Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[urbandreamer]

The NY Times has never been WASPY. I think French Canadians idea of Anglophones is just as dated as many working class Ontarians views on Quebec and BC.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by lio45

Unlike me, you’re likely in your riding on e-day

And it’s not news that Tim Hortons’ service speed is absolutely horrible

This is usually true, but there's always advance voting

Tim Hortons is pretty quick unless idiots are ordering sandwiches and junk.

The last time I voted I was in and out in 3 minutes. I'm not even making this up. I was laughing leaving the polling station at how ridiculously painless and easy it was, and thinking of Americans waiting up to 12 hours in line like cable or nightly news show. Cruelty is the point in that country.

lio, being pretty aware of my politics who would I vote for in Quebec?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Typically 'wokist' and lecturing article in the New York Times about the Québec election. In a nutshell, Legault is a racist who has transformed Québec nationalism from a left-leaning movement of national liberation that identified with other similar movements of national liberation in the global South, into a bigoted form of nationalism afraid of immigrants and change.

They went to L'Assomption, north of Montréal (very much as they would go to Trump country) to observe the bigoted 'pure laine' Québécois in their environment. Interestingly the journalist who wrote the article is also the same journalist who, when he was posted in France, wrote some pretty ugly articles about France and its fight against militant Islamism, which he equated with bigotry and racism (the fight against militant Islamism by French authorities, not Islamism). These articles created an outrage in France, even among left-wing liberal circles.



A few excerpts:



I love the "that felt". The alleged racism experienced by new immigrants and veiled Muslim women is presented as objective fact, but the oppression suffered by the French Canadians is purely subjective, "that felt" instead of "that was". This is the sort of subtle (or not so subtle) perniciousness in the New York Times articles.


This quote above could be almost a copy and paste of the articles written by that journalist (when he was posted in France) about France's fight against militant Islamism (always with a local source to back the journalist of course).

Then we get of course the mandatory line about Jacques Parizeau and the "ethnic votes" (I spare you the paragraph).

The article ends with that quote from the Polish Catholic priest of L'Assomption:


What's funny is the likes of the New York Times, when they were very Waspish in the 1960s and 1970s, criticized the left-leaning Québécois nationalism of the PQ with their Waspish glasses (bunch of leftist Commies attacking hard-working Anglo-Montrealer capitalists etc), and now that they have become 'woke', they criticize Québécois nationalism with their new wokist glasses. Things haven't changed much since the Boston Puritans wanted to eradicate that nest of French 'papists' up there in Canada 300 years ago. Whatever the ideology of the moment, French Canada is a threat.

All my life, anglophones, allophones oriented toward the anglo community and ROCers have told me that the Parti Québécois and Québec separatists were the bad guys, racists, xenophobes, fascists, Nazis, etc. All of the nasty stuff assembled in one political movement.

Now it turns out they were the good guys all along!

Even the anglos are now saying that René Lévesque was a great guy, in order to score points against François Legault.

This is all very confusing!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Interesting take on Legault from the G&M. It largely vibes on what has been discussed here IMO, but I am curious as to how accurate the newspaper gets it.

G&M take on Legault

This is a pretty fair portrayal by the Globe and Mail. I've read Eric Andrew-Gee before and he's one of the better anglophone journalists when it comes to reading Quebec.

Right now, the vast majority of anglo media types have decided François Legault is public enemy number one, and are generally publishing hit jobs like the New York Times article posted here as well. One would be led to believe Legault is Orban, Bolsonaro, Le Pen, Meloni, Zemmour and Trump, with a smidgen of Hitler even, rolled into one.

Not bad for a guy who doesn't even command one single soldier!

A minor quibble about the Globe and Mail piece is that it feels like it was written a couple of weeks ago. Legault will still sail to a majority today, but the shine seems to be off him a bit. He's seemed tired and we've heard a couple of boneheaded comments from the CAQ about immigration, for example, that made them look bad and were totally unnecessary. I mean, they can definitely say that immigration needs to "work" for the host society and get away with that here (unlike in the ROC), but they don't need the dog whistles, which end up being counter-productive. The CAQ electorate is much more anxious about identity issues than it is angry. The truly angry people (about most everything) vote for Éric Duhaime's Parti conservateur du Québec. Not the CAQ.

[MolsonExport]

How could anybody from outside of Quebec have the temerity to criticize Quebec? The place is absolutely beyond reproach!! Never mind the circling of the wagons. And never mind the fact that Quebec feels completely entitled to criticize the ROC (lack of culture, etc.).

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

How could anybody from outside of Quebec have the temerity to criticize Quebec? The place is absolutely beyond reproach!! Never mind the circling of the wagons. And never mind the fact that Quebec feels completely entitled to criticize the ROC (lack of culture, etc.).

Sorry but you don't see anything to the same magnitude from Quebec media. Quebec bashing is real and alive.

And seriously.. Jacques Parizeau.. I mean what this drunk old men said wasn't acceptable but that was 27 years ago. Get over it.. Stop living in the past.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

How could anybody from outside of Quebec have the temerity to criticize Quebec? The place is absolutely beyond reproach!! Never mind the circling of the wagons. And never mind the fact that Quebec feels completely entitled to criticize the ROC (lack of culture, etc.).

If this post was directed towards mine, sorry to say but it's not on the same intellectual level.

Please disregard this message if it wasn't the case.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vanatox

And seriously.. Jacques Parizeau.. I mean what this drunk old men said wasn't acceptable but that was 27 years ago. Get over it.. Stop living in the past.

Not to defend him too much but this whole brouhaha merits more savant analysis than the partisan knee-jerk: "OMG Parizeau a été méchant avec les étranges - c'est un méchant racisse!"

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not to defend him too much but this whole brouhaha merits more savant analysis than the partisan knee-jerk: "OMG Parizeau a été méchant avec les étranges - c'est un méchant racisse!"

oh totalement.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

How could anybody from outside of Quebec have the temerity to criticize Quebec? The place is absolutely beyond reproach!! Never mind the circling of the wagons. And never mind the fact that Quebec feels completely entitled to criticize the ROC (lack of culture, etc.).

The point is that if you’re an outsider, make sure your take isn’t too clueless before you publish it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vanatox

Sorry but you don't see anything to the same magnitude from Quebec media. Quebec bashing is real and alive.

.

Quebec bashing is way more about questioning the fundamental moral value and worth of Québécois francophones, as opposed to the dismissal of Anglo-Canada as "America Lite" which yes, many people in this province do engage in.

I know that the latter probably hurts the pride of many Anglo-Canadians but we also get that too (Francophones are just Canadians/Americans exactly like all the others who just happen to speak another language), but in addition we get the frequent assertion that we're hopelessly morally flawed, so just plain bad people.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lio45

The point is that if you’re an outsider, make sure your take isn’t too clueless before you publish it.

But Molson isn't an outsider. He's from Quebec and grew up there. His main crime is that he is a (bilingual) anglo Quebecer and therefore is not chez nous.

He may be bilingual, but he does not feel represented (or appreciated) in the modern Quebec of LeGeault. At least, he would not feel represented if he still lived there.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

But Molson isn't an outsider. He's from Quebec and grew up there. His main crime is that he is a (bilingual) anglo Quebecer and therefore is not chez nous.

He may be bilingual, but he does not feel represented (or appreciated) in the modern Quebec of LeGeault. At least, he would not feel represented if he still lived there.

I don't agree with all of Molson's takes but generally when he takes the trouble to go beyond bombast his opinions at least are not of the clueless variety.

But that doesn't mean that tons of takes on Quebec aren't clueless.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of them in the anglo media these days are.

That one by Eric Andrew-Gee was an exception.

Stuff by Paul Wells and Konrad Yakabuski tends to be reasonably fair as well.

But the fact that I am able to list them off on here shows how rare they really are.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Wigs

lio, being pretty aware of my politics who would I vote for in Quebec?

Depends on context. If you are teleported to Quebec “as is” (say, your employer forces you to move to Montreal) then you are definitely going to vote for the Quebec Liberals.

But if you deliberately want to move there for good reasons (thus presumably integrate), I’d see you eventually voting for the mainstream center-left party, CAQ.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Depends on context. If you are teleported to Quebec “as is” (say, your employer forces you to move to Montreal) then you are definitely going to vote for the Quebec Liberals.

But if you deliberately want to move there for good reasons (thus presumably integrate), I’d see you eventually voting for the mainstream center-left party, CAQ.

Based on his posts on here, I'd say if Wigs were born and raised Québécois (and therefore would have some of this place's unique quirks ingrained in him), he'd probably be voting for Québec solidaire.

Agree with you that "as is" he'd vote for the Quebec Liberals.

[lio45]

So you think Wigs does not hesitate in systematically voting NDP rather than even consider the Liberals? You’re estimating he’s further left than I do. I imagine he tends to vote Lib federally and provincially. Or at least, that he voted for Trudeau in 2015, and Wynne in the past (though maybe not her last election).

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by lio45

The point is that if you’re an outsider, make sure your take isn’t too clueless before you publish it.

.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not to defend him too much but this whole brouhaha merits more savant analysis than the partisan knee-jerk: "OMG Parizeau a été méchant avec les étranges - c'est un méchant racisse!"

I agree. I saw an interview of him recently, from the 2010s before his death, and frankly he was of a higher intellectual caliber than what you see nowadays. Much more articulate than Justin Trudeau seriously, and someone who believed in his ideas, which is rare among politicians nowadays.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

but in addition we get the frequent assertion that we're hopelessly morally flawed, so just plain bad people.

Like I said, it's historical. Ever since the days of the Puritans in New England, French Canada has bothered them, and they keep that old historical hostility, even if they do not necessarily consciously realize it. That hostility also exists vis-à-vis France by the way.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

... and frankly he was of a higher intellectual caliber than what you see nowadays.

That's basically guaranteed, if you're comparing any politician from today to any politician from a generation ago.

That said, Macron seems reasonably intelligent and literate (for a 2020s politician). I'm impressed.