City Murder Rates - Page 164

LA21st · #**3261** Posted **Nov 6, 2021, 9:51 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by homebucket

Same with SF. It's nowhere near the bombed out zombie/poop infested wasteland that outsiders think it is. Sure, there are some grittier areas where you might encounter open drug use, but I'm not sure how that is different from any other major US city? Anyone that's actually visited or lives in SF can see that it's actually remarkably pleasant.

All those narratives are so stupid.

I've seen comments on social media. there's homeless in Beverly Hills. I ask where these tents are and then it's just silence. These people just make shit up because they're bored.

LA21st · #**3262** Posted **Nov 6, 2021, 9:54 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed

The only places in the U.S. I can think of that are even remotely "soft on crime", perception or otherwise, are places like San Francisco or Portland, that have some of the lowest violent crime rates in the country. The rhetoric is severely out of line with reality, and is mostly driven by a partisan agenda. San Francisco has a murder rate that is half the rate in Dallas, and Portland's rate is a fourth of Dallas's, but you'd never know that from following the media rhetoric.

Even Nashville has a worse murder rate than LA and SF. The right wing defense is "the murders are in pockets". As if that's not true for SF and LA.
Crazy.

davee930 · #**3263** Posted **Nov 7, 2021, 4:14 AM**

You guys had it lucky.

I grew up on Tecumseh Road. Hellish road it was.

It definitely took after its name.

iheartthed · #**3264** Posted **Nov 8, 2021, 9:38 PM**

Relevant:

Quote:

Adding More Police to Fight Crime? The Evidence Is Mixed.
Other anti-crime measures might be more effective, experts say, and avoid the downsides of policing.

...

For decades, scholars have acknowledged that local crime rates cannot be predicted by officer strength and police budgets. Sometimes a boost for policing is followed by a drop in crime; sometimes it isn’t.

History shows that homicides fell after more officers were hired 54 percent of the time, according to Aaron Chalfin, a criminologist at the University of Pennsylvania who has studied ways of driving down crime.

“Crime goes up and down for a million reasons that are completely independent of the police,” Dr. Chalfin said. “But we know, on average, if you look across many cities for many years, there is an effect.”

While crime rates and officers per capita vary widely from city to city, scholars have begun to try to get an overall picture by using data on federal policing grants that were established in 1994. In a forthcoming paper, Dr. Chalfin and his co-authors found that one additional officer reduced between .06 and 0.1 homicides per year — in other words, it takes 10 to 17 new officers to save a life.

The gains were not uniform. Overall, more Black lives were saved than white lives when police officers were added, but in Southern cities with larger Black populations the homicide rate did not budge, according to an early draft of the paper. And more officers made arrests for low-level offenses like alcohol-related infractions, which are not typically seen as contributing to public safety. More police officers may also mean that cities incur the cost of more police violence, more legal settlements and more protests.

With more national focus on those drawbacks, not all voters are enthusiastic about beefing up police forces, even in cities with sharply increasing homicide numbers.Last week, residents of Austin, Texas, rejected by a wide margin a ballot measure that would have required the city to hire hundreds more officers.

Opponents pointed out that while Austin had a record high number of homicides, cities with far more police officers per capita, including Atlanta, Chicago and Milwaukee, had experienced greater increases in their homicide rates, and cities with fewer officers per capita, including Raleigh, N.C., and El Paso, had seen homicides decline.

“If I read this margin of victory correctly, I think people understand that there is going to be crime, but are more willing to solve the question of why these things are happening as opposed to just responding to them when they do,” said Chas Moore, executive director of the Austin Justice Coalition, which opposed the measure.

...

Even crime statistics themselves have limitations — they are collected by the police, and the police decide what counts as a crime, said Tamara K. Nopper, a sociologist at Rhode Island College and the editor of “We Do This ’Til We Free Us,” a book on abolitionist organizing by Mariame Kaba.

The numbers that get the most attention are the so-called index crimes — murder, rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, larceny, car theft and arson. They represent a narrow definition of public safety, and advocates of shrinking or abolishing the police have taken to pointing out that they do not include civil rights violations, violence perpetrated by the police and correction officers, or even failures by those in uniform to take precautions against spreading the coronavirus.

“In the end, crime data is always a tool of police propaganda,” Dr. Nopper said. “If crime is low, the police are doing their jobs. If crime is high, we need to give more money to the police. The police always win.”

Perhaps because crime rates are so hard to explain, they are easy to exploit. The spike in gun violence has not only prompted calls to expand police departments, it has given the police an opening to blame crime on policies they do not like, often with little evidence.

Dermot F. Shea, the New York City police commissioner, repeatedly used his bully pulpit to pin the city’s increase in shootings on bail reform, which allows people to avoid being locked up before they have been convicted. But when he was confronted with data to the contrary at a hearing in Albany last month, he was forced to backpedal.

Perhaps the biggest drawback of the available evidence on policing is that it does not compare the benefit of more officers on the street with the benefit of expanding other measures that have been shown to reduce crime: drug treatment, mental health crisis responders, or summer jobs for young people.

In a recent survey of criminal justice experts, about two-thirds agreed that increasing police budgets would improve public safety. But many more of them — 85 percent — said that increasing spending on housing, health and education would do so.

Nor do they measure the comparative effect of asking the police to absent themselves entirely, as in a five-day experiment in a Brooklyn neighborhood last year that reportedly saw 911 calls drop nearly to zero.

In New York City, a randomized trial of street lighting reduced outdoor, nighttime index crimes by 36 percent. In Philadelphia, cleaning up vacant lots corresponded to a 29 percent reduction in gun violence. A number of studies have documented the effectiveness of violence interruption programs run by “credible messengers” who are respected in their communities.

In the longer term, Medicaid expansion, access to drug treatment and mental health care, and even a guaranteed basic income have also been found to reduce crime — perhaps with fewer downsides than policing.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/us/police-crime.html

ilcapo · #**3265** Posted **Nov 9, 2021, 12:42 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

.?

Do you know if the Somali Communities in for example Edmonton or Toronto suffers from gang activity more than other diasporas?

A big part of the Stockholm murders are linked with gangs in the Somali Diaspora. Im interested in knowing if this is the case in Canadian cities as well?

I know theres a big somali community in Minnesota aswell but i havent seen any information that points towards the same problematic issues in these comunities.

Acajack · #**3266** Posted **Nov 9, 2021, 1:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilcapo

Do you know if the Somali Communities in for example Edmonton or Toronto suffers from gang activity more than other diasporas?

A big part of the Stockholm murders are linked with gangs in the Somali Diaspora. Im interested in knowing if this is the case in Canadian cities as well?

I know theres a big somali community in Minnesota aswell but i havent seen any information that points towards the same problematic issues in these comunities.

Yes, that appears to unfortunately be the case in Edmonton. I know for sure that there are many troubled young people of Somali origin in my neighbouring city of Ottawa, and they sadly figure prominently in stories about murders: both as victims and perpetrators. In Ottawa most are the children of people who came to Canada as refugees in the 1990s.

You also have the same thing going on with some Somali origin kids (but with a lesser share) in Toronto. Though there there are other groups even more disproportionately involved in violent crime, such as young men of Caribbean origins. This community has been in the city for a long time - generally since the 1960s. But the crime issue, which was actually relatively quiet for the first 30-40 years of the Caribbean presence in the city, has gotten a lot worse in the past couple of decades.

In Montreal violent crime is more spread out among the various demographics of the city, and can go in spurts. Sometimes the victims and perps are mostly of Italian origin, then it seems there are lots of Québécois French Canadians, then there are a lot of Caribbean origin kids (mostly Haitian) involved. It varies a lot.

Vancouver has of late seen a surge in murders as well. There the people involved seem to be mostly of South Asian origins.

I know about the large community in Minnesota. Not an expert but I've never heard of them being involved in crime disproportionately. The community's main face is politician Ilhan Omar.

BG918 · #**3267** Posted **Nov 10, 2021, 6:14 AM**

Kansas City MO just reached 133 murders. The record is 166 set in 2020.

KevinFromTexas · #**3268** Posted **Nov 11, 2021, 1:15 AM**

Causes metrowide
Shooting - 79
Stabbing - 7
Strangled - 0
Suffocation - 0
Throwing (of child) - 0
Beating - 0
Vehicular homicide - 0
Blunt force trauma - 2
Sharp force trauma - 0
Unlisted cause - 8
Domestic terrorism - 0

Austin totals
Downtown - 6
Central Austin - 3
East Austin - 13
North Austin - 17
Northeast Austin - 8
Northwest Austin - 7
South Austin - 9
Southeast Austin - 11
Southwest Austin - 1
West Austin - 1

Victims
Male - 70
Female - 17
Unlisted - 9

| Jan 7 | Feb 10 | Mar 11 | Apr 8 | May 9 | Jun 9 | Jul 7 | Aug 4 | Sep 15 | Oct 10 | Nov 7 | Dec 0 |

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| Mon 19 | Tue 11 | Wed 14 | Thur 13 | Fri 7 | Sat 14 | Sun 18 |

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Murder cases

Code:

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/suspect-charged-with-capital-murder-after-man-was-found-dead-in-round-rock/?utm_campaign=alert_bar&utm_source=side_bullets - Round Rock shooting - 1/9

1 dead - https://cbsaustin.com/news/local/one-person-dead-after-shooting-in-northeast-austin - Austin shooting - 1/11

1 dead - http://www.austintexas.gov/news/homicide-5000-brighton-road - Austin shooting - 1/18

1 dead - https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2021/01/22/hays-county-sheriffs-office-investigating-apparent-shooting/6681601002/ - Buda shooting - 1/21

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/man-killed-after-shootout-between-two-groups-at-north-austin-complex-police-say/ - Austin shooting - 1/23

2 dead - http://www.austintexas.gov/news/homicide-1912-w-35th-street - Austin shooting - 1/26

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/one-person-dead-after-shooting-in-north-austin/?fbclid=IwAR2QlQlGL89M9QlIMXNDSAU9spvMEhu31Cpqo8Jsl-tQaPXWOlrPLuNNY4o - Austin shooting - 1/29

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/police-investigating-suspicious-death-in-east-austin-2/ - Austin shooting - 2/2

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/police-investigating-suspicious-death-in-southeast-austin-3/ - Austin obvious trauma - 2/3

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/suspicious-death-being-investigated-in-central-austin/ - Austin shooting - 2/6

2 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/elderly-couple-found-dead-in-suspected-murder-suicide-at-cedar-park-home/?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=facebook.com&fbclid=IwAR2d0OJqQ9Lwib8K-06sGBipshijYzvjNIcP2vCkMkef1W-GjrUamnIZ9ws - Cedar Park murder/suicide - 2/9

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/19-year-old-man-stabbed-and-killed-northeast-austin-fight-police-say/ - Austin stabbing - 2/16

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/man-faces-murder-charge-after-wife-found-dead-at-south-austin-hotel-room/ - Austin unlisted cause - 2/16

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/toddler-dies-during-february-winter-storm-austin-police-investigating-as-homicide/ - Austin unlisted cause - 2/18

2 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/travis-county/travis-county-deputies-investigate-possible-murder-suicide-involving-two-male-relatives/ - Pflugervile shooting - 2/19

1 dead - https://www.statesman.com/story/news/crime/2021/06/25/hutto-teacher-julie-hall-disappearance-husband-travis-hall-charged-with-murder/5352450001/ - Hutto blunt force trauma - 2/19 

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/one-man-dead-after-shooting-at-north-austin-apartment-complex/ - Austin shooting - 2/28

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/police-investigating-deadly-shooting-in-downtown-austin-early-sunday-morning/ - Austin shooting - 3/14

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/man-arrested-on-murder-charge-after-san-marcos-woman-found-dead-on-backyard-patio/ - San Marcos body found - 3/15

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/homicide-investigation-underway-after-death-thursday-morning-in-north-austin/ - Austin shooting - 3/18

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/one-person-dies-in-southeast-austin-shooting/ - Austin shooting - 3/21

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/police-reporting-to-scene-of-shooting-incident-in-northwest-austin-residents-should-avoid-the-area/ - Austin shooting - 3/22

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/apd-investigating-suspicious-death-in-south-austin-neighborhood/ - Austin shooting - 3/25

1 dead - http://www.austintexas.gov/news/homicide-6600-block-bradley-dr - Austin shooting - 3/27

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/man-taken-to-a-hospital-with-life-threatening-injuries-after-shooting-at-east-austin-home/ - Austin shooting - 3/28

1 dead - http://www.austintexas.gov/news/homicide-11100-block-n-ih-35-svrd - Austin shooting - 3/28 

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/apd-investigating-homicide-in-nw-austin/ - Austin shooting - 3/31

1 dead - https://www.kvue.com/article/news/crime/leander-texas-police-knife-suspect/269-2018951c-a1c4-4d00-b9b4-c543b4ff4e3a - Leander stabbing - 3/31

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/apd-investigating-deadly-shooting-in-se-austin/ - Austin shooting - 4/6

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/austin-police-investigating-homicide-in-north-austin/ - Austin shooting - 4/13

3 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/active-shooter-reported-at-arboretum-in-northwest-austin-3-reportedly-injured/ - Austin shooting  - 4/18

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/poli...stin-homicide/ - Austin shooting - 4/25

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...-south-austin/ - Austin shooting - 4/26

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/poli...in-apartments/ - Austin shooting - 4/29

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/man-...dziJCzKgAY6OeM - Austin shooting - 5/2

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/16-y...n-bell-county/ - Austin shooting - 5/5

1 dead - https://www.kvue.com/article/news/cr...a-a8fd7e9920c3 - Lockhart shooting - 5/7

2 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/man-...ldwell-county/ - Martindale shooting - 5/10

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...g-for-suspect/ - Austin shooting - 5/15

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/15-y...wntown-austin/ - Austin shooting - 5/20

1 dead - http://www.austintexas.gov/news/homi...us-highway-290 - Austin shooting - 5/23

1 dead - https://www.statesman.com/story/news...ty/5286265001/ - Pflugerville stabbing - 5/31

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/top-stories/tcs...-south-austin/ - Pflugerville shooting - 6/1

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...theast-austin/ - Austin shooting - 6/11

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...mass-shooting/ - Austin shooting - 6/12

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...-north-austin/ - Austin shooting - 6/12

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/man-...n-parking-lot/ - Austin shooting - 6/17

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/1-de...stin-shooting/ - Austin shooting - 6/20

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...n-east-austin/ - Austin shooting - 6/23

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...y-expo-center/ - Austin shooting - 6/24

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...ied-by-police/ - Austin stabbing - 6/27

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/1-de...in-cedar-park/ - Cedar Park shooting - 7/7

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/man-dead-t...thwest-austin/ - Austin shooting - 7/12

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/1-pe...ar-6th-street/ - Austin shooting - 7/17

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/homi...tion-shooting/ - Austin shooting - 7/17

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/ceda...tment-complex/ - Cedar Park stabbing - 7/20

1 dead - http://www.austintexas.gov/news/homi...-frontage-road - Austin stabbing - 7/23

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/will...ning-homicide/ - Round Rock shooting - 7/26

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/pers...unday-morning/ - Austin shooting - 8/1

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...austin-murder/ - Austin shooting - 8/2

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/33-y...tin-apartment/ - Austin shooting - 8/11

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/man-...-south-austin/ - Austin shooting - 8/27

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...rly-wednesday/ - Austin shooting - 9/1

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...rly-wednesday/ - Austin shooting - 9/1

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/82-y...shot-to-death/ - Tilmon shooting - 9/1

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...n-east-austin/ - Austin shooting - 9/3

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/homi...-north-austin/ - Austin shooting - 9/4

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...orth-austin-2/ - Austin shooting - 9/9

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/poli...unday-morning/ - Austin shooting - 9/12

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/poli...unday-morning/ - Austin stabbing - 9/12

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/1-person-w...-north-austin/ - Austin body found with trauma - 9/14

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/poli...n-east-austin/ - Austin shooting - 9/16

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/22-y...-in-louisiana/ - Bastrop County beating - 9/18

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...stin-shooting/ - Austin shooting - 9/20

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/will...g-as-homicide/ - Round Rock shooting - 9/25

1 dead - https://www.kvue.com/article/news/cr...4-3d98ed2d5e24 - Austin shooting - 9/27

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/16-y...omplex-monday/ - Austin shooting - 9/27

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/poli...orth-austin-2/ - Austin shooting - 10/3

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...theast-austin/ - Austin shooting - 10/6

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/cald...rtindale-home/ - Martindale shooting - 10/11 

2 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...ting-homicide/ - Austin shooting - 10/19

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/trav...travis-county/ - Travis County shooting - 10/21

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/poli...t-austin-home/ - Austin shooting - 10/23

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...thwest-austin/  - Austin shooting - 10/27

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...-than-8-hours/ - Austin shooting - 10/27

1 dead - https://www.fox7austin.com/news/apd-...t-parking-spot - Austin shooting - 10/31

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/apd-search...y-house-theft/ - Austin shooting - 11/1

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...thwest-austin/ - Austin shooting - 11/4

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...ied-by-police/ - Austin shooting - 11/4

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...-north-austin/ - Austin unlisted cause - 11/4

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/body...investigation/ - Taylor body found - 11/5

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/trav...in-police-say/ - Elgin shooting - 11/6

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...er-police-say/ - Austin unlisted cause - 11/8

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...g-was-related/ - Austin shooting - 11/8

-

Pending cases

Code:

1 dead - https://cbsaustin.com/news/local/apd-investigating-deceased-person-in-hotel-room-in-north-central-austin - 2/14 

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/travis-county/18-year-old-found-dead-on-recycling-center-conveyor-belt-in-travis-county/ - 3/24

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/28-year-old-dies-morning-after-fight-at-east-austin-strip-club-suspect-arrested/ - Austin beating - 4/7

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/adult-pronounced-dead-after-being-found-in-ravine-by-bystanders-off-us-290/ - Austin body found - 5/20

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/man-dies-after-reportedly-being-run-over-by-car-in-north-austin-parking-lot/ - Austin vehicular homicide - 6/25

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/suspicious-death-in-northwest-austin-under-investigation/ - Austin body found - 8/11

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/apd-officer-fires-weapon-during-gun-battle-in-downtown-austin-teen-in-critical-condition-after-shootout/ - Austin shooting - 10/9

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/hays...tJjOPmPcJyff54 - Wimberley body found  - 10/10

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/hays...cvs-pharmacy/- Kyle body found - 10/13

1 dead - https://www.fox7austin.com/news/inve...nut-creek-park - Austin body found - 11/10

1 dead - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...thwest-austin/ - Austin unlisted cause - 11/12

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Previous years

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Previous years per month

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Austin area population

City: 961,855 2020 Census - source: US Census Bureau
Travis County: 1,290,188 2020 Census - source: US Census Bureau
Metro: 2,283,371 2020 Census - source: US Census Bureau

Area - City: 297 square miles (2010) - US Census Bureau
Area - Metro: 4,285 square miles - Wikipedia
Area - Travis County: 1,023 square miles - Wikipedia

Qubert · #**3269** Posted **Nov 11, 2021, 1:35 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Relevant:

The problem with the abolitionist argument is we truly do not know what would happen in a world without a criminal justice system. If someone could just simply push down an elderly neighbor, take their wallet and know for a fact that they'd never face any negitive repercussions for it how long would it take before people begin seeing that as a reasonable option. People take for granted the hard wired sociological effect of policing: The idea one will face negitive outcomes from their actions. Once that's removed all that's left is personal ethics, and those can be highly fudgable.

Even in a commune-like utopia where everyone has the exact same amount of "stuff" and everything they need why wouldn't someone say "I want 2 of X" and take stuff from next door?

Sadly, I don't forsee a world where the complete removal of punative action being one that remains peaceful for very long.

iheartthed · #**3270** Posted **Nov 11, 2021, 3:38 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qubert

The problem with the abolitionist argument is we truly do not know what would happen in a world without a criminal justice system. If someone could just simply push down an elderly neighbor, take their wallet and know for a fact that they'd never face any negitive repercussions for it how long would it take before people begin seeing that as a reasonable option. People take for granted the hard wired sociological effect of policing: The idea one will face negitive outcomes from their actions. Once that's removed all that's left is personal ethics, and those can be highly fudgable.

Even in a commune-like utopia where everyone has the exact same amount of "stuff" and everything they need why wouldn't someone say "I want 2 of X" and take stuff from next door?

Sadly, I don't forsee a world where the complete removal of punative action being one that remains peaceful for very long.

I don't think anyone is seriously advocating for an anarchist approach to law enforcement. Even the "abolitionist" proposals have called for enforcement officers, but under a dramatically restructured public safety umbrella.

biguc · #**3271** Posted **Nov 11, 2021, 4:31 PM**

Even anarchists don't argue for the complete removal of punitive action--only that people can figure that stuff out ourselves without government to handing it down from above. In practice that means a lot of blabbing about taking responsibility and whatnot, but it's not like you can act with impunity and face zero negative repercussions. Seriously, mess with anarchists and find out. Some of those people will fuck you up.

Anyway, to the point behind iheartthed's link (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/us/police-crime.html), it's obvious that there'd be an equilibrium policing value--a best-bang-for-the-buck quantity of policing. Some police make a huge difference compared to no police; enough resources and you can implement modern police methods and make an even bigger difference. Past that you get diminishing returns until you're just throwing police at problems with negligible effect.

Then you get the negative knock-on effects of too much police: harassed civilians, socially isolated and ineffective police, the emergence of a political police class that looks after itself first.

jtown,man · #**3272** Posted **Nov 12, 2021, 2:16 AM**

750 murders in chicago as of this morning.

Year totals:
2020: 735
2019: 481
2018: 547
2017: 640
2016: 746
2015: 471
2014: 418

Acajack · #**3273** Posted **Nov 12, 2021, 4:05 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by biguc

Even anarchists don't argue for the complete removal of punitive action--only that people can figure that stuff out ourselves without government to handing it down from above. In practice that means a lot of blabbing about taking responsibility and whatnot, but it's not like you can act with impunity and face zero negative repercussions. Seriously, mess with anarchists and find out. Some of those people will fuck you up.

.

I am not saying I know which way things will go, but I wouldn't be too categorical about that statement.

There is a lot "magic wand" policy advocacy going around these days. It hasn't taken control in most places or instances but it's definitely influential.

Just today one of the biggest trends on twitter was a NO ONE IS ILLEGAL petition in reaction to the latest migrant crisis, this one on the Poland-Belarus border.

So just to use this example, there are plenty of people out there who think that the solution to unofficial, unauthorized mass migration is simply to open the doors to anyone who knocks.

The "magic wand" solution to policing is also out there.

LA21st · #**3274** Posted **Nov 12, 2021, 5:03 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtown,man

750 murders in chicago as of this morning.

Year totals:
2020: 735
2019: 481
2018: 547
2017: 640
2016: 746
2015: 471
2014: 418

unreal. Chicago's reddit is full of crime all over the place, even in the good areas. I don't remember anything like it.

biguc · #**3275** Posted **Nov 12, 2021, 10:28 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not saying I know which way things will go, but I wouldn't be too categorical about that statement.

There is a lot "magic wand" policy advocacy going around these days. It hasn't taken control in most places or instances but it's definitely influential.

Just today one of the biggest trends on twitter was a NO ONE IS ILLEGAL petition in reaction to the latest migrant crisis, this one on the Poland-Belarus border.

So just to use this example, there are plenty of people out there who think that the solution to unofficial, unauthorized mass migration is simply to open the doors to anyone who knocks.

The "magic wand" solution to policing is also out there.

Crossing borders illegally is only a bureaucratic crime. Without states restricting freedom of movement, it's hard to argue that there's anything wrong with simply moving from one point to another. The "no person is illegal" arguments, as I understand them, address the circularity of arguments that raise illegality of entry as a reason to maintain illegality of entry.

You could get more abstract and talk about community membership and the knock-on effects of just letting anybody pile into the community but, again, referring to IRL anarchists, they absolutely do control who gets to be members of their communities.

Qubert · #**3276** Posted **Nov 12, 2021, 1:58 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by biguc

Crossing borders illegally is only a bureaucratic crime. Without states restricting freedom of movement, it's hard to argue that there's anything wrong with simply moving from one point to another. The "no person is illegal" arguments, as I understand them, address the circularity of arguments that raise illegality of entry as a reason to maintain illegality of entry.

You could get more abstract and talk about community membership and the knock-on effects of just letting anybody pile into the community but, again, referring to IRL anarchists, they absolutely do control who gets to be members of their communities.

Anarchy as a political and social philosophy in the end always has this contridiction to it: If I can "stop" you from doing something *or* "make" you do something is it really anarchy? What defines a "state", since pre-modern societies most certainly had codes of conduct, hierarchies, and notions of group responsiblity. Even during the hunter-gatherer period tribes most certainly made sure whoever was responsible for pitching the tent, hunting, rearing the children, etc got that done. Period. The groups survival depended on it.

To bring this back to crime issues, I personally do support a pullback in the responsibilites of the police. Things like traffic enforcement (use cameras), dealing with the mentally ill (social workers), school security (more peer-to-peer meditiation), even drugs/prostitution (Legalize) are not law enforcement issues.

Policing needs to shift from a order maintainence focus to a security/crime prevention one. I do want to see as many NYPD officers as possible on the streets and trains since it's that "presence" that truly deters crime. People like to credit broken windows but the truth is it's not the "enforcement" action that deters crime but the fact that police "presence" increased substansially during the 1990s. Police "prescence" has in fact decreased here in NY since Floyd and it does send a signal.

Chisouthside · #**3277** Posted **Nov 12, 2021, 2:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtown,man

750 murders in chicago as of this morning.

Year totals:
2020: 735
2019: 481
2018: 547
2017: 640
2016: 746
2015: 471
2014: 418

Curious as to what is your source for the 750 figure?

iheartthed · #**3278** Posted **Nov 12, 2021, 4:55 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtown,man

750 murders in chicago as of this morning.

Year totals:
2020: 735
2019: 481
2018: 547
2017: 640
2016: 746
2015: 471
2014: 418

My eyebrow is raised at the inconsistency of those numbers, and if I recall correctly, Chicago's numbers are always asterisked by the FBI due to disagreements over how they tally crimes.

Chisouthside · #**3279** Posted **Nov 12, 2021, 4:59 PM**

The numbers seem right except for the 750 mark for this year,

Steely Dan · #**3280** Posted **Nov 12, 2021, 4:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed

My eyebrow is raised at the inconsistency of those numbers.

those 2016 and 2020 spikes were real.

jtown is sourcing those figures from heyjackass.com.

other sources might have slightly different numbers for chicago, but they're all generally in the same wheelhouse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chisouthside

The numbers seem right except for the 750 mark for this year,

nah, it's close enough.

heyjackass.com does count some city homicides that CPD doesn't, like expressway shootings that fall under state police jurisdiction, but overall the figure is accurate enough.

it looks like chicago will unfortunately surpass the 800 mark this year.