CHICAGO | General Discussions

[thegoatman]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ Jesus, the median home price has gone up $40K in Atlanta in only 3 months!

Yikes.

The sunbelt is no longer a "bargain" coming from the Midwest.

Sure, most of it is still considerably cheaper than bos-wash or Cali, but high housing costs are definitely not what's holding Chicago back relative to other major US cities.

Yup. Mid tier cities like Nashville, Austin, Raleigh, Tampa, Denver, San Diego, and Orlando are all now more expensive than Chicago with the pay being low lol.

Phoenix, a destination for people leaving Chicago, is now more expensive than Chicago (Median is $410,000 now).

Bigger cities like Atlanta, Miami, Seattle, Portland, and DC are all more expensive than Chicago.

Chicago is truly a steal. World class city with mid sized prices.

[OrdoSeclorum]

Originally Posted by thegoatman

Not hating on Atlanta, lived in the city for many years. It has its positives (relatively safer, warmer weather, big black middle class that most of Chicago lacks, hilly), but its not in Chicago's league and never will be.

I don't understand why even people who understand the facts repeatedly repeat misinformation spread by disreputable media outlets about crime in Chicago. The violent crime rate in Atlanta is 4776 per 100,000 in Atlanta and 3263 in Chicago. Along with Atlanta, Denver, Phoenix, Nashville, Miami and Houston are all higher.

[moorhosj1]

Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum

I don't understand why even people who understand the facts repeatedly repeat misinformation spread by disreputable media outlets about crime in Chicago. The violent crime rate in Atlanta is 4776 per 100,000 in Atlanta and 3263 in Chicago. Along with Atlanta, Denver, Phoenix, Nashville, Miami and Houston are all higher.

Atlanta has a huge crime problem, it’s why the wealthiest neighborhood is openly talking about splitting from the city.

Imagine if Lincoln Park was tying to become its own city.

[Chi-Sky21]

Not sure how splitting from the city would help that much. Not like a car jacker would stop just because of a new imaginary boundary. Maybe if that new "city" had a much larger police force or it is walled off or something. If areas start doing this though you basicly make things even more segregated in the US between the haves and have nots....Escape from New York here we come!

[LouisVanDerWright]

Originally Posted by Chi-Sky21

Not sure how splitting from the city would help that much. Not like a car jacker would stop just because of a new imaginary boundary. Maybe if that new "city" had a much larger police force or it is walled off or something. If areas start doing this though you basicly make things even more segregated in the US between the haves and have nots....Escape from New York here we come!

I mean if the police department just isn't doing their job or local pols are hawking national political policies at the expense of locals...

I wouldn't blame parts of Chicago for trying to split if it meant they could leave the orbit of Kim Foxx. Unfortunately they would still be stuck with her since it's a county level office.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by moorhosj1

Atlanta has a huge crime problem, it’s why the wealthiest neighborhood is openly talking about splitting from the city.

Imagine if Lincoln Park was tying to become its own city.

Your comparison example also highlights another MASSIVE difference between Chicago and Atlanta.

Buckhead: 90,000 people / 24 sq. miles = 3,750 ppsm

Lincoln Park: 70,000 people / 3 sq. miles = 23,500 ppsm



To put that in perspective, here's Schaumburg:

Schaumburg: 79,000 people / 19 sq. miles = 4,150 ppsm

[thegoatman]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Your comparison example also highlights another MASSIVE difference between Chicago and Atlanta.

Buckhead: 90,000 people / 24 sq. miles = 3,750 ppsm

Lincoln Park: 70,000 people / 3 sq. miles = 23,500 ppsm



To put that in perspective, here's Schaumburg:

Schaumburg: 79,000 people / 19 sq. miles = 4,150 ppsm

This is why I laughed when ardecila said Chicago has the same sprawl as Atlanta. Atlanta is the least dense metro in America.

Proof: https://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/.../urban-sprawl/

Naperville, a far west car centric suburb, has a higher population density than the booming world class that is Atlanta.

Don't compare Chicago and Atlanta

[pip]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Your comparison example also highlights another MASSIVE difference between Chicago and Atlanta.

Buckhead: 90,000 people / 24 sq. miles = 3,750 ppsm

Lincoln Park: 70,000 people / 3 sq. miles = 23,500 ppsm



To put that in perspective, here's Schaumburg:

Schaumburg: 79,000 people / 19 sq. miles = 4,150 ppsm

Lakeview, just north and adjacent to Lincoln Park, has the same look and feel and looks the same density as Lakeview. But Lakeview is about 33,000 people a square mile. Both have lakefront parks. Is it the empty Lincoln Yards, where that steel company used to be, that throws the Lincoln Park density lower?

[Steely Dan]

^ well, it's a function of a couple things. one of them is that LP (the neighborhood) has more lakefront parkland within its borders.


Lincoln Park total land area: 3.17 sq. miles

Lincoln Park without lakefront parkland: 2.47 sq. miles

difference: 0.7 sq. miles



Lakeview total land area: 3.13 sq. miles

Lakeview without lakefront parkland: 2.80 sq. miles

difference: 0.33 sq. miles



so let's compute densities without lakefront parkland:

Lincoln Park: 70,492 people / 2.47 sq. miles = 28,539 ppsm

Lakeview: 103,050 people / 2.80 sq. miles = 36,804 ppsm

so we get a little closer on density.



another big differentiator would be the largely non-residential uses of most of the land in western LP along the river through the clybourn corridor, of which lincoln yards is a part. lakeview doesn't have any large low-population areas like that. once you remove the lakefront parkland from lakeview, it is SOLIDLY residential through and through.

if we remove all of the largely commercial and underused land in LP west of clybourn, we get a remaining land area of 2.15 sq. miles for where the people of LP actually live.

Lincoln Park: 70,492 people / 2.15 sq. miles = 32,787 ppsm

getting even closer.



and lastly, lakeview appears to have considerably more residential highrises piled-up along the lakefront than LP does. that would explain most of the remaining population density difference between the two.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by thegoatman

Tell me you haven't been to Atlanta lately without telling me you haven't been to Atlanta lately.

Atlanta is a more expensive city than Chicago nowadays. Chicago real estate is dirt cheap, Atlanta COL has absolutely skyrocketed these past two years. Please give me a link of a "cheap" 5 bedroom house in Atlanta, probably gonna be an hour+ outside the city in the boonies. OH AND ANOTHER THING. The pay in Atlanta is ASS. Minimum wage here is $15, meanwhile in Atlanta its fucking $7.25. Not only do you get paid here more, its less expensive! You get paid way less in Atlanta, and the COL is skyrocketing, no wonder so many people are getting displaced down there.

And these cities are drastically different. Chicago is a world class metropolis, Atlanta is an oversized suburb. Yeah Chicago has sprawl but NO WHERE near close to Atlanta, I lived in both and its not even close. You do not get more for your money in Atlanta lol. It's warmer and safer, thats it. The schools in the good districts near Atlanta (Cobb, Gwinnett, northern part of Fulton County) are fucking expensive, way more than Naperville or Oak Brook. APS, Dekalb Schools, and Clayco schools (where the "cheap" housing are) are just as bad as CPS.

There is no transit out of suburbia in Atlanta. Chicago has the largest commuter rail network in the country outside of New York. I just really gotta laugh at you saying Chicago and Atlanta have similar sprawl...Chicago is far denser with the best transit in this country outside of New York.

And (in my opinion) Chicago is a MUCH more beautiful city than Atlanta. Have y'all seen downtown Atlanta? yuck... All the inner city neighborhoods look the same, all big ass generic single family homes right next to skyscrapers. Chicago suburbs are way better than Atlanta suburbs. Atlanta has no water nor mountain features. Yeah the city is hilly, but the hills aren't visible and pretty like Austin. Chicago has beautiful Lake Michigan anchoring one of the world's best skylines, beautiful unique brick architecture, and tree lined streets in distinct neighborhoods on a perfect grid.

Not hating on Atlanta, lived in the city for many years. It has its positives (relatively safer, warmer weather, big black middle class that most of Chicago lacks, hilly), but its not in Chicago's league and never will be.

I know two separate people who have moved to Atlanta citing a lower cost of living in the past 3 years.

You're throwing this stuff at me as if the people seriously choosing between Chicago or Atlanta actually care about commuter rail or average density of tract housing. Most American families don't care about amenities or urban design, they want the biggest home they can afford with good schools and good weather. Even Chicagoans only care about commuter rail because employers are downtown. If your employers are scattered across the suburbs, then transit is basically irrelevant - which is exactly the situation in Atlanta with MARTA.

The reality is, if you're used to a car-centric suburban lifestyle then there's not much difference between Naperville and Johns Creek, except the weather is better in Georgia and (historically) Georgia is cheaper. They even have Egg Harbor Cafe in both places, lol.

I agree that Covid has seriously jacked up COL in Sunbelt metros but my sense is that this is temporary - they will respond like they always do, which is to permit a crapload of new housing and let COL plateau as the coasts continue to NOT build housing and get more expensive every year, and the Rust Belt continues to bleed population and spend tax money like it's 1960. The only reason COL increased in the Sunbelt in the first place is because they couldn't scale up building in the face of elevated demand, due to temporary factors like a building material and worker shortage.

[pip]

Thanks for the interesting breakdown and explanation!

[thegoatman]

Originally Posted by ardecila

I know two separate people who have moved to Atlanta citing a lower cost of living in the past 3 years.

You're throwing this stuff at me as if the people seriously choosing between Chicago or Atlanta actually care about commuter rail or average density of tract housing.

The reality is, if you're used to a car-centric suburban lifestyle then there's not much difference between Naperville and Johns Creek, except the weather is better in Georgia and (historically) Georgia is cheaper.

I agree that Covid has seriously jacked up COL in Sunbelt metros but my sense is that this is temporary - they will respond like they always do, which is to permit a crapload of new housing and let COL plateau as the coasts continue to NOT build housing and get more expensive every year. The only reason COL increased in the first place is because they couldn't scale up building in the face of elevated demand, due to building material and worker shortage.

I don't see the COL in Atlanta plateauing. It's one of the fastest growing cities in the country, the prices will just keep going up meanwhile the republicans in power refuse to raise the minimum wage. Atlanta was ranked the #1 city in the country for income inequality and lack of economic mboility. I guess you're right about the suburban part.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...Wm_kepmm0Mn81l

[ardecila]

Fast growth doesn't equal a rising COL unless basics like housing and food are constrained. Atlanta has had "fast growth" for decades but only saw the COL tick up recently. And it isn't even reliant on sprawl, Tokyo has had fast growth for decades but the COL has stayed basically flat because they continue to densify established areas. Etc etc.

If a metro has high housing costs, it is either a deliberate choice to privilege existing property owners (and their property values) over future growth, or it is the result of a serious resource shortage.

I dunno, maybe Atlanta is at a tipping point like California hit in the 80s where the government is ready to privilege existing owners and screw over new arrivals. I don't have a sense of the politics down there. Usually this kind of thing comes in the guise of environmentalism/conservation...

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by thegoatman

Tell me you haven't been to Atlanta lately without telling me you haven't been to Atlanta lately.

...

You do not get more for your money in Atlanta lol. It's warmer and safer, thats it. The schools in the good districts near Atlanta (Cobb, Gwinnett, northern part of Fulton County) are fucking expensive, way more than Naperville or Oak Brook. APS, Dekalb Schools, and Clayco schools (where the "cheap" housing are) are just as bad as CPS.

..

.

Appreciate your post and I think you made it known you've lived in Atlanta recently. I just wanted to pick on the bolded part though.

Yes, warmer. Atlanta safer - uh well you're comparing a city of over 2.7 million people to a city of just shy of 500,000 people. For any city, you have so many different areas. Chicago benefits from being much larger than Atlanta. Keep in mind that Chicago is large enough to have entire continuous areas that have more people than the entire city of Atlanta that are MUCH safer than Atlanta (and most cities for that matter). Near North Side, Lincoln Park, Lakeview, Uptown, Lincoln Square, North Center, Rogers Park, and West Ridge have a combined population as of 2020 of 544,563. It had 19 total murders for 2021 or a rate of 3.49 per 100K people. For the record, this is barely higher than the rate of Toronto for 2021 and lower than Seattle for 2021 (and Seattle's population isn't that much higher than this area's).

By contrast, Atlanta had 498,715 people in 2020 with 156 murders as of Christmas for a rate of 31.28 per 100K which is nearly 9 times higher murder rate than that part of Chicago with a similar population. But on that same token, I could find you some areas of Chicago that are probably double or worse that rate of Atlanta. Point being - Chicago is large enough that it's dumb to say it's more dangerous or safer than XYZ. i think this goes for most big cities. There are big areas of the city that are very safe and then there's parts of the city that are not. Labeling any entire city as such usually doesn't do it justice.

However, Just for the sake of your argument, I will. Atlanta actually in 2021 had a higher murder rate than Chicago by 3 per 100K and in January 2022 at least, Atlanta's murder rate was nearly double that of Chicago's. Chicago's increase the last few years gets press but Atlanta's has been bad. In 2018, Chicago had a higher homicide rate by a little bit but now Atlanta's is actually higher than Chicago's.

In 2021, Atlanta had a little bit of a lower robbery rate than Chicago but I believe Atlanta may have had a higher rate of aggravated battery/assault than Chicago. Burglary rates are lower in Chicago and motor vehicle theft is a bit lower in Chicago than Atlanta (this is NOT carjacking - carjacking is a type of robbery).

[thegoatman]

Originally Posted by marothisu

Appreciate your post and I think you made it known you've lived in Atlanta recently. I just wanted to pick on the bolded part though.

Yes, warmer. Atlanta safer - uh well you're comparing a city of over 2.7 million people to a city of just shy of 500,000 people. For any city, you have so many different areas. Chicago benefits from being much larger than Atlanta. Keep in mind that Chicago is large enough to have entire continuous areas that have more people than the entire city of Atlanta that are MUCH safer than Atlanta (and most cities for that matter). Near North Side, Lincoln Park, Lakeview, Uptown, Lincoln Square, North Center, Rogers Park, and West Ridge have a combined population as of 2020 of 544,563. It had 19 total murders for 2021 or a rate of 3.49 per 100K people. For the record, this is barely higher than the rate of Toronto for 2021 and lower than Seattle for 2021 (and Seattle's population isn't that much higher than this area's).

By contrast, Atlanta had 498,715 people in 2020 with 156 murders as of Christmas for a rate of 31.28 per 100K which is nearly 9 times higher murder rate than that part of Chicago with a similar population. But on that same token, I could find you some areas of Chicago that are probably double or worse that rate of Atlanta. Point being - Chicago is large enough that it's dumb to say it's more dangerous or safer than XYZ. i think this goes for most big cities. There are big areas of the city that are very safe and then there's parts of the city that are not. Labeling any entire city as such usually doesn't do it justice.

However, Just for the sake of your argument, I will. Atlanta actually in 2021 had a higher murder rate than Chicago by 3 per 100K and in January 2022 at least, Atlanta's murder rate was nearly double that of Chicago's. Chicago's increase the last few years gets press but Atlanta's has been bad. In 2018, Chicago had a higher homicide rate by a little bit but now Atlanta's is actually higher than Chicago's.

In 2021, Atlanta had a little bit of a lower robbery rate than Chicago but I believe Atlanta may have had a higher rate of aggravated battery/assault than Chicago. Burglary rates are lower in Chicago and motor vehicle theft is a bit lower in Chicago than Atlanta (this is NOT carjacking - carjacking is a type of robbery).

Good points. And yeah I'm defintely cognizant of the crime in Atlanta, it's skyrocketing so much that the richest neighborhood in the city is trying to secede.

I'm glad I moved up here couples years back. Chicago has its problems, but I much prefer it to Atlanta. I could understand why a large family would prefer Atlanta, its safer (in the suburbs), warmer, the houses are bigger, and (up until recently) it was cheaper than Chicago. Also Atlanta doesn't have the gang culture that permeates the whole city like Chicago does.

I'm young, single, with no kids, so Chicago is definitely the city for me! I was super bored in Atlanta, there are no neighborhoods like Lakeview or Wicker Park in Atlanta. The nightlife is far superior here. The transit is superior...you get my point.

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by thegoatman

Good points. And yeah I'm defintely cognizant of the crime in Atlanta, it's skyrocketing so much that the richest neighborhood in the city is trying to secede.

I'm glad I moved up here couples years back. Chicago has its problems, but I much prefer it to Atlanta. I could understand why a large family would prefer Atlanta, its safer (in the suburbs), warmer, the houses are bigger, and (up until recently) it was cheaper than Chicago. Also Atlanta doesn't have the gang culture that permeates the whole city like Chicago does.

I'm young, single, with no kids, so Chicago is definitely the city for me! I was super bored in Atlanta, there are no neighborhoods like Lakeview or Wicker Park in Atlanta. The nightlife is far superior here. The transit is superior...you get my point.

Glad you are enjoying yourself here. I mean we're talking about a city of 500K to 2.7M. Size doesn't mean one place will be better than the other, but in this case maybe.

Regarding your comment about suburbs - actually Chicago is safer in the suburbs statistically. And for some things, Chicago is actually much safer than the Atlanta suburbs.

The last FBI UCR that's available for both cities to compare like this is 2018, but back then the Chicago suburbs had a per 100K murder rate of 2.93 vs. 4.63 for Atlanta suburbs. I wouldn't call that "dangerous" for the Atlanta number but it's still a bit higher than Chicago's. For that year the MSA numbers for Chicago suburbs are not available for other crime types, but..

We can even look at 2016, which had a major increase in homicides and violent crimes from the few years prior just for the city of Chicago. Even back then the Chicago suburbs had a per 100K murder rate of 2.97 vs. 5.36 for the Atlanta suburbs. In 2016, the robbery rate in the Atlanta suburbs was 118 per 100K vs. 57.8 per 100K for the Chicago suburbs. In 2016, the aggravated assault rate in the Chicago suburbs was 93.5 per 100K vs. 195.7 per 100K. Both of these violent crimes were each of double in the Atlanta suburbs than Chicago.


Atlanta suburbs might be fine and safer than the city but it's not true statistically that its suburbs are safer on average than Chicago's suburbs. Even looking at individual suburbs, you have Naperville in 2018 with a population of almost 150K with a grand total of 21 robberies for the entire year. Bolingbrook next door with 75K people had 17 robberies. Then in Atlanta you have Sandy Springs with about 110K people with 43 robberies for the year. Naperville and Bolingbrook with double the population of Sandy Springs in that year still had fewer robberies than a suburb like Sandy Springs. Alpharetta had a robbery rate that year of 23.86 per 100K vs. 14.15 per 100K for Naperville. Des Plaines and Bolingbrook were also lower than Alpharetta which is considered pretty damn safe still and these suburbs in Chicago have an even lower rate.

[thegoatman]

Why doesn't Chicago have food trucks? I heard they banned them? There should be food trucks all over the city, especially near the lake and beaches in the summertime.

[VKChaz]

Originally Posted by marothisu

....

Atlanta suburbs might be fine and safer than the city but it's not true statistically that its suburbs are safer on average than Chicago's suburbs.
....

Just skimming through this thread, this is an important point. From what I can tell, the choice most commenters are presenting is in which upper middle class suburb to live. I suppose inner city crime could affect sense of safety in the suburbs depending on how people spend their time, but it isn't very useful to refer to such and such city (Atlanta, Chicago, etc.) as higher or lower in crime for people largely living and spending their time in suburbs.

[moorhosj1]

Originally Posted by VKChaz

I suppose inner city crime could affect sense of safety in the suburbs depending on how people spend their time, but it isn't very useful to refer to such and such city (Atlanta, Chicago, etc.) as higher or lower in crime for people largely living and spending their time in suburbs.

It's also true that a lot people in the Chicago MSA are more likely to live in the actual city than people in the Atlanta MSA.

• Chicago population is 2.7 million of a 9.5 million MSA, about 28%.
• Atlanta population is 500K of a 6 million MSA, about 8%.

[galleyfox]

As far as Atlanta housing prices go, that’s a metro that’s been walloped by SFH rentals recently, and I’m not sure it’s healthy when it’s half the housing market.

Wall Street investors bought a total of 40 percent of single family home purchases in the Atlanta area the third quarter of 2021, we just heard in this Senate hearing. And they made up 70 percent of evictions.

Truly an astonishing number. And it's only accelerating + spreading

https://twitter.com/toomuchme/status...171438592?s=21