Halifax Stadium Discussion

[esquire]

double post

[esquire]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Is it just me or the benefits of a cfl capable stadium are not being communicated more often and clearly to the govt leaders. Hosting one Grey Cup is an infusion of $50-60 million in the cites economy.More tourism from fans coming to see games, buying merchandise and eating at restaurants. Possible Vanier Cup hosting I mean this is such a no brainer.

I agree completely.

If you tried to convince the average Halifax resident of the merits of building a permanent 10,000 to 15,000 seat stadium in order to house the Hamilton Tiger-Cats for about 5 or 6 games, most people would scoff. Yet that scenario could very well play itself out from what I've read here - just replace the words "Hamilton Tiger-Cats" with "FIFA Women's World Cup".

The reality is that with a small stadium Halifax is only going to house three or four WWC group stage games and maybe one knockout stage game. Ticket prices for the group stages (for Germany 2011) were comparable to CFL game ticket prices, with knockout stages being slightly more expensive.

Compare that one time 5 or 6 game event with decades of pro football and you can forgive us Manitobans for wondering what the FIFA fuss is about. Hosting one Grey Cup, with all tickets priced in the hundreds of dollars and snapped up by fans from across the country, will blow a handful of FIFA Women's World Cup games out of the water in terms of economic impact, number of visitors and exposure for the city.

It seems strange that Halifax will do anything to put up a stadium for a one-time relatively low impact event like the WWC but has a hard time even contemplating the prospect of making it big enough to accommodate a football team. For a city of Halifax's size, it shouldn't be this agonizingly difficult to put up a basic 25,000 seat park.

[halifaxboyns]

There hasn't been a decision on the size of the stadium; so thus there are three moving targets to this issue:

1) Size (number of fixed seats and temporary);
2) Cost (related to size and 'bells and whistles'); and
3) Location (cost to acquire land, etc.).

We can all keep talking in circles, but until the first two issues are nailed down it seems pointless to me. Because the decision could end up being 30k seats, expandable to whatever...until it's made, the cost isn't a fixed number. That's probably part of the reason why Dexter is unwilling to provide any support at this point - he doesn't know how much he'd have to chip in since the total cost isn't set in stone yet. I suspect once these two things will get nailed down, you might seem his tone change (depending on what gets decided).

I think Waye is being reasonable in posting the article he did - even though we may not go for the full hog (so to speak). Where I get troubled by those articles (and I've heard this from economists before) is that quantifying the spin off effects of things like stadiums and convention centres is really quite difficult. I could count something as a spin off, where if someone else did the math, they might not. It's very subjective and there is no one set formula it seems; so at best things are an estimate.

The other thing to remember, which doesn't seem to be mentioned for funding, is that there is always other sources of money to assist with the stadium. This came up in the public discussion - mainly from Councillor Sloane and I think it had to do with some of the comments from here on sponsorship or community support. Aliant, Eastlink, NSP - could all make corporate donations to help fund this. Someone mentioned a while back a municipal bond issue could be done - although I don't know if that's possible in NS or Canada, under the MGA. There is also the hotel room levy. It's 2% (last I heard). Now, that could be marginally increased with the additional revenue going toward the fund to construct the stadium. There is also a levy or fee on the back end, after construction that could be charged on tickets.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Is it just me or the benefits of a cfl capable stadium are not being communicated more often and clearly to the govt leaders. Hosting one Grey Cup is an infusion of $50-60 million in the cites economy.More tourism from fans coming to see games, buying merchandise and eating at restaurants. Possible Vanier Cup hosting I mean this is such a no brainer.

I think the article that Waye posted is meant to talk about the cost when there is a subsidy for a team. In HRM's case, it would be just paying off the cost to build the stadium and constant upkeep.

The difficulty with excepting the numbers for the economic spinoffs are there is no set formula. I just talked about that in my previous post; it's very subjective. So my numbers could be that a greycup would be only $20 to $30 million in tourism, but yet yours are higher because you factor in more that perhaps I don't.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by esquire

It seems strange that Halifax will do anything to put up a stadium for a one-time relatively low impact event like the WWC but has a hard time even contemplating the prospect of making it big enough to accommodate a football team. For a city of Halifax's size, it shouldn't be this agonizingly difficult to put up a basic 25,000 seat park.

Well there's a bunch of context here that may not be obvious if you haven't been following things for a while:

1) The local media play up problems and there are some crazy councillors who are always a source of "agony". Council voted 16-6 in favour of the stadium, which is pretty clear support. Even so, the local paper will present this as a "controversy" and interview 1-2 councillors for and against plus typically one random crazy person. And I'm talking about the "good" paper -- news in one local weekly now is basically just one anti-capitalist guy ranting ad nauseam.
2) There's the pro vs. amateur federal funding issue, mentioned earlier
3) There was the failed CWG bid. That was a disaster of poor planning and poor communication that poisoned the whole public debate around a stadium. Many locals are still acting as if a < $100M stadium is similar to a $1B CWG bid because they either aren't paying much attention or are trying to misdirect the whole debate.

On a more abstract level it's obviously true that Halifax can put up the money for a basic stadium. Projects in the $40-60M range are routine for the municipality -- they happen every year or so. They are nothing special but there is nevertheless always an "OH MY GOD THEY WANT TO SPEND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS!" contingent that just doesn't understand that, for example, a $500k a year maintenance bill on the stadium is on the order of $1 per person per year for the city. Freaking out over that is like a person agonizing over whether they should buy a sandwich or pack a lunch in the morning.

[fenwick16]

Regarding this article in the Chronicle Herald:

(source: http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/1257741.html )

Dexter: No stadium cash right now

Thu, Aug 11, 2011 - 4:55 AM
The province isn’t ready to back a stadium in Halifax Regional Municipality, Premier Darrell Dexter said Wednesday.

The province has committed funding for three major projects — the Muskrat Falls subsea power line, a proposed convention centre for downtown Halifax, and to promote a Nova Scotia shipyard for the national shipbuilding bid, Dexter said.

Given those demands, he said the province cannot commit to funding a stadium right now.

"We’re not in a position, at this point, to jump in on the front end, but we leave open the question of the business case that can be made for this kind of facility," Dexter said at a Cole Harbour news conference.

"Maybe at some point in the future, we’ll be able to reassess that. If . . . the economy’s better and we have more money, then more things become possible, but not right now."

Halifax regional council voted this week to proceed with Phase 2 of a stadium analysis. Councillors supporting a stadium, which could cost up to $60 million, say the other levels of government should help pay for it.

Based on the terms of the agreement with Rank Inc., the province won't contribute anything to the convention centre until 2015 at the earliest (probably it will actually start in 2016 due to the delays). Even then in 2016, it won't be a lump sum but yearly lease payments which will be offset by revenue and the increased PST portion of HST on tourist dollars. So this is hardly a financial concern to the provincial government. The Muskrat Falls subsea power line is through Emera - so how will the province be contributing financially?

It seems as though the only real tax dollars that have been committed are to the Irving Shipyards. It seems to me that Premier Dexter's position regarding the 3 large commitments is more fear mongering than real money being spent.

In any case, I hope that no one will try to bring a motion to rescind the commitment to phase 2 at the next HRM Council meeting because of the lack of provincial commitment. I hope that the phase 2 study will be on par with the convention centre feasibility study done in May, 2007 by WHW Architects - https://conventioncentreinfo.com/wp-...tudy-Vol-1.pdf . I certainly hope that the stadium will be able to start construction in 2012 to be ready for the 2014 under 20 women's FIFA tournament. But if not, then at least there will be a substantial amount of effort that will have been put into the design and location.

[halifaxboyns]

One thing I don't like about this process; has been the 3 steps. I think Councillor Adams was frustrated with it too (if I recall correctly).

It seems to me to be more logical to have done 2 steps - with all the study, costing and location analysis in the first part; then decide to go to step 2 to build. Then again, they (council) voted for the 3 step process. I guess live and learn right!

[FuzzyWuz]

Originally Posted by Empire

If Calgary can support 115 national head offices Halifax should be able to support 25. Quite a surprise that there are none in Halifax!

But the sierra report says, "Canadian business pattern data from Statistics Canada (2009) shows that 62 head offices are established in HRM"

What's that all about?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuz

But the sierra report says, "Canadian business pattern data from Statistics Canada (2009) shows that 62 head offices are established in HRM"

What's that all about?

I am sure that there are head offices in the HRM, some of them are quite large such as IMP, Emera, Highliner HQ is close to Halifax in Lunenburg, Sobeys is in Stellarton ... There are quite a few, although I can't think of them right now. These are all sources of sponsorship and might very well want to have naming rights to the stadium.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuz

But the sierra report says, "Canadian business pattern data from Statistics Canada (2009) shows that 62 head offices are established in HRM"

What's that all about?

Interesting....62 National Head Offices in Halifax. What are they?

From Stats Ca.

Growth in head offices was strongest in the manufacturing, real estate and information industries. The wholesale trade, mining, oil and gas extraction, and construction industries saw the number of head offices decline about 8% during this period. Overall, there were just under 4,000 head offices in Canada in 2002.

Of Canada's 170,000 head office employees in 2002, over two-thirds worked in Ontario and Quebec. Montréal lost head office employees from 1999 to 2002, whereas Toronto solidified its position as Canada's leading head office centre, adding nearly 5,000 white-collar workers. During this period, the total number of head office employees in Canada grew 1% annually.

In the West, a dramatic shift has occurred. In 1999, British Columbia had the most head office workers in the region, with about 20,000. By 2002, this figure dropped to 16,500, whereas Alberta's count climbed to over 21,000, and Calgary supplanted Vancouver as Western Canada's leading head office centre.

[Empire]

I wonder if Peter MacKay might play a bit of hardball and say we are absolutely willing to support a stadium in HRM to the tune of $$$$ and we will deliver on that sum when Dexter ponies up the same amount.

[fenwick16]

One thing that popped into my head is that one or two Councillors who opposed the phase 2 study, and were vocal in their opposition, might have NDP affiliations and decided to contact Premier Dexter with their case against a stadium.

I am sure that Premier Dexter is hearing from various people, some in support of a stadium, but also some who, like Bruce DeVenne, will try to convince him that the majority do not want a stadium. Bruce DeVenne certainly created a perception of overwhelming opposition to the Commonwealth Games bid. I think that perception of major opposition has lingered with many politicians even though a couple of different polls show that 2 out of 3 people are in favour of a stadium.

It would be a good idea for those in favour of a stadium to start emailing Premier Dexter, and their local MLA's (we can be sure that those against are sending email after email ...).

If people really want a stadium built then it will be necessary to convince MLAs that it is a favorable cause. Also if you know others in favour then send the list of MLA email addresses to them and ask them to also contact them. I think that the emails should be written in friendly terms.

I got this email list from here - http://nslegislature.ca/index.php/people/addresses/
If you want to know which are NDPers then you can check here for their affiliation - http://nslegislature.ca/index.php/people/members/

Here is Premier Dexter's email - premier@gov.ns.ca ;and there is also this email - Darrell Dexter E-mail: ddexter.mla@gmail.com PS: I plan to send him a respectful email saying why I think a stadium would be beneficial to the Halifax area.

Here is a list of MLA's and their email addresses: PS: I think it would be best to only contact one's own MLA since they will be more inclined to listen to and respond to their own constituents.

Jamie Baillie E-mail: jamiebaillie@bellaliant.com
Keith Bain E-mail: keithbainmla@ns.sympatico.ca
Sterling Belliveau E-mail: mlashelburne@eastlink.ca
Pam Birdsall E-mail: pambirdsallmla@bellaliant.com
Jim Boudreau E-mail: jimboudreaumla@bellaliant.com
Gary Burrill E-mail: garyburrill@ns.sympatico.ca
Karen Casey E-mail: karencasey@ns.aliantzinc.ca
Zach Churchill E-mail: churchzj@gov.ns.ca
Keith Colwell E-mail: colwelkw@gov.ns.ca
Vicki Conrad E-mail: vconrad@ns.aliantzinc.ca
Frank Corbett E-mail: frankmla@ns.sympatico.ca
Christopher A d’Entremont E-mail: info@chrisdentremont.com
Howard Epstein E-mail: hepstein@ns.aliantzinc.ca
Bill Estabrooks E-mail: billestabrooks@navnet.net
Wayne J Gaudet E-mail: waynej@ns.aliantzinc.ca
Leo Glavine E-mail: leoglavinemla@eastlink.ca
Gordie Gosse E-mail: gordiegosse@ns.aliantzinc.ca
Ramona Jennex E-mail: ramonajennexmla@bellaliant.com
Becky Kent Email: kentbj@gov.ns.ca
Ross Landry E-mail: pictoucentremla@rosslandry.ca
Manning MacDonald E-mail: manningm@ns.sympatico.ca
Maureen MacDonald E-mail: mmacdonald@navnet.net
John MacDonell Email: john.macdonell@ns.sympatico.ca
Clarrie MacKinnon E-mail: clarriemla@ns.aliantzinc.ca
Geoff MacLellan E-mail: mla@geoffmaclellan.ca
Alfie MacLeod E-mail: alfiemacleodmla@ns.aliantzinc.ca
Allan MacMaster E-mail: mlamacmaster@bellaliant.com
Stephen McNeil E-mail: stephenmcneil@ns.aliantzinc.ca
Marilyn More E-mail: marilynmoremla@ns.aliantzinc.ca
Jim Morton E-mail: jimmorton@kingsnorthmla.ca
Eddie Orrell E-mail: eddieorrell@bellaliant.com
Percy Paris E-mail: percy@percyparis.ca
Charlie Parker E-mail:charlieparkermla@ns.aliantzinc.ca
Denise Peterson-Rafuse E-mail: denisepetersmla@bellaliant.com
Chuck Porter E-mail: chuck@chuckporter.ca
Sidney Prest E-mail: sidprest.mla@ns.aliantzinc.ca
Leonard Preyra E-mail: preyra@eastlink.ca
Gary Ramey E-mail: gary.ramey.mla@eastlink.ca
Michèle Raymond E-mail: mhraymondmla@eastlink.ca
Kelly Regan E-mail: kelly@kellyregan.ca
Michel P Samson E-mail: michelsamson@ns.sympatico.ca
Brian Skabar E-mail: office@brianskabarmla.ca
Maurice G Smith E-mail: mauricesmithmla@bellaliant.com
Graham Steele E-mail: graham@grahamsteele.ca
Harold (Junior) Theriault E-mail: junior@ns.aliantzinc.ca
Diana Whalen E-mail: whalendc@gov.ns.ca
Mat Whynott E-mail: mat.mla@ns.sympatico.ca
David Wilson E-mail: dave@davidawilsonmla.ca
Andrew Younger E-mail: info@andrewyounger.ca
Lenore Zann E-mail: lenorezannmla@bellaliant.com
Trevor Zinck E-mail: tzinck@ns.aliantzinc.ca

[wespidel]

I sent all the city councillors but 5 an email prior to their vote on Tuesday and I got 6 positive replys back all thanking me and all were in agreement with my points and all complimented me on my efforts. I ended my email after I covered all the important points, by saying in a nice way that all the councillors in Hamilton that voted against their CFL model stadium were all replaced. I believe that statement alone make the councillors think twice about voting it down especially where their jobs could be on the line, mainly because of the overwhelming support from the public, wanting a stadium built in Halifax. My email actually ended up being sent to the office clerks, steering committee and all councillors I was told by a councillor you sent me a second reply back.
I think Fenwick what you did here is also very crucial and smart. Dexter needs to be called out on his public statement not to support the stadium at this time, when it`s the most crucial time! We all need to work together to get our message out!


Just one point I wanted to make on my efforts to pitch for a bigger and better stadium. I was just talking to my son living in Calgary who has Stampeder season tickets and he told me he saw on twitter that Dexter doesn`t want to support the stadium but he`s supporting all other projects. It`s interesting here that people like my son in his early twenties who have lefted Halifax, but are still following to see what happens with the stadium project, whether it will be built or not and what size and what type of stadium it will be and look like, are still staying in tune with the developments and watching to see if Halifax is going to grow up as a city and be a player!

What`s more important here is our youth, who are our future and who will be important to the growth of our economy, are interested in seeing if Halifax has some real vision and wants to put themselves on a National and Global level or not! My son made a comment about the stadium steering committee only recommending the city to build only a small 10 thousand permanent seat stadium and it a chord with me!

He said what`s the point, Dad!

[fenwick16]

I just went back and looked at some of the horrible SketchUp stadium renderings that I have posted on this forum (I have deleted several). I have to admit, HRM has some fantastic people as Councillors who have tolerated some horrible stadium SkechUp drawings that I have sent to a few of them (they must have a good sense of humour).

Hopefully, Nova Scotia MLAs will reconsider what an economically priced stadium can do for Halifax in attracting national and international events.

Something like the Pizza Hut Park stadium in Frisco, Texas would be a great start: (source: Bing Maps - Birds Eye View)


The stadium structure - stands, seats and washrooms/concessions were only $35 million dollars (source: phase 1 Sierra Stadium report) and seats 21,000.

[fenwick16]

There was some depressing information regarding the stadium in the allnovascotia.com. According to allnovascotia.com, Reg. Rankin, who strongly opposed the stage 2 study on August 9th, is now looking for support from HRM Councillors to can (cancel) the phase 2 study in next week's meeting (source: "No Province, No Stadium: Rankin" by Amy Pugsley).

Just when people on this forum were getting excited, Reg. Rankin steps forward ...

Here is Reg Rankin's email address if anyone would like to provide their opinion - Email: rankinr@halifax.ca . I hope that in the 2012 election this Councillor will not be re-elected.



There were three good stories in the Chronicle Herald today regarding the stadium.

The following editorial is one that I liked in particular and states the Halifax situation very well:
(source: http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/1257939.html )

Doers and Dreamers? Nay, we are Booers and Hissers

By LAURENT LE PIERRÈS
Fri, Aug 12, 2011 - 4:54 AM

Welcome to Nega Scotia, Canada’s Ocean Nay-ground. Nay to a new convention centre. Nay to a new stadium.

There are plenty of places where the vast majority of folks will say "yay!" to progress, but this province isn’t one of them.

On paper, we are an exciting destination. After all, Nova Scotia does put out its annual Doers and Dreamers travel guide for tourists. But the truth is we have a strong Booers and Hissers contingent here.

Why do I say this? Because nothing is better at galvanizing our "Nega Scotia attitude" than an ambitious mega-project. If one of those is in the offing, well then the public mood tacks towards cynicism, not enthusiasm.

(source: http://thechronicleherald.ca/Metro/1257831.html )

Premier prompts stadium nervousness
Some councillors wary after Dexter says province can’t put up cash
By DAVENE JEFFREY Staff Reporter
Fri, Aug 12 - 4:54 AM


A lack of support from the province is threatening the future of a proposed stadium for Halifax, several regional councillors say.

On Wednesday, Premier Darrell Dexter said his government has no money at the moment to contribute to the project.

"To me, this is one strike against moving forward on the stadium," Coun. Steve Streatch (Eastern Shore-Musquodoboit Valley) said Thursday.

"I know there are a lot who support (the stadium), but I’m just having a bad feeling.

(source: http://thechronicleherald.ca/Sports/1257822.html )

Stadium needs push from its supporters

By CHRIS COCHRANE Sports Columnist
Fri, Aug 12 - 4:54 AM


I have heard all the reasons why Halifax can’t join Canada’s more forward-thinking cities, such as the mighty metropolis of Moncton, and build a stadium to host local, national and international events.

And, believe me, those against building a Halifax stadium are enthusiastic in their criticism.

The most often heard reason is cost. Understandably, that is the big one, given that a stadium is estimated to cost somewhere in the range of $60 million.

But the knee-jerk reaction of how much it will cost doesn’t take into account the many benefits it will bring.

How about all the national and international exposure from televised sports competitions? It is hard to put a price on such free media coverage for our region.

Here is another from Halifax News Net - Rick's Rants (source: http://www.halifaxnewsnet.ca/Blog-Ar...ugust-12th2011 )

Rick's Rants Friday August 12th/2011

Nervous nellies looking for re-vote!! and Gas prices plunge!

Premier Darrell Dexter this week poured cold water on Halifax's hopes of getting a muti-purpose sports stadium when he told reporters the province right now just doesn't have the money to invest in the project. Fair enough. But that shouldn't stop city council from going ahead with a phase two study into the proposed stadium that will look at matters like cost and cost-sharing. Council voted 16-5 Tuesday to spend the $275,000 on the study. Several councillors however are now calling for another vote in light of the premier's comments. If a major partner like the province isn't on board says Councillor Reg Rankin, why go any further? Because councillor, the premier didn't completely rule out provincial involvement, telling reporters it " may be at sometime in the future we may be be able to re-assess that." So let's move on with the study and find out if this stadium is doable, with or without the province's help. If it's not financially feasible, if there's no business case, fine. But let's find out.

[wespidel]

Rankin. I agree got to go and thanks for calling him out.

Dexter is next and I`m starting the process!


What do you think of the Montreal Alouette stadium as an affordable model for Halifax to build?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Rankin. I agree got to go and thanks for calling him out.

Dexter is next and I`m starting the process!


What do you think of the Montreal Alouette stadium as an affordable model for Halifax to build?

I like the basic concept although I would like to see a partial roof.

I have a feeling that HRM won't be able to build an entire stadium all at once. But if they could start in 2012 on a stadium similar to the Pizza Hut Park that I posted above, then in a couple years maybe a 2nd tier and partial roof could be added.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

One thing that popped into my head is that one or two Councillors who opposed the phase 2 study, and were vocal in their opposition, might have NDP affiliations and decided to contact Premier Dexter with their case against a stadium.

No doubt. Watts and Barkhouse are NDP puppets and parrot the type of anti-development comments that Bousquet of the Coast tends to spew. I doubt there was even any actual direct communication. Comrade Dexter would have heard they were against it, hence he would be too.

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I just went back and looked at some of the horrible SketchUp stadium renderings that I have posted on this forum (I have deleted several). I have to admit, HRM has some fantastic people as Councillors who have tolerated some horrible stadium SkechUp drawings that I have sent to a few of them (they must have a good sense of humour).

Hopefully, Nova Scotia MLAs will reconsider what an economically priced stadium can do for Halifax in attracting national and international events.

Something like the Pizza Hut Park stadium in Frisco, Texas would be a great start: (source: Bing Maps - Birds Eye View)


The stadium structure - stands, seats and washrooms/concessions were only $35 million dollars (source: phase 1 Sierra Stadium report) and seats 21,000.

Fenwick
I think this type of projection is excellent and this is what the public needs to know.....a reasonable cost stadium still can be done. I have a soft spot for an open end "U" shape stadium. What you have shown here is very usable, expandable and shows lots of crush space and concession areas. Its not pretty but hey I like it!
HRM Staff have a bad habit unlike private enterprise of doing the overboard type of design and escalating the costs.
My thinking right now is that HRM should be very firm on their stance! Much like someone else posted about calling out the NDP Govt....HRM should say we are ready to go ....$60 million budget ....we will design and build to that budget.....where is your share Darrell????
My feeling is the Feds will follow up that with either a clean Shannon site and some cash or state they will be there for a 1/3.

Right now we need council to get on with it....the hold back is lack of a funding picture! HRM has been stuck holding thebag far too many times without the Province sharing in the cost. HRM does not get near their fair share of tax revenues a Stadium would generate....

[ATL Stadium]

I think the councilors that have voted against and some that have voted for are all in turmoil. There are a few things...

1) They want funding partners NOW! The Stadium should be a GO! and see who lines up as partners....if nobody jumps on board then big trouble!

2) Some have expressed a Stadium as a "Want" type of thing not a need and that a Stadium would be way down on the list. There are other councilors feeling the same way.

WE have work to do on changing that mind set.