Halifax Stadium Discussion

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by someone123

Most of the main points of the article do not apply to Halifax:
-A small-scale public stadium to be used for a variety of events is being discussed. Nobody is talking about expensive features like a retractable roof. If it were a $200M cadillac stadium I would not support it and I think many others would change their minds.
-There's very little talk of using this for urban revitalization.
-There's no present pro sports team involved and there is no discussion of ongoing subsidy to a team, only maintenance of a public asset.
-We don't already have a stadium; this isn't like the cases cited in the article where teams are complaining about having to play in 20 year old buildings.

I'm also not sure about your assertion that the province cannot pay. My understanding is that capital expenditures often are not included in the deficit; the debt can go up while the books are "balanced". This may or may not be desirable but I don't believe that the province can be counted out at this early stage.

Your point is a good one.....here's my take on it... Capital Expenditures are usually borrowed to fund increasing the Provinces debt load....this in turn of course carries interest costs and possibly some repayment of debt....which would need to be budgeted for.
The problem really is....the NDP have never formed government in NS. They are still really feeling their way around. They have made some major blunders at the cost to taxpayer on the Provincial debt.
1) $200 million to buy forest property. (borrowed cash,increased debt)
2) $500 million to boost unfunded liability in Union pension fund (traded one liability for another, but borrowed to do it....now the pension is in a surplus situation....do we get our money back? nope)
3) $20 million loaned to Irving to upgrade equipment to bid on ship building. (added to the debt by borrowing money to lend it out to a private business????)
4) They raised the provincial portion of the HST by 25% (8- 10%) to fund a deficit budget, then Opppsy! geeee we actually have a surplus! But no wait....its not really a surplus because we double paid the university funding...so I guess the tax will stay.... WHAT!!!!

ARGGH ! Its really killing me when I hear Dexter say we have no money right now.........of course you have money.....he just hasn't taken it out of our pockets yet!

[ATL Stadium]

What we really need is a NEW LIBRARY at Shannon Park!

YES INDEEDY!

We have an urgent need for a Library for public use located in the north end of Dartmouth....

A 25,000 seat Library! Comfy seats, nice clean washrooms, plenty of public access via car, rail, bus, ferry.....maybe even a few (programs) books to read...and of course when your eyes are tired from reading... maybe a refreshing drink or hot dog!

Sounds like I need anew library card!

Atlantic (Library) Stadium ~ Atlantic (readers) Storm ~ Ride (read) the Wave!

[Keith P.]

The really troubling thing is that if HRM had built its new gold-plated designer library for the $35 million or so it should have cost instead of the $60 million or more that it will actually cost, we would not have even needed the feds or the province to take part. That $25 mil or so would have gone a long way to giving the people of Halifax the stadium that they now likely will not get. Shameful waste of money.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

There was some depressing information regarding the stadium in the allnovascotia.com. According to allnovascotia.com, Reg. Rankin, who strongly opposed the stage 2 study on August 9th, is now looking for support from HRM Councillors to can (cancel) the phase 2 study in next week's meeting (source: "No Province, No Stadium: Rankin" by Amy Pugsley).

Just when people on this forum were getting excited, Reg. Rankin steps forward ...............................

On one hand it's good that Dexter is getting called out on his poor decision but on the other hand it's sad that we have a number of councillors that are juist not in the game......and the city is too big for them to manage. A number of councillors simply can't think outside their own little box.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Empire

On one hand it's good that Dexter is getting called out on his poor decision but on the other hand it's sad that we have a number of councillors that are juist not in the game......and the city is too big for them to manage. A number of councillors simply can't think outside their own little box.

It feels like Mayberry Town Council. I half expect to see Reg Rankin introduce a motion to build a new gazebo that then devolves into a discussion over what colour of tulips should be in the adjacent flower beds.

It would be funnier if they weren't in charge of a fairly large municipality with more important issues that are being neglected.

[wespidel]

Fenwick the planning represenative that made the presenatation on the stadium from CR Planning said the the maxium amount of expansion could go to 30 thousand when asked the question by a councillor. Fenwick and site people this concerns me. The reason it does, is because the CR planning rep. also said that any expansion would be modular. The first thing I thought, especially where this gentlemen was European is that CR planning are associated with Nussli. Anyway I hope I`m wrong but it doesn`t sound very promising and it sure sounds like Nussli`s modular structure and design.

[c-way-dude]

I agree with Chris Cochrane in that we need a well-repespected local to provide organization and a focus for public support for a stadium.
What I think we really need at this point is to organize a pro-stadium rally in front of the provincial legislature. Try to get pro-stadium media like Cochrane and CTV Atlantic to promote it, and stress how important it is for anyone who wants a stadium to show up. Perhaps pro-stadium councillors could speak. Heck, even invite Peter MacKay, and any provincial politician who might be in favour.
Private support through e-mails, etc. are also important, but it would be a challenge to prove how many people are contacting the politicians. A successful rally would be more difficult to ignore.

[halifaxboyns]

I sent a couple emails today to a few Councillors. I didn't go so far as to say I hope they are replaced - I think that's a bit much.

But I am in the process of drafting my email to Councillor Watts. In it; I intend to say that a stadium has the potential to solve an issue near and dear to her and residents - the concerts on the common issue. If build to a good size (25k seats - and expandable) that she could solve that problem by providing a venue for many concerts to go.

I also intend to focus on the fact that the cost of the stadium hasn't been determined and is a range and will depend on size and location.

But what I also pointed out in my emails thus far is that if a good sized stadium was built; it opens the potential for more concert events to occur in Halifax - which often bring a lot of tourism revenue (that can't really be quantified accurately) to the city. If the stadium was build with an expandable capacity to 40k, I suspect if it already existed HRM could've easily gotten the U2 concert. Regardless, other big concerts could then use the facility and HRM could move to regain some of it's 'past concert glory'.

Although when I emailed Councillor Adam's - I did say I agreed with his frustration on the process - I think this should've just been 2 steps and not 3. I also pointed out that they all voted with going forward for the FIFA bid. So to not support a stadium (when they knew it was required) doesn't make sense.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I sent a couple emails today to a few Councillors. I didn't go so far as to say I hope they are replaced - I think that's a bit much.

You may think so, but I saw a few minutes of the proceedings and happened to see Reg Rankin's presentation and see the anger in his facial expression and hear it in his voice as he said that phase 2 should not proceed. The vote was 16 - 6 in favour of proceeding but Reg Rankin is still trying to find a way to stop it from proceeding. I honestly do hope that he is replaced in 2012 (or just eliminated because of the decrease in Council). Mainly because I want HRM to move forward and I believe people like Reg Rankin are holding the municipality back.

This was a vote on a study for $275,000 that will provide more detailed information than is currently available; his stated position would result in the HRM having to reject international and national events. If he is re-elected in 2012 then he will be replacing another Councillor when the HRM Council is reduced to 16 in the 2012 election.

[someone123]

I do not think that emailing councillors to tell them you hope they should get canned is an effective strategy to get them to change their mind about a stadium. However, many of them are awful. I hope the council size reduction helps.

[wespidel]

CTV Halifax local news reported at 11:30 pm that Peter MacKay will announce 70 million dollars in infrastructure money for NS. Forty seven or 50 million for the new convention centre and 20 or 23 million for other infrastructure. I wish it would be for the stadium which would definitely put Dexter`s govt. in a unpopular position where Dexter has stated he would not support the stadium project.

What`s so upsetting, is that I believe Peter MacKay caved in for Dexter`s wants and he has lots, so it`s probably for another project.

Since Harper`s govt. said there is no money for stadiums, makes me believe this will be the case. Too bad this was are only chance to get them all on board. I now would be shocked if Peter MacKay announced 23 million for the stadium when Dexter`s said he wouldn`t support a stadium, which probably explains why he said what he did because he knew prior after their meeting. Dexter did say it was two parts and unfortunately it seems like it will not be any money for the stadium.

PS. The only thing that is a bit odd, is the second part of the infrastructure money from Peter MacKay, is around 20 million which would be a third of a 60 million dollar stadium. You never know but it doesn`t look good!

[MaritimeCFLFan]

Getting to phase II is a positive development. Despite what Dexter said a few days ago about having no $ right now for a stadium doesn't mean he is shutting the door completely on a stadium. I suspect he is trying to wait out the Feds, HRM and possibly any private committment(s) before committing himself. I am anxiously awaiting Peter MacKays announcement on Monday to see if a stadium is mentioned at all. I have a feeling that in the end Halifax will get a stadium of some sort but exactly how large it will be is the question. I remain of the opinion that if it's not built right then don't bother wasting the $ on building it at all. Something in the 25,000 permanent seat range with expansion possibilities of 45,000 - 50,000 please.

[wespidel]

Well said, it backs up what my son said, what`s the point!


Well I thought of that as well last night! You could be right it`s depends on Peter MacKay`s move. Mr. MacKay does want a stadium and does want it built in Shannon Park. Mr. MacKay also discussed the stadium with Dexter last week-end as well as FIFA is a World event and it`s how Tor. got BMO field which the Feds supported. It`s interested because BMO `s stadium was 66 million. Halifax is talking about a 60 million dollar stadium. The old a third, a third , a third theory! We will have to wait and see.

It would certainly force Dexter somewhat to support the stadium or he would would become even more unpopular.

If this was to happen I believe it would be a 25 thousand permanent seat stadium because I believe there would be additional support to build it right.

The announcement seems to be coming at a time where both the convention centre and stadium are facing deadlines!

One interesting comment which is still not answered is what Peter MacKay meant when he said last week to Dexter`s govt.
Peter MacKay said Dexter`s govt. knows our position, in relation to his statement, Ottawa is ready to go!

[halifaxboyns]

But McKay's comment was that they were ready to go about the convention centre only? Not the stadium...

I agree that MCF - I think that Dexter is waiting to see what's going to happen. But McKay is going to be doing a very interesting balancing act if he supports this stadium. The feds already shot down Quebec (which in part cost them seats in Quebec in the last election) and if memory serves, they shot down another stadium that was seeking $ too (was it Winnipeg??).

Now if they support HRM's stadium - that will open the door to Quebec City (which may be a good thing for the PC's in the long run) but until there is anything official then McKay is going to be doing a tightrope watch about committing to it.

[resetcbu1]

I know L.A and HFX are apples and oranges, hell apples and potato for that matter but the city council in L.A have just apoved a $1.2b NFL stadium in downtown Los Angles WOW and even after a 16-6 vote in favor we don't know if our little 10 000 seater can make it to phase 2. Oh and the city of L.A has NO NFL team as the Rams and Raiders left town years ago.

I plan on sending some emails tonight to a few coucilers and particulary Rankin, although I no longer live there I am going to explain to them about how the regressive mentality of that city (with so much potenial) is what made me decide to leave and how many of my friends asked me when I left why I was leaving such a great place ? now those same friends that asked that are contemplating moving as well, it just took them longer to realize it that there often is more opertunity else where because of halifax's regressive municipal leaders (some not all) but for a few belive it or not this stadium issue could be the last straw as it has opened their eyes about how dificult moving forward can be there

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

But McKay's comment was that they were ready to go about the convention centre only? Not the stadium...

I agree that MCF - I think that Dexter is waiting to see what's going to happen. But McKay is going to be doing a very interesting balancing act if he supports this stadium. The feds already shot down Quebec (which in part cost them seats in Quebec in the last election) and if memory serves, they shot down another stadium that was seeking $ too (was it Winnipeg??).

Now if they support HRM's stadium - that will open the door to Quebec City (which may be a good thing for the PC's in the long run) but until there is anything official then McKay is going to be doing a tightrope watch about committing to it.

The stadium/arenas that you referred to in Winnipeg and Quebec City are intended specifically for professional teams. However, BMO Field in Toronto and Moncton's stadium did receive substantial federal funding because they were built for amateur events. It is easy to argue that not funding a stadium in Halifax for the FIFA Women's Cup is not in keeping with past federal funding practices (the federal government was prepared to give HRM $400 million dollars for the Commonwealth Games and the proposed stadium was more extravagant than what is currently being considered for the FIFA Women's Cup) .

[someone123]

Originally Posted by resetcbu1

I know L.A and HFX are apples and oranges, hell apples and potato for that matter but the city council in L.A have just apoved a $1.2b NFL stadium in downtown Los Angles WOW and even after a 16-6 vote in favor we don't know if our little 10 000 seater can make it to phase 2. Oh and the city of L.A has NO NFL team as the Rams and Raiders left town years ago.

There's a horrible little old Halifax attitude that is going away but still refuses to die. Part of that set of beliefs is that Halifax is not a real city (sure, it may have 400,000 people, but that's spread over an area the size of PEI, blah blah blah) and is not supposed to have significant ambitions. Poor quality infrastructure, poor planning, and parochialism are supposed to be acceptable. In extreme cases, local individuals aren't even supposed to be ambitious or successful.

The city needs to move past this sort of thinking if it is to be successful. People in Halifax should absolutely be looking at other cities, even larger ones like LA, and asking how solutions in those places can be applied to local problems. They should not adopt the defeatist attitude that, well, that's LA, and this is little old Halifax, so we should be happy with whatever we get.

[fenwick16]

Some negativity has been generated by Reg Rankin and Premier Dexter, however, the HRM Council voted 16-6 in favour of the phase 2 study. We will see on Tuesday, August 16 if Reg Rankin is able to introduce a motion to consider rescinding that approval. However, it is not on the upcoming agenda - http://halifax.ca/council/agendasc/d...10816ca81i.pdf. In my opinion, the biggest roadblock at this point is Premier Dexter's stance that the province won't commit to any funding. Based on the wording of his statement, this appears to be an attempt to sway the HRM Council to not support it.

I believe that overall HRM has a good municipal council which considers projects such as the convention centre and stadium in reasonable, logical terms. The biggest problem at this point is that I think the provincial government (specifically Premier Dexter) is out of touch with the majority of HRM residents. The NDP may also be misinformed on the cost of a stadium (some people are saying that it will cost $200 million dollars - at that price it probably would be a white elephant).

[FuzzyWuz]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

In my opinion, the biggest roadblock at this point is Premier Dexter's stance that the province won't commit to any funding. Based on the wording of his statement, this appears to be an attempt to sway the HRM Council to not support it.

I'm clinging to the hope that it's a clumsy way of avoiding a commitment until they get a firmer idea of what the cost will be.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

The NDP may also be misinformed on the cost of a stadium (some people are saying that it will cost $200 million dollars - at that price it probably would be a white elephant).

There needs to be a decision on cost range and location to move this debate forward. Dexter is in an awkward position because he cannot give HRM carte blanche to choose whatever scale of stadium they please, to be followed with 1/3 provincial funding.

It's sad that we are not there yet after 2 council votes (this time) and many, many reports. HRM spent something like 13M on Commonwealth Games stuff -- is that even being used now? It's like we start at square one every 5 years.