Mobile Development Thread

[Exodus]

Originally Posted by Port_of_Bama

And another good point a loop is needed in this city. Mobile has some of the worse street level traffic to me. Interstate traffic gets dense but if flows and .I have notice an in increase in interstate traffic since I have been back home and street lavel traffic is another story(Springhill,Moffett,[B]Airpport[B],Govt, etc. I-10 needs to be 3 laned from Mississippi to Pensacola. There is substantialy amount of commuters from(Jackson,George,Green County Mississippi) that work and shop heavely in Mobile.

It IS terrible, the worst out of any other city I've been in. This place needs to beef up its bus system, or get a rail system, or another freeway, or something, and it needs it bad and asap.

[BlessedMobile]

Originally Posted by DirtySouf

Personally, I think a loop or bypass around the city is more important than an I-10 bridge. Mobile has serious infrastructure needs that could seriously hinder the city's development if not addressed early. However, most of those needs seem to exist in the western part of the city. A bypass or loop would not only ease congestion and help infrastructure but would also spur economic development, both residential and commercial along its route potentially all the way to the Mississippi line. Every major city where I have ever lived had a loop/bypass. Why would this not be a priority here?

The bypass was discussed when Schillinger annexation talk was the local buzz. The city is not in favor of any road that will encourage business and people to settle around a roadway that is not in the city. Most of the bypass would be on top of Schillinger and go through Prichard and Saraland before reentering I-65 by way of Hwy 158. We all agree that Schillinger is where snails go to get lost in traffic ( who would notice) The city and county would have to build the road and that is not on their wish list. You would have had to buy the land when the area was much less developed than it is now to pay an affordable price.

[BlessedMobile]

Originally Posted by MobiMan

Bogue

you made some good points one being that if the ramp leading into the tunnel were gone it would help a small amount, but still not enough,
as for the mythological fear of tunnels, thats not a myth but a fact, i know a few people that are very scared of those tunnels, and it has nothing to do with the ramps entering from the right side, they have a fear of being under ground, under water, in a tunnel that they fear may colapse or just a bad wreck within the tunnel could cause a cotastrophe, 1000's of people have those fears

ok the northern route you love so much just isnt gonna work get over it, oh and this is our city but that interstate is state and federal, so everyone has the right to use it as often as they wish
and the western highway is 30 or even 40 years down the road we need something done now



last but not least, it is completely ridiculous not to impede when need be, for Mobile to grow we need better access, better roads and we need them now, the longer simple minds hold this up the more its going to cost you and i later, and again its absolutely stupid to think Baldwin County is the cause of all these problems, and if i remember correctly we live in the United States of America, UNITED, we are all one country not 50 small countries, state and federal money pays for the interstate, your money, my money, new yorkers money and Baldwin Counties money, so they belong to all of us

I BET ALL OF YOU THAT ARE AGAINST THIS BRIDGE WILL BE THE FIRST ONES TO CROSS IT LOLOLOLOL

THEY SHOULD POST A SIGN THAT SAYS IF YOU WANTED THE NORTHERN ROUTE TAKE THE NORTHERN ROUTE
BUT THE REST OF US WONT BE SEEING YOU BECAUSE WE WILL BE TOO FAR AHEAD OF YOU

Mobi...it would please me to no end to make those northern lovers take the "long way" every time. Tell them it is the "right thing" to do for Mobile. Any time I hear or read of a "concerned citizen" speaking out against the bridge I just follow the money trail back to Old Mobile money or some business entity with unsupported claims of damage from the bridge. Maybe these people think that nothing can go on under a bridge or yearn for the bygone days of a 10 story skyscraper the Van Antwerp Building. Build the bridge...Build it now!

[buckett5425]

Mobile dosnt need a new bridge to replace the tunnel, it is a huge waste of money. What Mobile really needs to do, is take the money that would be spent on a new bridge, and instead develop public transportation, stop suburban development, and promote smart growth priniciples. The solution isnt in allowing more cars to travel faster, but instead getting more cars off of the roads. People shouldnt live 20 min from where they work, on the other side of the bay. People shoud live 5 to 10 min from where they work, preferably within walking distance. We as a nation spend way to much money on roads, which we really dont need at all....(this goes for every southern city)

[pboo74]

Can anyone give me some good eating places to eat at downtown,pizza,pasta,burgers,steaks etc... i'll b coming home for the holidays so i'am going downtown 2 support the eatiers there...

[Muskavon]

Originally Posted by buckett5425

Mobile dosnt need a new bridge to replace the tunnel, it is a huge waste of money. What Mobile really needs to do, is take the money that would be spent on a new bridge, and instead develop public transportation, stop suburban development, and promote smart growth priniciples. The solution isnt in allowing more cars to travel faster, but instead getting more cars off of the roads. People shouldnt live 20 min from where they work, on the other side of the bay. People shoud live 5 to 10 min from where they work, preferably within walking distance. We as a nation spend way to much money on roads, which we really dont need at all....(this goes for every southern city)

That is all great stuff buck...but unless you are going to enlist the help of the Gestapo to kill anyone who decides to live in Baldwin County (or wherever) or force their prices up 6,000% artificially....you can dream in a utopian world for the rest of your life and not solve anything. And beyond the Mobile traffic...what always gets ignored in this thread is I-10 at the tunnel is a bottleneck for thru-way traffic that sends goods and services across this country accounting for billions of dollars in lost time/revenue. We can nuke Mobile's entire population and it still won't solve the clusterf*&k that is the tunnel in Mobile. It will get fixed. You might as well get used to that. My suggestion is you find a way over the bay you can support. The one you have isn't going to hack it.

BTW, if you hate "sprawl" and people living all over...you shoulda first demanded that billion dollar steel plant not be built north of the county (guess what....that will become a continuous stream of buildings, fast food places, Wal-Marts and homes to Mobile proper now) and you should stomp out the racetrack in Prichard (same reasons). No growth unless it is weenie densification in the core!!! So silly. It is funny to me that the biggest thing that has happened to the Gulf Coast in 20 years (the steel plant) is actually going to cause larger commuter times and more sprawl than you ever dreamed of. Again, unless those German owners bring in Nazi guards...you aren't going to make the plant manager live in Mt. Vernon. Nor should you be able to.

[10101000]

So what New York is like that.

[buckett5425]

Originally Posted by Muskavon

That is all great stuff buck...but unless you are going to enlist the help of the Gestapo to kill anyone who decides to live in Baldwin County (or wherever) or force their prices up 6,000% artificially....you can dream in a utopian world for the rest of your life and not solve anything. And beyond the Mobile traffic...what always gets ignored in this thread is I-10 at the tunnel is a bottleneck for thru-way traffic that sends goods and services across this country accounting for billions of dollars in lost time/revenue. We can nuke Mobile's entire population and it still won't solve the clusterf*&k that is the tunnel in Mobile. It will get fixed. You might as well get used to that. My suggestion is you find a way over the bay you can support. The one you have isn't going to hack it.

BTW, if you hate "sprawl" and people living all over...you shoulda first demanded that billion dollar steel plant not be built north of the county (guess what....that will become a continuous stream of buildings, fast food places, Wal-Marts and homes to Mobile proper now) and you should stomp out the racetrack in Prichard (same reasons). No growth unless it is weenie densification in the core!!! So silly. It is funny to me that the biggest thing that has happened to the Gulf Coast in 20 years (the steel plant) is actually going to cause larger commuter times and more sprawl than you ever dreamed of. Again, unless those German owners bring in Nazi guards...you aren't going to make the plant manager live in Mt. Vernon. Nor should you be able to.

Well, you sure did prove me wrong. Obviously, a city with public transportation and a dense core is a utopian idea, because people have only been building cities that way for the past 5,000 years, minus the last 50 years of this century because of the automobile. As for the new steel plant, a nice small walkable community could be built near the plant that provides all the services that community would need, with public transportation linking the community to Mobile. It can be done, they way its been done for hundreds of years, you just have to give people the option, people want to live this way, which is why Traditional Neighborhood Developments have begun to replace subdivisions. If you really want to spend time in traffic, and watch all the crappy suburban sprawl take over your city, then enjoy it. But dont complain about traffic and the need to widen roads, because that will not solve a single one of the problems mobile is going to have in the next ten years. As for the tunnel causing billions of dollars in lost revenue and time, thats a wild exaggeration, I think you just want to see a new pretty bridge in your skyline, and who can blame you. I hope federal dollars do not pay for this project, but if you want it, build it, but im sure it will come with its own traffic problems. Bridges and tunnels always seem to serve as bottle necks.

[DirtySouf]

Originally Posted by BlessedMobile

The bypass was discussed when Schillinger annexation talk was the local buzz. The city is not in favor of any road that will encourage business and people to settle around a roadway that is not in the city. Most of the bypass would be on top of Schillinger and go through Prichard and Saraland before reentering I-65 by way of Hwy 158. We all agree that Schillinger is where snails go to get lost in traffic ( who would notice) The city and county would have to build the road and that is not on their wish list. You would have had to buy the land when the area was much less developed than it is now to pay an affordable price.

Well it should be on their wish list. I'm not from here and I'm unsure who does all the prioritizing and making decisions around here. I've truly enjoyed my stay for the past year and a half but cannot continue to deal with ever-growing infrastructure woes. I keep abreast of economic development issues and some projects are quite fascinating. However, infrastructure needs to desparately be addressed in and around the city. Although a new bridge is important, I personally don't think it is the most pressing issue. I think the city, county, and region needs to address roads and routes on this side of the bay including some sort of bypass, loop, or spur. The infrastructure is terrible, the worst I have ever experienced. Lack of infrastructure impedes progress. If ALDOT is not capable of this, maybe the region should contract the work out (BTW ALDOT is also the worst department of transportation I've ever experienced). Every other state can build roads adequately and efficiently on a local and regional level (except of course Louisiana). Sometimes I feel like I live in a time warp. Look around! It is not impossible. There is a way to drastically improve the current situation. If something is not done soon, I guess Mobile will remain a city of perpetual potential.

[Muskavon]

Originally Posted by (Tim)

So what New York is like that.

That's one of the funny things I think about NYC. People call it dense. Yes, the core is. But since NJ and Connecticut don't seem to be accounted in that equation...it seems like such a pretty model with all those tall buildings squeezed together. Well, I disagree totally. That city actually takes up about 70% of New Jersey and 10% of Connecticut. It is sprawl on top of sprawl on top of sprawl. Hell, it connects with our other models of "density"...Philly and DC in an almost unending sprawl of human population. What is even worse about that model to me is...no one there does much of any manufacturing or farming anymore....so they actually encourage (by demand) the rest of the US (and world) to sprawl while having the nerve to wonder why it is happening (we must all be stupid, of course, is the answer). If you are making steel, making paper or growing tomoatos...you or your industry are probably sending a good bit of it to NYC (and the actual greater parts), so they can carry on. If you want to get real liberal about it...you could call Miami the southern tip of NYC's massive sprawl like none ever seen on Earth. I won't mention their ever increasing need for water from everywhere else.

As far as NYC having interstate blockages and no one giving a damn...who goes into Manhattan on their way to some other place? From north or south? It is ok that traffic gets stacked up there. Not ideal, but ok.

[Muskavon]

Originally Posted by buckett5425

Well, you sure did prove me wrong. Obviously, a city with public transportation and a dense core is a utopian idea, because people have only been building cities that way for the past 5,000 years, minus the last 50 years of this century because of the automobile. As for the new steel plant, a nice small walkable community could be built near the plant that provides all the services that community would need, with public transportation linking the community to Mobile. It can be done, they way its been done for hundreds of years, you just have to give people the option, people want to live this way, which is why Traditional Neighborhood Developments have begun to replace subdivisions. If you really want to spend time in traffic, and watch all the crappy suburban sprawl take over your city, then enjoy it. But dont complain about traffic and the need to widen roads, because that will not solve a single one of the problems mobile is going to have in the next ten years. As for the tunnel causing billions of dollars in lost revenue and time, thats a wild exaggeration, I think you just want to see a new pretty bridge in your skyline, and who can blame you. I hope federal dollars do not pay for this project, but if you want it, build it, but im sure it will come with its own traffic problems. Bridges and tunnels always seem to serve as bottle necks.

I really don't disagree with what you are saying believe it or not. I'm just not sure you can really turn every Fred and Julie with the 3 kids and 2 dogs to live across from the paper mill in a neighborhood full of the same people they hate at work 10 hours per day. But it sounds good.

[Verve]

Originally Posted by DirtySouf

Personally, I think a loop or bypass around the city is more important than an I-10 bridge. Mobile has serious infrastructure needs that could seriously hinder the city's development if not addressed early. However, most of those needs seem to exist in the western part of the city. A bypass or loop would not only ease congestion and help infrastructure but would also spur economic development, both residential and commercial along its route potentially all the way to the Mississippi line. Every major city where I have ever lived had a loop/bypass. Why would this not be a priority here?

I'm not sure how a bypass loop in the western area will solve many of the traffic problems in the city. I don't see I-65 being a major traffic problem. Most of the problems occur on the east-west surface streets such as Airport Blvd, Dauphin St, Springhill, & Govt. Putting a loop around the city (which would have to be beyond Snow Road) will allow some of the through traffic to bypass the I-65 corridor but would do nothing to help alleviate the nightmare that is Airport Blvd between the mall area and Schillinger. It definitely won't do anything to help the bottleneck across the river and bay.

A bridge or another tunnel that doesn't disrupt commerce on the river or riverfront development is an answer to short-term problems. However as others have stated, we need to think long-term about reducing sprawl and coming up with other transit measures (light rail, etc). Now is the time to start focusing on that. We've had a warning about fuel prices that will make commuting by car become a bigger burden when gas prices rise again. We never seem to learn to plan for the future.

[BlessedMobile]

Originally Posted by DirtySouf

Well it should be on their wish list. I'm not from here and I'm unsure who does all the prioritizing and making decisions around here. I've truly enjoyed my stay for the past year and a half but cannot continue to deal with ever-growing infrastructure woes. I keep abreast of economic development issues and some projects are quite fascinating. However, infrastructure needs to desparately be addressed in and around the city. Although a new bridge is important, I personally don't think it is the most pressing issue. I think the city, county, and region needs to address roads and routes on this side of the bay including some sort of bypass, loop, or spur. The infrastructure is terrible, the worst I have ever experienced. Lack of infrastructure impedes progress. If ALDOT is not capable of this, maybe the region should contract the work out (BTW ALDOT is also the worst department of transportation I've ever experienced). Every other state can build roads adequately and efficiently on a local and regional level (except of course Louisiana). Sometimes I feel like I live in a time warp. Look around! It is not impossible. There is a way to drastically improve the current situation. If something is not done soon, I guess Mobile will remain a city of perpetual potential.

Dirty...you do live in a time warp. I thought everyone liked our bus schedule. You've told us something is wrong so tell us what your solutions are and where the money will come from. What infrastructure? and please don't say light rail and a bypass; those have been mentioned and explained away as not being feasible. Read "feasible" as too much money for too little return. So tell us where it is better and why?

[Bogue]

Mobi, not to question your reading comprehension but you completely misunderstood the point of my post.

I-65 connects with I-10 well west of downtown. US 98, US 43, & US 45 all empty onto I-65. All 3 of those are either before or just after I-165 diverges. All of that traffic can be circumvented around the tunnels w/ a minimum expenditure of cash (relative to the wasteful construction of a giant bridge) and w/ negligible impact on the business and commercial interests of the city. That eliminates traffic from most of the growth areas in the county from needing to use the tunnel altogether. This isn't the same as the "Northern Route" that you so churlishly deride. It's just a simple bypass to get traffic from points north and northwest across the bay without going through downtown at all. This is, afterall, part of the purpose I-165 was meant to serve. That's why it has so many virtually empty lanes. This is just an accessory route to the already extant Wallace Tunnels... not a full divergence of I-10 northward.

Without that traffic from I-65 coming in you take a huge chunk out of the tunnels and put it directly on the Bayway.


Also... the actual incidence of folks who are phobic of tunnels is MASSIVELY dwarfed by those with phobias of heights or open spaces. You would also have to be pretty severely Claustrophobic to have an issue with the Wallace Tunnels given their size & high ceilings. The bridge over the Mobile River will have to be extremely high to accomodate shipping. You trade one minor phobic influence for a much larger one.

The idea that fear of tunnels is a good reason for opting for a bridge is one of the least credible arguments made in this whole fiasco. This is why I referred to it as mythological.

Mobile's "access" by road is better than many cities of a similar size, actually. But it's funny you bring up "access" b/c this completely unnecessary bridge downtown would impede shipping access while wasting money on the pointless building of an unsightly monument that could be better spent increasing Mobile's (or in concert w/ regional bodies, Mobile's & one of our sister communities') access by air. Ultimately that is a much more glaring transportation issue that will be more more of an impedance to the growth of the area.

As for the ownership of a road. Everyone has the right to use any public road as much as they wish. That doesn't change the jurisdiction. All that impacts is the parameters at which a road is supposed to be built and maintained. If the state could just build whatever it wanted whenever it wanted then they would've built that western bypass a few years ago. The simple fact is that they're constrained by public will & the laws that govern the republic & the state. As they should be in a free society. Just because a person pays taxes doesn't mean they have an actual say in what another state or municipality does with its share. No one in Michigan can tell us what to do with our industrial incentive packages, nor can we tell Utah whether or not they can use federal tax money to salt roads at the ski resorts. The same principle applies within a state as well.

Baldwin bears very little fault for Mobile's issues in a general sense, but they are one of the largest segments that regularly require the use of the tunnel. In this very specific issue they are a big cause of the traffic. I fail to see how you can gloss over this. Without that increase in traffic associated with the suburban increase on the Eastern Shore there is virtually no regular issue with traffic at the tunnels. While it's certainly true that a majority of people passing through there are passers-through from I-65 & I-10 they don't constitute so large of a regular majority that they would put a strain on the tunnel on their own.

[Bogue]

Dirty, there are a couple of other reasons why the western bypass idea is an issue. Some of it might have to pass over the water supply to Mobile which brings in a host of environmental issues (esp. given their recent track record with that body of water), they originally wanted land on which an endangered (or maybe just "threatened") species (not a particularly glamorous one, the gopher tortoise, I believe) was common, and the way development has spread westward you're not far from the Mississippi line now if you put it westward enough. Might have to get cooperation from that state unless you bow it back around and at that point you're adding more miles onto the journey and unless all of that is controlled-access you're just going to eventually end up with another Schillinger. There are a lot of minefields to get through and the state just gave up on pushing for it.

They did have an article in the paper where they were building a connector road between Hillcrest and I-10 (it's been in planning for more than a decade, though).

The street-level stuff is really the only place where things can be done and that will be difficult because many of the prime options for widening into accessory thoroughfares have neighborhoods strung closely along them that would have to be displaced. Maybe eliminating a few intersections by carrying a few streets over Airport, etc. at major intersections would be a way to speed the flow of traffic. They're supposedly already doing all they can with lighting tricks. Not sure I believe it, but that's what they usually say.

Busing did get some momentum behind it when the gas prices were at their peak. I suspect when the economy recovers (God willing) and the price ratchets up again we'll see that momentum swing back to it somewhat. While I would love to see a lightrail system running from the airport to the Pleasure Island beaches it's just not cost-effective relative to the amt. of riders willing to do public transport right now.

[phoenixboi08]

I don't understand why they can't do something more around the area where the Cochran (Afrcatown...whatever it is) bridge is. I don't think any ships go PAST that point...so it CAN'T hurt the port...I don't know. I just don't think that assuming that a bridge will hurt the port is a fair assumption. I mean have you ever taken a look around? Huge engineering marvels are accomplished everyday! Who's to say that a decent solution can't be arrived at? I think we should start thinking of ways to make everything work instead of arguing why what's been proposed WON'T (the city does I mean). That always seems to be why nothing gets done.

[skycaptain]

I am constantly amused by our obsession with bypasses and loop roads. The cities without them want them. The cities with them want more of them. Of course, most cities have allowed so many driveway cuts directly off these roads that they no longer serve the through traffic they were intended to serve, hence the need for bypasses to the bypasses. When will we learn?

Since Atlanta completed its loop back in 1961, perhaps we feel we too must have one to be considered a true big city. I often wonder how Charlotte, Nashville and Birmingham managed to get so large with only a half loop? Didn't they read the handbook? Or, is it possible that bypasses/loop roads in themselves neither create nor prevent prosperity? Huntsville was not even connected to the Interstate system until the late 1980's, yet it managed to become Alabama's fourth-largest and fastest-growing city even before that connection.

Since the early sixties, Atlanta has tried to build its way out of traffic congestion. It has failed horribly. So, what makes us think we can just build, and widen, and build even more and have a different outcome than Atlanta's? Our traffic problems will only be alleviated in a sustainable way when and only when we start building our communities differently. Let's get our heads out of the sand!!

[Del]

Funny you should mention Atlanta - we just returned from visiting relatives who live outside the loop. The husband was bemoaning his daily commute and they're worried about their children commuting to high school. I was very glad to get back to poky Mobile with its two little skyscrapers.

[NitekKetin]

Someone should start a petition to name the proposed Bypass the Haziel Fournier Loop.

Happy New Years!

[CottonCity251]

Originally Posted by NitekKetin

Someone should start a petition to name the proposed Bypass the Haziel Fournier Loop.

Happy New Years!

oOokay...lol. Where'd that come from...why her???