Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

Not just the metro population that matters.

I know for the Rush in Saskatoon a lot of ticket holders travel from farther away to attend games. I have family that are season ticket holders and travel two hours each way for every game. Moncton could support a team but it would have to be done right. An owner with deepish pockets and a team embracing the province or region, ie NB team not Moncton team.

Plus, it's only about 10 home games/season which would make it comparable to the CFL. If the team was marketed correctly they could be successful.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

Not just the metro population that matters.

I know for the Rush in Saskatoon a lot of ticket holders travel from farther away to attend games. I have family that are season ticket holders and travel two hours each way for every game. Moncton could support a team but it would have to be done right. An owner with deepish pockets and a team embracing the province or region, ie NB team not Moncton team.

Nothing makes q12's blood boil faster than a discussion about whether Moncton or Halifax has a larger "catchment" population, so I'm not going to go there...........

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

NLL is never going to go to Moncton, so this conversation is a moot point. The league's expansion plans are clearly focused on larger markets, and even Saskatoon and Halifax are a magnitude larger than Moncton.

That does seem to be the commissioners main goal...

"NLL commissioner Nick Sakiewicz said expansion conversations have been held with 36 cities or ownership groups, adding “there’s a high degree of interest".The most serious talks have been with NHL and NBA teams."
https://www.uslaxmagazine.com/pro/nl...-grain-of-salt

"WE WANT 18-20 TEAMS QUICKLY. ULTIMATELY, OVER THE NEXT DECADE, I BELIEVE 30 TEAMS OR MAYBE MORE" NLL COMMISSIONER NICK SAKIEWICZ Sept 2017

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I agree that Moncton isn’t getting an NLL team, but the Moncton CMA has about 155,000 people, so Saskatoon & Halifax are only 2.5-3x larger than Moncton, not “an order of magnitude”

Never say never, Saskatoon was on potential expansion list only when Edmonton team became available. The Saskatchewan success blueprint paved the way for a lot more interest in existing teams to uproot and move to new Canadian markets. Though if the Halifax team remains near bottom of attendance for the league, & even though it would be below average league attendance from the start, the Moncton arena could at least be a temporary home for a relocated team.

NLL expansion teams on the other hand seem to be mostly in The States, with Dallas currently believed to be at top of the list.
https://prolacrossetalk.com/nll-unve...ure-expansion/

Others include, Chicago, Minnesota, Detroit, Columbus, St. Louis, Nashville, Kansas City, Arkansas, Oklahoma City, Tulsa.
https://oneilllacrosse.com/blogs/pos...ground-in-west

In the last few years American cities mentioned include Pittsburgh, New Hampshire, Bay Area, Cleveland, Milwaukee, DC, Utah, New Jersey, Las Vegas, Tampa Bay, Seattle, Utah, plus even a few Canadian cities with NHL sized arenas.
https://inlacrossewetrust.com/what-t...kets-could-be/

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

Never say never, Saskatoon was on potential expansion list only when Edmonton team became available. The Saskatchewan success blueprint paved the way for a lot more interest in existing teams to uproot and move to new Canadian markets. Though if the Halifax team remains near bottom of attendance for the league, & even though it would be below average league attendance from the start, the Moncton arena could at least be a temporary home for a relocated team.

I imagine Edmonton and Winnipeg would be the top two Canadian cities for the NLL. The Oilers would probably love a team to fill up more dates at Rogers Place, plus there's natural rivalries with the other Western Canadian teams.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

I imagine Edmonton and Winnipeg would be the top two Canadian cities for the NLL. The Oilers would probably love a team to fill up more dates at Rogers Place, plus there's natural rivalries with the other Western Canadian teams.

Edmonton did have a team and they ended up moving to Saskatoon due to lack of fan support. Have the Oilers ownership shown any interest in owning a team? Or is the league not ready to give Edmonton another shot at a team?

[Nathan2280]

I would like to see baseball league resurface in Canada across the whole country. Ferguson Jenkins had one pop up in early 00s but died after one season. At least someone should start building the ball parks so something could move forward

[TimB09]

Originally Posted by Nathan2280

I would like to see baseball league resurface in Canada across the whole country. Ferguson Jenkins had one pop up in early 00s but died after one season. At least someone should start building the ball parks so something could move forward

There's some nice ballparks that could accommodate this in Canada for sure. REMAX/Telus Field in Edmonton would be perfect for this, even though right now the Edmonton Prospects play out of the park.

I don't see this happening though, unfortunately.

[esquire]

I don't see there being much grassroots demand for the NLL in Winnipeg but I suppose that's what marketing departments are for.

I would guess that the most realistic path for Winnipeg to get a NLL team would be if the Manitoba Moose AHL team moved somewhere else, freeing up a bunch of arena dates and TNSE resources to reallocate to a NLL team instead.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by esquire

I don't see there being much grassroots demand for the NLL in Winnipeg but I suppose that's what marketing departments are for.

I would guess that the most realistic path for Winnipeg to get a NLL team would be if the Manitoba Moose AHL team moved somewhere else, freeing up a bunch of arena dates and TNSE resources to reallocate to a NLL team instead.

Calgary accommodates NHL, WHL and NLL in the same arena. NLL is only 9 home games in the regular season.

[Boreal]

I would agree with esquire, that there is likely next to zero demand for box lacrosse at the professional level in Manitoba. It isn't on the radar screen of many, if I were to hazard a guess. I think there are plenty of big sports fans that couldn't name one player in the whole league. I think it's tremendous that it has caught on in certain markets, I just don't see Winnipeg as being in that league now or any time in the near future. Soccer and basketball appear to have far more explosive growth potential in our local market.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Calgary accommodates NHL, WHL and NLL in the same arena. NLL is only 9 home games in the regular season.

The AHL season is longer though, it's one game less than the WHL + NLL seasons put together. That said, I don't think it's about arena availability so much as it is resources. Winnipeg has become a very crowded sports market... we have the number of teams you would expect in a considerably larger city. Selling an unknown product like the NLL would take real money and effort. I suspect TNSE is happy to keep chugging along with the Jets and Moose, both of which are known entities with established fanbases and probably don't need nearly as much of an effort to sell.

Originally Posted by Boreal

I would agree with esquire, that there is likely next to zero demand for box lacrosse at the professional level in Manitoba. It isn't on the radar screen of many, if I were to hazard a guess. I think there are plenty of big sports fans that couldn't name one player in the whole league. I think it's tremendous that it has caught on in certain markets, I just don't see Winnipeg as being in that league now or any time in the near future. Soccer and basketball appear to have far more explosive growth potential in our local market.

Agreed. I suspect lacrosse wouldn't last long here, although that could change if one of the sports networks picked up the NLL and started televising games... that would build a profile for the league.

Soccer and basketball tap into different people who aren't necessarily going to Jets and Bomber games... Valour FC demonstrated that, although the team was so shoddy they may have turned some people off. Something like a G League basketball team could do well.

[SteelTown]

Our knight in shining armour, Darko, of Vrancor.

Developer going all in on new downtown Hamilton arena

https://globalnews.ca/news/6454476/d...amilton-arena/



Vrancor Group is offering to 'reinvent' Hamilton's FirstOntario Centre. Rick Zamperin/900 CHML

There appears to be a white knight for Hamilton’s downtown arena.

Vrancor Group has provided the City with a term sheet which outlines the company’s intent to “redevelop Hamilton’s entertainment and convention properties.”

The $200-million proposal says Vrancor will “fully reinvent FirstOntario Centre into a state of the art and technologically modern facility,” while not requesting operating subsidies.

The plan also calls for the expansion and modernization of the Hamilton Convention Centre by doubling its hosting capability and adding a new four-star hotel in the downtown core.

The term sheet also says the City will continue to own the arena and FirstOntario Concert Hall and that Vrancor would be the operator.

The company has been behind the construction of new hotels, commercial and residential buildings in downtown Hamilton over the last 15 years.

On Wednesday, Hamilton councillors rubber-stamped a decision to not pursue a new arena project at Limeride Mall that had been spearheaded by Hamilton Bulldogs owner Michael Andlauer and Cadillac Fairview.

Andlauer had offered to spend $30 million on the project that included a 6,000-seat arena and parking garage at the mall.

Key points in Vrancor Group’s term sheet:

* Vrancor will not request operating subsidies for any of Hamilton’s entertainment/convention properties
* The City will continue to own FirstOntario Centre and FirstOntario Concert Hall, Vrancor would operate the facilities through a long-term licensing arrangement
* Vrancor will not ask the City to borrow any money, or draw upon any reserves to contribute towards the development
* A new four-star hotel will be constructed in downtown Hamilton to serve an expanded Hamilton Convention Centre

[Darkoshvilli]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Our knight in shining armour, Darko

Yes, m'lord?

[JHikka]

It didn't take long for Canada's best small stadium to come under pressure from its neighbours. QEII Hospital expansion plans encroach on current stadium property:

Originally Posted by q12

Gonna be a tight squeeze...

Originally Posted by q12

Yep, here is their statement.



https://hfxwanderersfc.canpl.ca/hfx-...-parkade-plans

[esquire]

^ Is it necessarily that bad? By the looks of things, it's not like it will cut into the field or the grandstand.

[thmx]

New renderings of Vrancor Group's vision for FirstOntario Centre in Hamilton...


Vrancor's vision of the new FirstOntario Centre by R L, on Flickr


Vrancor's vision of the new FirstOntario Centre by R L, on Flickr


Vrancor's vision of the new FirstOntario Centre by R L, on Flickr

The arena in it's current state:

Google Street View | FirstOntario Centre, Hamilton, Ontario

CBC Hamilton | Vrancor has a $200M plan for Hamilton's downtown entertainment facilities

Another group that includes Carmen's and LiUNA has a $500M plan

By Samantha Craggs | January 29, 2019

One of the city's biggest developers says he has a $200-million plan to redevelop Hamilton's aging downtown entertainment facilities, and build two new office buildings to boot.

And unlike a recent proposal to put an arena at Lime Ridge Mall, there's no public money involved.

Darko Vranich, president of Vrancor, said he wants to redevelop FirstOntario Centre, FirstOntario Concert Hall and the Hamilton Convention Centre. That includes revamping the arena and attaching two mid-rise office buildings to it, as well as expanding the Hamilton Convention Centre and renovating FirstOntario Concert Hall.

"We've been working with architects who specialize in arenas and convention centres," said Mario Frankovitch, Vrancor's project advisor. "We've been working on this for months now."

A group called Hamilton Urban Precinct Entertainment Group (HUPEG) is making a $500-million pitch to council to revive the facilities too. That includes Carmen's Group, LiUNA, Fengate Capital, Meridian Credit Union, Paletta International and the Joyce family.

Both groups have submitted term sheets, and councillors are expected to discuss both pitches on Feb. 5. Whichever proposal wins, Frankovich said, what's good for downtown is good for everyone.

"From the perspective of Vrancor, having something happen that is positive in the downtown core is good news," he said. "The visions are slightly different, and that is why we're looking forward to going forward with the vision as imagined by Darko."

The proposals come as council recently nixed a proposal from Cadillac Fairview and the Hamilton Bulldogs hockey team. That team wanted to build a 6,000-seat arena at Lime Ridge mall, which would've required millions in public dollars for a facility that would remain on private property.

Bulldogs owner Michael Andlauer pledged $30 million of his own money toward the $126 million project, and said he'd consider moving the team if the city didn't back the Lime Ridge proposal.

Frankovich says Vrancor hopes to give the Bulldogs what they need too.

As for HUPEG, it wants to build a "new or renovated" convention centre, and make extensive upgrades to the arena and FirstOntario Concert Hall, said PJ Mercanti from Carmen's Group in an email to councillors this month.

HUPEG has signed a letter of intent with IN8 Developments, the new owner of Hamilton City Centre, to create "substantial residential units coupled with the creation of new hospitality and entertainment assets."

The group, Mercanti said in the email, has also had "positive, progressive discussions with the leadership of the Art Gallery of Hamilton, as we intend to support their expansion efforts."

Jason Farr, Ward 2 councillor, said he won't say which plan he likes better. He's "just thrilled" that there are two serious contenders.

"I'm happy both are taking it very seriously, and talking about hundreds of millions of dollars in investments with little to no public money involved."

[thurmas]

are they keeping the upper deck seats in that proposal or lowering the roof to lower bowl seating only?

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Is it necessarily that bad? By the looks of things, it's not like it will cut into the field or the grandstand.

Of course it's bad. It 100% eliminates the option that this stadium can ever expand as the fan base grows. It's mind boggling how many stadia in this county are built with absolutely zero thought to future needs. BMO Field, Universite Laval are just 2 examples of many. Looks like this will be yet another one but at least here it's outside forces at play.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Of course it's bad. It 100% eliminates the option that this stadium can ever expand as the fan base grows. It's mind boggling how many stadia in this county are built with absolutely zero thought to future needs. BMO Field, Universite Laval are just 2 examples of many. Looks like this will be yet another one but at least here it's outside forces at play.

It looks like there's still room to grow, even if it's somewhat marginal. Maybe bump capacity to 10K or something like that. I would imagine that if it were ever a need to get much bigger than that, they'd have had to look at building something completely new anyway since that site never looked capable of handling something huge like 30K+.

But I do take your point about Canadian stadiums often being built in a way that precludes significant expansion.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Of course it's bad. It 100% eliminates the option that this stadium can ever expand as the fan base grows. It's mind boggling how many stadia in this county are built with absolutely zero thought to future needs. BMO Field, Universite Laval are just 2 examples of many. Looks like this will be yet another one but at least here it's outside forces at play.

Are you talking about a different BMO Field than the one in Toronto that has already been expanded by almost 50%?