Regina's Multi-Purpose facility

[grumpy old man]

@ Migs: Does everything have to be confrontational with you? A snide comment for every bullet?

Originally Posted by Migs

You are correct that there is only so much money in the bank but why shouldn't a new stadium get a piece of the pie? And why do you and architeck continue to avoid the fact that there is going to be private companies heavily involved in this project???

I have not avoided anything. If private companies come to the fore and pony up for the stadium that'd be great. I don't believe that will happen though.

And before dealing out another snide comment do read my previous posts on this matter. I'm all for you guys getting a new stadium. I've said that several times. All I'm trying to do here is give another viewpoint and more food for thought.

[grumpy old man]

Originally Posted by Migs

Down the line if that is what people want then why not? Are you against cities having museums? Those idiots in NYC sure didn't know what they were doing way back when...lol.

Did I say I was against museums? You just don't get it do you? You're so fixed on your singular POV that you simply won't entertain any discussion that even remotely threatens it.

You must be an absolute hoot at parties eh?

[grumpy old man]

Originally Posted by Migs

Sorry but that food is rotten. Oil revenues are on the way back up, unfortunately last year with the global economic crisis commodity prices took a hit, thankfully the world economy is rebounding and thankfully recessions like these only happen a few times a century.

While I suppose high oil prices are a good thing for a small part of the world, in general they do nothing for the majority.

Personally I believe oil prices will stabilize at a much lower price point for a good while. $60-$70~... This is not from a highly reliable source like CNN but just my gut feel.

Hey, all I'm sayin' is don't spend all the money before it get's deposited in the bank. If the world evolves as you would have it then maybe you can build everything your heart desires. Until then, maybe just build what is affordable.

[Archie Teck]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Wasn't it being thrown around that this would be possibly linked in with SLGA? If so we aren't really on the line as taxpayers for it. SLGA has netted somewhere in the area of 30 million in profits over the last while.

You need to understand it's a zero sum situation. If the $30 million from the casino were blown on the stadium, that's $30 million less going into the government coffers, and $30 million that has to be made up through taxes or debt.

Originally Posted by Nathan

So some of that "bad-habit" money can really be put to some good use here as well. Re-investing into sporting/cultural infrastructure.

Calling a football stadium "cultural infrastructure" is like calling a bag of potato chips a serving of vegetables... it's technically true but highly misleading.

But if football stadiums are now cultural centres, then I guess that makes Taylor Field a "sporting/cultural infrastructure". Why would you want to destroy that?

Originally Posted by Nathan

Are we also allowed to talk about the general influx of cash from Grey Cups to the local economy?

It's been talked to death but sure. Most people, even the ones attacking me, have conceded that the 2 days of increased activity every 8 years or so is hardly going to make or break a business. People that use that example often cite "economic activity", an undefined and vague term meant to hyper-exagerate the benefit of some thing they actually want for entirely different reasons. Nobody, ever, in the history of time, has gotten rich from spinoff "economic activity".

Think about it yourself. You live in an average house in an average community. The park behind you gets bought up by Lowes hardware, and suddenly thousands of people are driving down your street and buying gyproc and everything imaginable. Huge amounts of economic activity surround you! You notice a lot of litter, and sometimes people with supply trailers drive over your lawn when they are turning around. What about this "economic activity" puts even one cent into your pocket? You already know the answer: nothing. Economic activity is like a cloud, it comes, it goes, you can't capture or even accurately or honestly measure it.

What you need to think of is something tangible. For example, let's say you have a commitment from the Arabian Horse Show to sign a 10 year contract in which you'll make $5 million dollars. However they require you to spend $1 million on stable upgrades. Then you can draw a line between spending $1 million the stables to receiving $5 million in benefits. You can decide if it makes sense.

With this stadium idea, we have people happy to dole out $500 million but with no corresponding or realistic line to show how we'd ever get even a fraction of that back.

[Archie Teck]

Originally Posted by Archie Teck

So shall we look to see a much appreciated $2800 donation to the stadium web site this coming weekend?

We'll be watching the want-a-dome website on Monday to see if you made the donation! Should be interesting to see if you or anyone is willing to back up their confidence with an actual investment....

Originally Posted by Beadyeyez

With that being said, why wouldn't you want this to go ahead even more ...with the hope of getting your fingers in there to possibly make a buck or two. If I had the skills, I sure would look at this as a dollar to be made.

There's limits to what can be said publicly. However I would urge people concerned with government ethics and propriety to consider what we are looking at here.

It's a massive construction project, with a preliminary "study" funded entirely by public funds. The contents and details were kept in secret from the public, shared only with select companies and individuals - most of whom stand to gain political advantage or windfall profits by virtue of this leaked inside knowledge and the accompanying exclusion and impediment of their competitors.

In some jurisdictions, such a tainted process would never occur. Great pains would be taken to make sure the tendering process is open, honest, competitive and fair. In some jurisdictions, parties with conflict of interest are excluded from the decisioning process entirely. All potential bidders are given equal and unbiased treatment. Even the amount of contact allowed between bidders and the decision makers is strictly monitored and everyone is given equal opportunity and access.

But perhaps in some jurisdictions, such principles don't matter.

[Archie Teck]

Originally Posted by grumpy old man

While I suppose high oil prices are a good thing for a small part of the world, in general they do nothing for the majority.

You have that exactly right. Oil rose 300%. Did anyone's wages increase by 300%? Or 100%? Or even 30%? Nope.

That said, the oil windfall perhaps allowed the government to reduce sales tax by one point. So for an average person making $40k, and spending perhaps half that on pst-eligible purchases, the net benefit to them is $200 per year.

I say this to point out that even a giant commodity windfall trickles down to a pretty measly amount of benefit for the common man.

Originally Posted by grumpy old man

Hey, all I'm sayin' is don't spend all the money before it get's deposited in the bank. If the world evolves as you would have it then maybe you can build everything your heart desires. Until then, maybe just build what is affordable.

That's exactly my point as well. These stadium wannabe's remind me of that guy who got all excited in 1986 for his $10 an hour job at Buffalo Days. He got all excited cause he'd never made that much before in his life. He was so pumped up that he went out and bought a Fiero. Sadly, his job ended a week later and he's still trying to paying off the loan on that thing.

[Archie Teck]

Some sobering numbers from the recently completed Yankee stadium. It was originally estimated at $900 million, but during the course of construction, prices went up and up and up. Even in a time when labor and material rates fell through the floor due the US recession. One can only shudder to think how much the budget would have ballooned if not for that.

By completion, it had shot up to $1,500 million. Of that, $500 million came from the public and $1,000 million from the Yankees organization.

So that project, by scale, was 3X the Regina dome concept. But do the roughriders have ~$330 million to devote to the project? I think not. In fact I dare say they would hesitate to part with $3 million, let alone $330 million.

[Archie Teck]

Originally Posted by Migs

And your the one professing to know so much about stadiums when you call a concert that has 98% tickets sold a bad seller.

Migs: Selling 20,000 seats in a 40,000 seat venue is a flop. I doubt the 20,000 were all sold, as probably many were give aways and deeply discounted.

There have been rumors for months that the Canadian leg of the Aerosmith tour would be canceled due to poor sales. In the US, reviews were bad, and the chosen venues were not what the industry would regard as A-list.

Often such situations get covered up by public relation spin such as the performer having some vague and unverifiable illness or simply stated as 'personal reasons'. Enough performers have drug and other problems that the PR flacks are happy to let the public fill in the blanks with their own imaginary reasons, rather than having to expressly lie about the true reason for the cancellations. You probably don't believe me, but then again you probably believe Avril Lavigne really did have laryngitis and that's why her shows were cancelled.

In the case of Aerosmith, I don't think it's a fake injury. But I think a lot of business people are breathing a sigh of relief that it happened....

Of course, since this is coming from me, you'll dispute it automatically.

But maybe you'll listen if it comes from a different source though. Here's what Bizmology's Lee Simmons had to say in the article "For those about to rock, here's an aspirin":

"In the case of Aerosmith, promoter Live Nation was hosting the band at most of its company-owned amphitheaters, where it would have made more money off parking and concessions than from ticket sales"

And here's a quote from the CEO of Pollstar:

“It’s very difficult economics,” Bongiovanni says. “It’s not for the faint-hearted or the ones without deep pockets.”

Promoters have to work very hard to get any income out of a show, Bongiovanni goes on to say. You might see a nearly-full arena, yet a promoter might actually lose money on that 10 percent of seats that are unfilled."

Having some experience in that industry, I can confirm that's 100% true. Usually you have no idea until the last tickets are sold whether your event has the potential to make money. For an advance sell-out, that day comes early. But most events don't sell out, and if they do, it's on the final day due to walk-ups. But even with a sell out, there's a many sleepless nights until the event to make sure it comes off without performer or weather or other unforeseen happening that can completely erase your profit margin.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by grumpy old man

@ Migs: Does everything have to be confrontational with you? A snide comment for every bullet?

You'd swear I was a grumpy old man or something hey.

I have not avoided anything. If private companies come to the fore and pony up for the stadium that'd be great. I don't believe that will happen though.

What makes you think they won't? Is it just a hunch or do you know something that our Minister of Enterprise doesn't know?

And before dealing out another snide comment do read my previous posts on this matter. I'm all for you guys getting a new stadium. I've said that several times. All I'm trying to do here is give another viewpoint and more food for thought.

Its funny how your continue to say negative things about this project and then proclaim that you want it to happen. Manitobans.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by grumpy old man

While I suppose high oil prices are a good thing for a small part of the world, in general they do nothing for the majority.

Personally I believe oil prices will stabilize at a much lower price point for a good while. $60-$70~... This is not from a highly reliable source like CNN but just my gut feel.

Hey, all I'm sayin' is don't spend all the money before it get's deposited in the bank. If the world evolves as you would have it then maybe you can build everything your heart desires. Until then, maybe just build what is affordable.

What makes you think this stadium isn't affordable? And here in Sask we look at our resources as assets as methinks the world will always need the natural resources that we possess.

[Archie Teck]

Originally Posted by Migs

What makes you think this stadium isn't affordable? And here in Sask we look at our resources as assets as methinks the world will always need the natural resources that we possess.

If so, they why is the province unable to balance it's budget and still has a giant debt?

Can we maybe agree to postpone the expensive stadium until the future profits you predict are safely in hand? If what you say is true, it should only be a couple of years until we're fully funded. And with all that money rolling in, the cost to paint and clean up Taylor Field in the meantime will be chump change for us. What's $5 million when the big project is $500 million right?

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Archie Teck

Migs: Selling 20,000 seats in a 40,000 seat venue is a flop. I doubt the 20,000 were all sold, as probably many were give aways and deeply discounted.

I don't give a damn about the other dates of the Aerosmith tour. When tickets for the Regina date went on sale, the concert was a halfstadium setup where the stage would face the west grandstand (kinda like how Cirque de soleil only played half the the brandt Center last year). 20thousand of the 21 thousand seats were sold and that is proven by the fact that I purchased tickets a week before it was cancelled and was only able to get tickets in the temp bleachers. Please take off the tinfoil hat Quimby, this argument was brought about because you said tickets were lackin for this event when in truth, 98% were sold.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Archie Teck

If so, they why is the province unable to balance it's budget and still has a giant debt?

How much of that debt has been paid off since the current govt came into power? And the sudden drop in potash prices is why the quarterly numbers came out lower than expected (and they could turn out for the better once then next set of quarterly numbers come out).....thems the breaks with a resource rich province like ours. Sometimes you shoot too high on your numbers and somethings you have massive surpluses like last year.

Can we maybe agree to postpone the expensive stadium until the future profits you predict are safely in hand?

Until the world stops eating, using oil, and using nuclear power then I'll agree with that mindset. Thankfully those in power (Wall and Fiacco) are in my corner.

If what you say is true, it should only be a couple of years until we're fully funded. And with all that money rolling in, the cost to paint and clean up Taylor Field in the meantime will be chump change for us. What's $5 million when the big project is $500 million right?

Do you think the Toronto Maple Leafs should've thrown a coat of paint on Maple Leaf Gardens or were they stupid to build the Air Canada Center? Or how about this one, should the Moose Jaw Warriors of shut up about a new facility and stayed in the old Civic Center? Big picture, what will be more beneficial for the Band city?

[Archie Teck]

Originally Posted by Migs

I don't give a damn about the other dates of the Aerosmith tour. When tickets for the Regina date went on sale, the concert was a halfstadium setup where the stage would face the west grandstand (kinda like how Cirque de soleil only played half the the brandt Center last year). 20thousand of the 21 thousand seats were sold and that is proven by the fact that I purchased tickets a week before it was cancelled and was only able to get tickets in the temp bleachers. Please take off the tinfoil hat Quimby, this argument was brought about because you said tickets were lackin for this event when in truth, 98% were sold.

OK Jeff Albertson, now we know the whole story. Fact is the show was teetering on the brink of profit or loss, and that in what you claim to be their strongest venue.

Let's boil away to raw facts and take this back on topic:

2 concerts
1 year
1 concert sells 40,000
1 concert struggles to sell half that

If we can't even sell 2 of the top concerts in north america's boom town, how do you expect to sell dozens of concerts per year, year in and year out, decade after decade? Once facility charges skyrocket and take ticket prices with them?

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Archie Teck

That's exactly my point as well. These stadium wannabe's remind me of that guy who got all excited in 1986 for his $10 an hour job at Buffalo Days. He got all excited cause he'd never made that much before in his life. He was so pumped up that he went out and bought a Fiero. Sadly, his job ended a week later and he's still trying to paying off the loan on that thing.

Nope I'm the guy who went to university, paid off his student loan, and now makes a very good living.

How this for an analogy....these stadium naysayers (oh wait your the only one because gom says he wants a dome built).....these naysayers are like the old farmer who lives in Mortlach thinking that Saskatchewan is too small for anything good to happen, the old farmer who just loves his old 1969 Fargo halftonne truck, is too cheap to buy new tires for it and uses the excuse that the wires hanging out of his tires are good for grip while failiing to realize the tires are shot. Little do people know that this farmer has lots of land and lots of assets, poor old guy's truck broke an axel that was rusted and rolled his truck killing himself. Too bad he died before the was able to see the fruits of his labour.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Archie Teck

OK Jeff Albertson, now we know the whole story. Fact is the show was teetering on the brink of profit or loss, and that in what you claim to be their strongest venue.

Let's boil away to raw facts and take this back on topic:

2 concerts
1 year
1 concert sells 40,000
1 concert struggles to sell half that

If we can't even sell 2 of the top concerts in north america's boom town, how do you expect to sell dozens of concerts per year, year in and year out, decade after decade? Once facility charges skyrocket and take ticket prices with them?

You are making zero sense architeck. The Aerosmith tour was never configured to play 40K at Taylor Field, that was never the idea from the getgo. Look at it this way, we had 2 huge tours come through Regina of the (44K for AC/DC and 21K for Aerosmith). Of the 65thousand seats that were available for those concerts, we sold 64 thousand. Not that hard to comprehend the fact that that number is very impressive. Well I guess it is tough for some people.....lol.

[Archie Teck]

These comments say a lot:

Originally Posted by Migs

the sudden drop in potash prices

Originally Posted by Migs

thems the breaks with a resource rich province

Originally Posted by Migs

Sometimes you shoot too high on your numbers

It appears you do agree with the basic concept that windfall revenues are fleeting and unpredictable.

But this provokes a chuckle:

Originally Posted by Migs

those in power (Wall and Fiacco) are in my corner.

I would say you have twisted the truth about 180 degrees. You are in their corner, not the other way around!

Originally Posted by Migs

Do you think the Toronto Maple Leafs should've thrown a coat of paint on Maple Leaf Gardens or were they stupid to build the Air Canada Center?

It's a good example to consider. They already had a population with abundant disposable wealth relative to the availability of premium seats in a luxury facility. We do not.

The ACC had a business case supporting the investment in a luxury facility backed by realistic payback and profit projections. We do not.

It's crucial to understand the connection between having some existing basis first, rather than the illusion that if you build it, they will come.

ACC was built because of the overwhelming probability of support demand and profit. The customers, population, and demand already existed before the stadium was created.

You think things will work in reverse... that if we go into debt to create a Dallas style stadium, that the popuation of Texas including the Cowboys football team will happily relocate here.

It doesn't work that way. Luxury establishments spring up as a result of community wealth and demand, not as a pre-cursor to it.

Remember, this is a club that failed to sell out a regular season game earlier this year with a promising team on a very nice day. Maple Leaf tickets by contrast sell out at stratospheric prices every game without question, regardless of the weather, price or team performance.

[Archie Teck]

Originally Posted by Migs

You are making zero sense architeck. The Aerosmith tour was never configured to play 40K at Taylor Field, that was never the idea from the getgo. Look at it this way, we had 2 huge tours come through Regina of the (44K for AC/DC and 21K for Aerosmith). Of the 65thousand seats that were available for those concerts, we sold 64 thousand. Not that hard to comprehend the fact that that number is very impressive. Well I guess it is tough for some people.....lol.

Your steadfast denial of reality is admirable. But even leaving the dirty truth of the concert business off the table, answer these simple questions:

- Was the Aerosmith concert a sell out? (answer: no)
- How much economic activity did the Aerosmith concert generate for the city and province? (answer: zero)
- Did Regina sell out 1 stadium concert in 2009 or 2? (answer: 1)
- Did the roughriders have a sold-out season? (answer: no)
- Do the roughriders have hundreds of millions to build a stadium? (answer: no)
- Are there more than 5 big stadium shows that tour Canada per year? (answer: no)

These are basic questions that should factor into the analysis of whether we would pour a half billion dollars of money we don't have into a football stadium.

[grumpy old man]

Toronto's Air Canada Centre was constructed with no public funding. It had two professional league teams as tenants with about 80-90 home games in the books. It serves a market of about 10,000,000 people.

[grumpy old man]

Originally Posted by Migs

What makes you think they won't? Is it just a hunch or do you know something that our Minister of Enterprise doesn't know?

There are very very few companies in Saskatchewan that have the deep pockets to build a $350 million stadium. Has this Minister of Enterprise named a company or companies?

What makes you think there are big businesses lined up to pay for this stadium? Can you name one company that has stepped up and agreed to participate?

Originally Posted by Migs

Its funny how your continue to say negative things about this project and then proclaim that you want it to happen.

What negative comments have I made?