtown and dividing that by available land mass. That would be interesting to see and would give more weight to cities with a large CBD.

Also, why does Calgary have a quieter street life downtown if it has a high population density? Is it because people are more likely to drive or go further for dining, shopping, etc, or people are more spread out over a larger area?

[hipster duck]

Other than being the centre of the oil industry, there's very little that Calgary has in common with Houston.

Houston is flat as a pancake, extremely humid, and has lush vegetation everywhere.

So when I visit a new city for the first time, I have some expectations of what it's going to be like in terms of vibrancy and feel, and my expectations are usually met plus or minus a few degrees.

In North America, Calgary actually stands out because it was significantly better than I expected, while Houston stands out because it was significantly worse than I expected.

I came to Calgary with sort of mediocre expectations, and I was really very pleasantly surprised by the vibrancy of the Beltline and Mission areas, in particular.

I came to Houston with low expectations but, wow, it actually undershot them. Now, I'm not one to throw shade on metropolises of 6 million + because the numbers alone usually mean that enough people are doing interesting things and have formed a critical mass, and while I think that cities built around the car struggle to be as interesting as walking cities, it is of course possible and we have places like LA. So, given its size, I thought that Houston would be to LA like Toronto, say, is to New York. Nope. Houston didn't feel big as much as it just felt vast. And I struggled to find even two cool areas with independent retail - never mind walkable areas, I was just looking for old strip malls that had cool stores sustained over a few blocks.

[zoomer]

Originally Posted by Wigs

niwell can tell you all about the Torontonians that bought places in Hamilton over the past 10-15 years. The ones that moved in the 2000s and bought single family homes for ridiculously cheap saw themselves almost as urban pioneers

The core of Hamilton has many nice residential streets. Durand is one of my fav residential areas and the streets off of or near Aberdeen Ave are great. Ravenscliffe is one of my favourites. Take a google streetview down and see the "castle" built by a Scottish immigrant around 1886? IIRC.
2 Ravenscliffe Ave
https://maps.app.goo.gl/oip25Z2vDz2Emue76

This Hamiltonian did a nice slow drone tour of Durand. One can get a condo for anywhere from $225k-$500k+, whereas SFH can be had for $1M-3M+
• Video Link

This looks fantastic! My next trip to Toronto I'll definitely add a Hamilton day trip. A much as I like to see everything by foot, looks like I should do a tour bus as well to get a better idea of the city in the time I have. Definitely looks like I could spend several days there exploring but I like staying in just one hotel/one city typically when I travel.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by zoomer

I haven't seen stats that show the downtowns of Vancouver and Calgary having a similar density, if you're referring to population density. Although it feels Vancouver doesn't have much room (other than a bit through relaxed height limits) to increase it so I assume Calgary is catching up. Then you get into what constitutes downtown and will Vancouver's be limited definition wise because of the bridges?

Are you referring to building density? I wonder if such a measure exists, taking the square footage of all building types downtown and dividing that by available land mass. That would be interesting to see and would give more weight to cities with a large CBD.

Also, why does Calgary have a quieter street life downtown if it has a high population density? Is it because people are more likely to drive or go further for dining, shopping, etc, or people are more spread out over a larger area?

I'm talking about built form. Just look at google satellite view for both cities, very similar amount of high rises. Calgary does worse for street life as the majority of the buildings are office buildings whereas Vancouver is mostly residential. The office buildings make for busy streets at lunchtime on weekdays, but come 5pm everyone gets into their Ram or Audi and drives back to the suburbs. Vancouver has people living and working downtown, so it's much more vibrant.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

In North America, Calgary actually stands out because it was significantly better than I expected, while Houston stands out because it was significantly worse than I expected.

I came to Calgary with sort of mediocre expectations, and I was really very pleasantly surprised by the vibrancy of the Beltline and Mission areas, in particular.

I see a lot of comparisons between supposedly similar Canadian and US cities that don't actually make much sense, and I think Calgary being a "sprawly sunbelt-style oil city" fitting an American stereotype is one of those. In the scheme of US urban development it's probably closer to Portland OR than Houston.

Another thing I notice in Calgary is how, despite how fast it's growing, the infrastructure is still basically fine. I have never been in what I'd consider to be a major Toronto or Vancouver style traffic jam there. I can't help but notice that it has functional roads and a pretty good freeway system, which according to some urbanists is pointless due to a law of induced demand.

I've been going there semi-regularly for about a decade and recently I feel like areas like the Beltline have leveled up to a point where they're more consistently built up, more varied and interesting as far as businesses, the public realm is a bit nicer, and there's a decent amount of activity on a nice day. Downtown has perhaps declined a bit since the pre-covid era but it is not necessarily bad if it rebalances and some residential conversions and projects happen there. The overbuilding of office space is an endowment for the city now; the high-end can be used for nicer offices than otherwise would have existed and others can be adapted.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Vin

Calgary's downtown, combined with Beltline, gives a big-city vibe: more so than any Western Canada's major cities, and almost in par with Toronto.

OK, Calgary has a great downtown area which is more lively than a lot of much bigger US cities, like Houston or Atlanta, or Denver. The riverwalk is excellent and 17th Ave is lined with packed patios and a ton of street life.

I know his is going to cause trouble, but I am being completely objective here having been to Toronto many times, was just in Calgary 2 weeks ago, and live in Vancouver...

With as much respect to Calgary as possible, it is not close to on par with Toronto. Not many cities in North America are. I think only Manhattan actually passes Toronto's downtown.

I was walking around Calgary's financial district at around 430 PM Friday afternoon, and it was surprisingly quiet. As in not a lot of people walking around, and very few cars, and I was very close to the main LRT station. As I walked down 8 Ave to go to Earls for dinner, things got busier. There's a very good pedestrian only area there with lots of restaurants bars shopping etc. Very cool area to go to while in Calgary.

The Beltline is similar. You have concentrated areas of street life along 17th Ave, but also a lot of very quiet areas. Calgary does a better job than Vancouver (imo) of setting up the temporary patios, and there a lots of restaurants and bars to go to. One place I would recommend is a super cool spot called Pricket Richard, in basement space along 17th Ave.

But if we are going compare dt Calgary to DT Vancouver, I have to give the edge to Vancouver here. It is busier because there is simply more people living downtown, and there are far more people in the surrounding neighborhoods around downtown, like Kits, Mt. Pleasant, that make the short trip into the peninsula.

[Calgarian]

Vancouver is definitely on another level with street life, more similar to what you would expect in Toronto or Montreal than Calgary, Ottawa or Edmonton. Ottawa is much more similar to Calgary for street life with Edmonton lagging further behind. Byward Market in Ottawa is like Kensington to Calgary, but 10x better. We are improving and with an office vacancy rate still in the 30% range, residential conversions and new builds are going to continue the progress forward.

[Wigs]

I used to joke to Americans that Calgary is the 2/3 mile high city

Calgary seems to have a lot more high-rise residential.

Denver's core is pretty decent at midrise infill, which in Calgary is typically happening in the neighbourhoods outside of the core in like a 4-5 km radius from downtown.

Calgary, from what I recall and witnessed, seems to excel at building smaller scale residential buildings in the 4-6 storey range. And a ton of semi detached infill all over the older parts of the city.

Calgary's LRT CTrain crushes Denver's RTD light rail for ridership. Calgary typically gets ridership of over 300k/day to Denver's ~200k/day.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by logan5

OK, Calgary has a great downtown area which is more lively than a lot of much bigger US cities, like Houston or Atlanta, or Denver. The riverwalk is excellent and 17th Ave is lined with packed patios and a ton of street life.

I know his is going to cause trouble, but I am being completely objective here having been to Toronto many times, was just in Calgary 2 weeks ago, and live in Vancouver...

With as much respect to Calgary as possible, it is not close to on par with Toronto. Not many cities in North America are. I think only Manhattan actually passes Toronto's downtown.

I was walking around Calgary's financial district at around 430 PM Friday afternoon, and it was surprisingly quiet. As in not a lot of people walking around, and very few cars, and I was very close to the main LRT station. As I walked down 8 Ave to go to Earls for dinner, things got busier. There's a very good pedestrian only area there with lots of restaurants bars shopping etc. Very cool area to go to while in Calgary.

The Beltline is similar. You have concentrated areas of street life along 17th Ave, but also a lot of very quiet areas. Calgary does a better job than Vancouver (imo) of setting up the temporary patios, and there a lots of restaurants and bars to go to. One place I would recommend is a super cool spot called Pricket Richard, in basement space along 17th Ave.

But if we are going compare dt Calgary to DT Vancouver, I have to give the edge to Vancouver here. It is busier because there is simply more people living downtown, and there are far more people in the surrounding neighborhoods around downtown, like Kits, Mt. Pleasant, that make the short trip into the peninsula.

I agree with everything you said.

To me Calgary is different from Vancouver and Denver and definitely not on par with Toronto. If we're talking about office buildings and corporate towers it is second to TO in Canada IMO. But otherwise it's not even a fair comparison since the GTA has like 5X our population.

I've come to appreciate the older brutalist type elements of Calgary's DT that I used to find ugly. They offer a nice counter balance to all of the glass towers.

But what really sets Calgary apart from many cities for me is the amount of natural parkland that we have. You can go to Fish Creek, Nosehill, Edworthy Park or the Inglewood bird sanctuary from deep inside the city and feel like you're in the middle of nature. We may suffer from urban sprawl but I'm proud of the legacy parks that have been preserved.