Barrhaven LRT | Proposed

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

My understanding is that the cost of the vehicles gets factored in to the total cost. For example the vehicles for the Trillium Line were procured through a separate RFP process, but that contract just got attached to TNEXT's contract.

I was not aware of that.

So for Confed Stage 2, is it $4B or the $2.57B quoted in the CBC article? I assume that, if it's the $2.57B, maintenance and vehicles are not included.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Would a Bank Street Subway cost $400M per/km? Would it have more immediate impact on TOD and on ridership?

Ending at Fallowfield doesn't make much sense if you're only extending from Baseline to there...there's not much additional rider capture down Woodroffe and I don't think there would be much transfer traffic from VIA onto Stage 3. Perhaps i'm wrong. You either do full Barrhaven or not at all, IMO.

My vote is for not at all. Barrhaven LRT corridor has high bus ridership, but it has a poor cost/benefit case for converting to LRT.

I wish they had prepped a Carling LRT EA or refreshed other BRT EAs to get funding from the upper levels of government.

IMO if we are lobbying for funding our priorities should be:

1. Baseline BRT (Algonquin Station to Heron Station)
2. Kanata LRT extension (Moodie Station to Terry Fox Station only)
3. March Road BRT (to Terry Fox Drive at least)
4. Complete Chapman Mills/Riverside South BRT (Barrhaven Town Centre to Limebank Station)
5. Carling Avenue BRT or LRT (Lincoln Fields Station to Carling Station)

1, 3, 4, and 5 could be accomplished for the cost of the Barrhaven LRT - and they would actually solve existing transportation issues and spur TOD. Unfortunately, Baseline BRT doesn't feature prominently when the Mayor pushes for transit, and plans for 3, 4, and 5 are so out-dated that they don't have a chance to receive funding.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I was not aware of that.

So for Confed Stage 2, is it $4B or the $2.57B quoted in the CBC article? I assume that, if it's the $2.57B, maintenance and vehicles are not included.

Ok, I found the cost breakdown!
https://app05.ottawa.ca/sirepub/cache/2/...ccyz/57641110232020110229289.PDF#page=96

The cost of the Trillium Line vehicles was included in TNEXT's bid.

The cost of the Confederation Line vehicles are separate from EWC's bid cost and was included with the MSF Expansion at Belfast for $492m.
The EWC bid alone was $2.57b.
There were additional separate costs relating to Thales for the signaling system.

I was somewhat wrong in saying Confederation Line was $4b outright. It's closer to $3.1b + some division of the city costs and HST listed there (split between Trillium and Confederation).

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Ok, I found the cost breakdown!
https://app05.ottawa.ca/sirepub/cache/2/...ccyz/57641110232020110229289.PDF#page=96

The cost of the Trillium Line vehicles was included in TNEXT's bid.

The cost of the Confederation Line vehicles are separate from EWC's bid cost and was included with the MSF Expansion at Belfast for $492m.
The EWC bid alone was $2.57b.
There were additional separate costs relating to Thales for the signaling system.

I was somewhat wrong in saying Confederation Line was $4b outright. It's closer to $3.1b + some division of the city costs and HST listed there (split between Trillium and Confederation).

Thanks!

[Kitchissippi]

The Fallowfield viaduct should really be a separate road infrastructure project as it also goes over the VIA tracks, and benefits the free flow of traffic equally not just transit

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The Fallowfield viaduct should really be a separate road infrastructure project as it also goes over the VIA tracks, and benefits the free flow of traffic equally not just transit

One of the main focuses of the study was to ensure that it could be built in up to three phases:

0. Grade separations ($400m)
1. Extension to Fallowfield ($1.6b)
2. Extension to BTC ($1b)

[Kitchissippi]

My point is that it shouldn’t be charged to the transit budget. It unfairly inflates the figure in the public’s perception

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

My point is that it shouldn’t be charged to the transit budget. It unfairly inflates the figure in the public’s perception

I understand your point, but based on Stage 1 and 2, I'm not surprised it is included. The Booth Street Bridge was included in Stage 1 because it was essential to the project, while the 417 widening was not as it was not essential (and Provincial jurisdiction).

Stage 2, I believe the realignments of the 174, including the new overpasses at Montreal are included in the budget.

For Stage 3 Barrhaven, I wonder if VIA would contribute since the grade separation would benefit the HFR (but would not have contributed for Elwood since the VIA tracks are not moving).

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

For Stage 3 Barrhaven, I wonder if VIA would contribute since the grade separation would benefit the HFR (but would not have contributed for Elwood since the VIA tracks are not moving).

I think Barrhaven grade separations are a classic example of a 50/50 split between the City and VIA because it's due to both road and rail development, but that wouldn't rule out the feds funding 100% of it (whether or not that's through VIA).

[Kitchissippi]

Also, not sure if I’m reading it right, but it seems the Woodroffe roadway overpasses are included, which have nothing to do with transit. $1B for the Fallowfield to BTC is ridiculous even if the storage facility is included

[Mikeed]

Yes, I feel strongly that I'm on team "no" for running the LRT to BTC.

I feel like for both Kanata and Barrhaven the costs do not justify the upsides, since the upsides seem very limited. Personally, I feel like the money would be better spent on building out the most amount of transitways and transit priority measures across the city.

I feel like the transit systems of Kanata and Barrhaven should be more focused on getting people around these satellite cities and less on a commuter rail system for the AM/PM peaks, which is really what the Confed.Line is. Especially as the the Government has a planning priority directed towards decentralization and, now, working from home.

I think the strengths of BRT are only going to get stronger as we move forward into an era of electrification and automation of automobiles. I'm pretty bearish on self-driving cars, but bullish on automated BRT.

Personally, I would run the Confed.Line to Fallowfield and Terry Fox, and call it done. Design the best transfer hubs we can get. Lots of park and ride across the feeder transitways to these hubs.

We should be making plans so that we can get these projects into the Affordable Network for the next TMP, which I'm assuming would have a planning horizon of 2040.
I would like to say, these should be in the Affordable Network for 2030, but that's a big ask.

Baseline BRT (Algonquin Station to Heron Station)
Kanata LRT extension (Moodie Station to Terry Fox Station only)
March Road BRT (to Terry Fox Drive at least)
Complete Chapman Mills/Riverside South BRT (Barrhaven Town Centre to Limebank Station)
Carling Avenue BRT or LRT (Lincoln Fields Station to Carling Station)

[TheMatth69]

For me extending the Confederation Line to Barrhaven is a total waste of money... 3 Billions just in perspective is 1.5 times more expensive then Stage 1. Such a big amount of money to reach a suburb that will probably provide ridership only during rush hours...

OC Transpo really needs to check their priorities. Mass transit like a Light-Metro doesn't belong in a Suburb, espatially a low density suburb like Barrhaven. I'm sure expending the Trillium Line from Limebank to Barrhaven Centre is a much more viable option, double track at least 80% of the line and you end-up with a cheaper and still viable option for transit in Barrhaven.

[eltodesukane]

Video: Why American public transit is so bad (it also relates to Ottawa's LRT to the suburbs)
"Most cities have public transit systems that serve an outdated commute, and it’s impossible to get around except for in a car."
https://www.vox.com/videos/21529609/usa-public-transit-trains-buses-cars
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/...an-mass-transit-so-bad-it-s-a-long-story

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Mikeed

Personally, I would run the Confed.Line to Fallowfield and Terry Fox, and call it done. Design the best transfer hubs we can get. Lots of park and ride across the feeder transitways to these hubs.

I agree 100%! I have always said extending beyond Terry Fox is a waste of money. As for BTC, before the EA came out, I figured why not as it shouldn't cost much to convert the transitway to trains, but at $1B for about 4km of what should be mostly at grade track, it is a total waste. I would rather see that $1B go towards other transit projects (like Baseline BRT or a "Bank St" subway).

Originally Posted by TheMatth69

For me extending the Confederation Line to Barrhaven is a total waste of money... 3 Billions just in perspective is 1.5 times more expensive then Stage 1. Such a big amount of money to reach a suburb that will probably provide ridership only during rush hours....

Except it is actually only $1.6B to get to Barrhaven, since $400M is for grade separations that need to be done anyway (some of which have absolutely nothing to do with transit) and $1B is to extend it beyond Fallowfield (which doesn't need to be done).

[McC]

Curious why this would be something like 50% more complicated and costly than the Surrey-Langley Skytrain extension ($3B for >16km in 2019 dollars).

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by McC

Curious why this would be something like 50% more complicated and costly than the Surrey-Langley Skytrain extension ($3B for >16km in 2019 dollars).

I wonder if the [awful] geotechnical conditions around Barrhaven have anything to do with it.

[MountainView]

Originally Posted by TheMatth69

For me extending the Confederation Line to Barrhaven is a total waste of money... 3 Billions just in perspective is 1.5 times more expensive then Stage 1. Such a big amount of money to reach a suburb that will probably provide ridership only during rush hours...

OC Transpo really needs to check their priorities. Mass transit like a Light-Metro doesn't belong in a Suburb, espatially a low density suburb like Barrhaven. I'm sure expending the Trillium Line from Limebank to Barrhaven Centre is a much more viable option, double track at least 80% of the line and you end-up with a cheaper and still viable option for transit in Barrhaven.

So I haven't been following this thread in great detail but you sparked something in my mind with your last point.

I am wondering, if I lived at Barrhaven Centre, would it not be quicker for me to take the bus to Limebank and then Trillium line to Carleton as oppose to the Confed Line from BTC to Bayview and then south to Carleton?

At what point as I move either south or east in Barrhaven is it better for me to take a bus to Limebank, and then Trillium Line to Bayview and then Confed Line east Downtown?

I assume uOttawa students would almost be better transferring Trillium at South Keys/Greenboro and bus to Hurdman and then transfer to Confed Line?

I'll have to look back into the estimated travel times for this area and destinations. Cheers.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by MountainView

So I haven't been following this thread in great detail but you sparked something in my mind with your last point.

I am wondering, if I lived at Barrhaven Centre, would it not be quicker for me to take the bus to Limebank and then Trillium line to Carleton as oppose to the Confed Line from BTC to Bayview and then south to Carleton?

At what point as I move either south or east in Barrhaven is it better for me to take a bus to Limebank, and then Trillium Line to Bayview and then Confed Line east Downtown?

I assume uOttawa students would almost be better transferring Trillium at South Keys/Greenboro and bus to Hurdman and then transfer to Confed Line?

I'll have to look back into the estimated travel times for this area and destinations. Cheers.

If you were going to Carleton, getting on the Trillium Line at Limebank 100% would be faster.

But if you're headed downtown, or to uOttawa, the Confederation Line would be just as fast, if not faster and/or more convenient due to higher frequencies and probably better connecting service.

There was once a study into having commuter trains run from Fallowfield, up the O-Train corridor to Bayview and it showed basically no gains (for what would have been a complex project).

[Mikeed]

Honestly, if it was up to me:

When designing the termination of the Confed.Line at Fallowfield. The entire triangle lot and the node around that intersection with Woodroffe should be redesigned to create a really great VIA rail station, BRT transfer station and LRT terminus with some park and ride and mixed used transit oriented denser development. Would be a great place to inject some rentals into the Barrhaven.

Fallowfield triangle lot, and the VIA rail station, are unique characteristics of Barrhaven and we have an opportunity to really create something unique at the edge of the greenbelt and gateway to Barrhaven. Add a couple rental towers, maybe a Shoppers, Timmies/Subway. A library branch or some community aspect.

We could trench both the LRT & BRT, sinking most of the Park and Ride underground creating an completely enclosed transfer Hub and then redevelop the surface.

Something like what Algonquin Station was *suppose* to be.

[TheMatth69]

Do you we have any studies or estimates on how much it would cost to expend the Trillium Line deeper into Riverside South or even Barrhaven ? Isn't there already a proposed path for the Trillium Line, I think I saw something like that a few months back ?