Halifax Stadium Discussion

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Fenwick - was there any thought about looking at a costing formula similar to Nova Centre - where the cost is drawn out over a longer period? I wonder if that should be part of the next step of the examination. What I mean is: Not just look at the size, but the cost as well. So you could cost out a bare bones 15,000 seat stadium, 20k, 25k and then maybe up to 40k/50k? Then how much that would cost bare bones, then with average facilities and then all included and then over 10, 20 or 30 years? I have to admit I haven't been keeping up with this as much - so I'm hoping you or someone on here might be able to answer my question.

Hopefully this will be studied in detail in phase 2. There was a discussion about different stadium types with type-A seats (finished space under the stands), type-B seats (open space under the stands) and type-C seats (temporary seats). Many low cost stadiums are solid, impressive structures with predominately type-B seats. The authors of the report had a fair amount of detail regarding various arrangements of type-A, B and C seats. For example 10,000 Type-A/B permanent seats and 10,000 temporary (type-C seats).

There are discussions of different ownership/operating models which sounds quite similar to discussions for the new convention centre. However, without a professional team it is difficult to quantify the various models (my paraphrasing of the report).




Regarding the Sierra report - http://halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/110802ca3iicow.pdf - there is an illustration in it that doesn't seem to be correct. This is shown below. It gives the impression that a FIFA regulation stadium will require movable sideline seats. In fact a CFL stadium, which is wider than a US stadium, fits very well width-wise within a FIFA regulation field - so a permanent FIFA soccer stadium will also provide a good width for a CFL field with permanent sideline stands and open endzones. A FIFA regulation field is 68 meters wide with 8.5 meter wide sideline border areas (total 85 meters required between sideline stands). At 68 meters wide (223 feet) it is only 28 feet wider than a CFL field (195 feet).

A Canadian football field is significantly longer than a FIFA regulation field. A FIFA regulation size field is 105 meters long plus two 10 meter goal foul areas (for a total of 125 meters total, or 410 feet). A Canadian football field is 110 yards long plus two 20 yards endzones for a total of 150 yards (450 feet) plus endzone foul territory.

The illustration in the report shown below, shows a soccer field that is not a FIFA recommended field size - it is much larger than is recommended and obligatory for international FIFA events. The required FIFA field width is 68 meters wide which is equal to 74.35 yards, not 100 yards as in the illustration below. The length is 105 meters (344.4 feet) which is equal to 114.8 yards not 130 yards. For new stadiums and top FIFA events, not only are these dimensions recommended they are obligatory. The specified field dimensions of 68 meters by 105 meters are the field dimensions for Canada's National Soccer Stadium - BMO Field in Toronto.

(source of the image below - page 80 of the report):


(source of the image below - page 81 of the report):
And this illustration indicates a CFL field with almost no sideline foul territory:




This is how a FIFA regulation size field should be laid out (source: "FIFA Football Stadium - Recommendations and Requirements" - http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/tourname...mmendations_and_requirements_en_8211.pdf )



I did this SketchUp stadium model, which I posted three months ago, to show how a FIFA field and CFL field could coexist very well. I feel confident that the field dimensions in this image are correct. Even with a permanent FIFA field, a coexisting CFL field would be only 15 yards from the first row of seats to the field sideline. This is just to show how the relative fields would fit in a permanent stadium structure.



Although SMU Stadium isn't large enough for 20,000 seats, I drew the overlay below on a Google Earth image of SMU field. I used the SMU field image since it is a field that many people in the Halifax area are familiar with. It shows that a FIFA soccer field and Canadian football field can coexist very well without needing movable sideline seats.




This is how the FIFA soccer field will be laid out in a renovated Ivor Wynne Stadium (Hamilton) for the Pan-Am Games to be held in Toronto and Hamilton in 2015 (source: http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/6FB5.../Aug08EDRMS_n195313_v1_6_6__PED11141.pdf )

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

2.92% (rounded up) is significant? It's certainly not budget crushing...if it got up to double digits before the decimal, I'd be fearful.

I've also been looking into Moncton's budget. They approved for 2011 a recreation budget of about $9.1 million, from what I could find.

It isn't crushing, but it is real money, all of that $17m is spent on rec programs and ops already. So you either have to cut something(s) or get the money from elsewhere in the budget. It's not like that budget isn't spoken for.

The stadium isn't in Moncton's budget because it isn't Moncton's, it is UdeMs. Which is party of why several councillors liked Husky as an option... because Husky would be SMU's deal.

[Empire]

Isn't there anyone who can talk some sense into the negative councillors. The Bedford 4plex cost almost as much as a modest stadium. I don't know what the revenue stream is but even if it breaks even or turns a tiny profit it will never bring in millions to the economy the way a stadium can.

Council WAKE UP?


From the Herald:


More study justified for proposed Halifax stadium


Fri, Aug 5 - 4:55 AM
NOW that a consultant’s $100,000 study has established that a viable business case exists for building and operating a stadium in Halifax Regional Municipality, the next step — a Phase 2 study to determine precise costs, project design and site location — seems sensible to support.

But regional council, which authorized the first consultant’s study late last year, now appears divided on whether it should fund the $275,000 follow-up study.

We agree that no decision to go ahead with a stadium project should be made until all the important questions — funding partners, bottom-line cost, etc. — are answered to council’s, and the public’s, satisfaction. However, approving a Phase 2 study, to help do just that, doesn’t commit HRM.

As the recent report pointed out, funding for the next study could come from the city’s strategic growth reserve, currently at about $3.1 million.

Last week’s report favoured a small stadium of at least 10,000 permanent seats — with capacity doubling by using temporary seating when needed — to be available for community-based sporting and cultural activities, major concerts and to host national and international sporting events.

On that last category, the report pointed out, Halifax doesn’t currently bid for such events — it’s not even in the game — due to its lack of an appropriate venue.

Clearly, Halifax’s bid to be one of the host cities for the 2015 FIFA Women’s World Cup, which has been awarded to Canada, depends on having a stadium.

Although the stadium would run with an operating deficit, including management fees and capital reserve, of up to $475,000 initially, tax-related spinoffs would bring in between $3.5 million and $5.3 million, the recent report stated.

There’s no question the proposed stadium — which would be too small for professional soccer or football but could be expanded in future, if that made sense — would be an asset.

The key question for taxpayers — and city councillors, of course — is at what price.

If the project does make sense financially, governments involved, at all levels, must do a better job of making that case to the public than we’ve seen in the past.

[q12]

If they don't approve phase 2 I might lose it completely and go insane or crazy...

[fenwick16]

It is important to remember that there are many Councilors who support the stadium proposal. Although I also get annoyed that some Councillors won't even support a phase 2 study, some Councillors have gone out of their way in supporting it - examples are Councillor Sloane, Councillor Hendsbee and Councillor Fisher. Councillor Blumenthal has also shown support, although with some reservation. And the Mayor has gone on one radio show after another to promote it. He has also written positive columns in Halifax News Net.

[fenwick16]

The stadium study phase I slide presentation has been posted at halifax.ca. Here is the presentation link - http://halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/110809cow3pres.pdf . It shows two field layouts (which were also in the Sierra Report). The first is correct (below):





But this one is oversized:




I am very puzzled that both the correct layout (first image) and an over-sized soccer field were presented (second). I hope that if phase 2 goes ahead that the stadium design will be based on the first image (labeled Notional Stadium Seating Capacity). Edited: I meant that I hope that the field configuration will be based on the first illustration (the correct field lay-out).

[c-way-dude]

With the fate of the stadium hanging precariously on the Tuesday vote, I would like to ask the private potential stadium investers who approached the mayor last year to go public with their support for the project. There are councillors who are on the fence about the project, but may be persuaded to vote for the stadium if they were given a better idea of where the financing would come from.
Halifax can be known nationally as the city that bailed on both the Commonwealth Games and a basic small local stadium, or it could be the city that shows Canada that you don't have to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to build a stadium. Success here would do a lot to bury the legacy of the failed Commonwealth Games bid. It may not even be far-fetched to suggest that Halifax could provide the example for places like Quebec City and London, should either ever proceed with a stadium.

[q12]

Councillors mull stadium sites
But project could die in debate as early as Tuesday

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Metro/1257173.html

By MICHAEL LIGHTSTONE City Hall Reporter
Sun, Aug 7 - 4:54 AM

A divided regional council is to resume its stadium debate Tuesday at Halifax city hall.

In the meantime, even though the proposed project could be killed at this week’s committee of the whole session, or later this year, a couple of council members have weighed in on where such a development might be located.

Read more here... http://thechronicleherald.ca/Metro/1257173.html

The bickering between Councillours is unbelievable...

[Empire]

Originally Posted by q12

Read more here... http://thechronicleherald.ca/Metro/1257173.html

The bickering between Councillours is unbelievable...

Yes very small time. If people go from Halifax to Moncton for concerts and CFL games then it is quite likely they would go all the way to Dartmouth for the same events.


Coun. Sue Uteck (Northwest Arm-South End) said Saturday she’d prefer to see the sports stadium at Saint Mary’s University expanded. She’s an alumna whose late husband, Larry, was the university’s head football coach and athletic director.

A football fan, she said recently she wouldn’t go to Dartmouth for a game if the municipality’s proposed stadium was situated there, but not because Dartmouth is deficient in some capacity or unappealing in any way.

"I did not say that," Uteck said, referring to a comment she made last week to a local journalist.

She said her remark was part of a longer comment about potential stadium partners.

Coun. Gloria McCluskey (Dartmouth Centre) said Uteck’s won’t-go-to-Dartmouth remark was a parochial salvo. She said sports fans and other event-goers will attend things regardless of where they’re held

[Keith P.]

That "notional" rendering is very disappointing. They mention possibilities for track, but I see no way to accommodate a running track in that configuration. Plus it is barely more than a polished-up Huskies stadium, which really isn't a stadium at all but just a field with a few grandstands. Think about it: the initial configuration will hold fewer people than the Metro Center. Why bother? Borrow a few of the temporary grandstands from Moncton or whereever, put them up on the Burnside sports field that's already there, bring in a few Johnny on the Spots, a french fry truck and a hot dog cart, and hey presto, you have what passes for a stadium in Halifax. Just sad.

[Empire]

The councillors who are dragging their heals on phase II of the stadium proposal are clearly not thinking. If by some very sad state of affairs the proposal is killed on Tuesday and Moncton is a selected site for the 2015 Women's Wold Cup (which will happen) then the pain that HRM will have to live with will be never ending. This will be worse that the Commonwealth Games debacle because at least with that the naysayers could say it was "TOO MUCH MONEY". If this stadium proposal is killed, everyone in the future will say "what were they possibly thinking". Also, it means no stadium until someone else pays for it 100%.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Empire

The councillors who are dragging their heals on phase II of the stadium proposal are clearly not thinking. If by some very sad state of affairs the proposal is killed on Tuesday and Moncton is a selected site for the 2015 Women's Wold Cup (which will happen) then the pain that HRM will have to live with will be never ending. This will be worse that the Commonwealth Games debacle because at least with that the naysayers could say it was "TOO MUCH MONEY". If this stadium proposal is killed, everyone in the future will say "what were they possibly thinking". Also, it means no stadium until someone else pays for it 100%.

Exactly - well put.

The 2011 FIFA World Women's Cup in Germany was well attended with wide coverage in the USA and throughout the world. Just imagine the FIFA Cup being held in Canada in 2015 with it receiving hundreds of millions of viewers throughout the world, and instead of Halifax being one of the cities in the spot-light, it will be Moncton.

I think that many people consider the FIFA World Women's Cup (soccer) to be at the competitive level of international women's hockey for which some teams aren't as good as most low level men's recreation teams (excluding Canada which has several great players). However, the FIFA World Women's Cup has very competitive players all around and it is just as competitive as international women's athletics, international women's tennis, international women's ice skating ... This will be a very high level of international competition. I watched a few of the 2011 FIFA Women's soccer games on TV (and many of the highlights) and it was very entertaining.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Empire

Yes very small time. If people go from Halifax to Moncton for concerts and CFL games then it is quite likely they would go all the way to Dartmouth for the same events.


Coun. Sue Uteck (Northwest Arm-South End) said Saturday she’d prefer to see the sports stadium at Saint Mary’s University expanded. She’s an alumna whose late husband, Larry, was the university’s head football coach and athletic director.

A football fan, she said recently she wouldn’t go to Dartmouth for a game if the municipality’s proposed stadium was situated there, but not because Dartmouth is deficient in some capacity or unappealing in any way.

"I did not say that," Uteck said, referring to a comment she made last week to a local journalist.

She said her remark was part of a longer comment about potential stadium partners.

Coun. Gloria McCluskey (Dartmouth Centre) said Uteck’s won’t-go-to-Dartmouth remark was a parochial salvo. She said sports fans and other event-goers will attend things regardless of where they’re held

To be fair to Councillor Uteck, I am sure that she is referring to SMU football being played in Dartmouth (not the CFL, for example, being played in Dartmouth). This isn't a question of spectator preference but the preference of Saint Mary's University who probably want to keep the games close to their campus.

The question to Councillor Uteck should be - how she can say "no" to the 2015 FIFA Cup and CFL? Saint Mary's University stadium can't be expanded to 20,000 with the present campus configuration (this is required for the FIFA Cup). If, on the other hand, SMU was willing to make alterations to the Tower Athletic Centre and expand to 25,000 seats on a temporary or permanent basis then it would be worth considering.

This is one reason that phase 2 should go ahead, so that these questions can be considered in more detail. Another reason is to develop a stadium design that fund raising can focus on. It will be difficult to raise funds for an abstract stadium design in an unknown location.

[TheNovaScotian]

I disagree Fenwick, Since the greater population of HRM lives off the peninsula having it in a more central location instead of south end Halifax would encourage people in Bedford/Sackville, Dartmouth to go to events, To even entertain the idea of giving SMU a cheap upgraded stadium would be reprehensible considering that Dal being larger would expect a handout from the city as well.
Does anyone have the original statement Coun. Uteck made?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by TheNovaScotian

I disagree Fenwick, Since the greater population of HRM lives off the peninsula having it in a more central location instead of south end Halifax would encourage people in Bedford/Sackville, Dartmouth to go to events, To even entertain the idea of giving SMU a cheap upgraded stadium would be reprehensible considering that Dal being larger would expect a handout from the city as well.
Does anyone have the original statement Coun. Uteck made?

You aren't really disagreeing with me since I stated that the SMU Campus wasn't large enough.

However, regarding Saint Mary's University, HRM is looking for users of the stadium. The majority of HRM residents would like a stadium but the municipality needs to justify the expense and consider ways to finance it. If putting it in a location that eliminates one user then that will make it more difficult to justify. At this time they don't have many events in order to justify the expense (especially without SMU). It is different with the Central Library - people go there for books. People go to a 4-pad ice rink to skate and play hockey. But a stadium is intended for people to go and watch sports and other events.

In my opinion, the only way, that HRM can take the chance of building a 20,000 seat stadium in Dartmouth (or any other location) is to build it as economically as possible. The Pizza Hut Stadium below was quoted in the Sierra Report as costing $35 million for the stadium structure (this is without land cost, without all the other associated playing fields in the sports complex, and without parking). It is essentially just sunken stands seating 21,000 with washrooms and concessions making up the perimeter wall of the stadium. Some of the concession stands could even be set up as tents on event days. I took this screen-capture from Bing Maps - the link is here



Although the Pizza Hut Park stadium doesn't have all the bells and whistles of the new Winnipeg Blue Bombers Stadium, it looks like it was designed to allow for a major expansion, if ever needed. If the lower bowl was completed and an upper tier added then it appears as though it could seat 50,000, if ever required. This looks like it would be a very good start to a major stadium for Halifax. Just imagine it with lots of landscaping and overlooking the Halifax Harbour at Shannon Park. In my opinion, I think it could support a CFL team.

The Yale Bowl is another stadium that is also a simple design but is well liked and considered to be a classic even though the washrooms are just individual buildings surrounding the exterior of the earth bowl.

Yale Bowl - http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qwk03g8...20Haven%2C%20CT%2006515-2256&form=LMLTCC

Also there is the Rose Bowl which was inspired by the Yale Bowl - http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=ppt6tm5...asadena%2C%20CA%2091103-2813&form=LMLTCC

The Standford stadium was also a bowl shape but it was demolished and re-designed with the stands closer to the playing field similar to the Pizza Hut Park stadium design. The Stanford design looks similar to the Pizza Hut Park with an upper tier - here is the Wikipedia link.

[TheNovaScotian]

If we build something along the lines of the Pizza Hut stadium which I agree with especially the option to expand up to 50 000, I would be ecstatic. My problem being that if we are to entertain the idea of doing it at SMU then we would be limiting the potential size of the stadium. Currently having 2 people on the steering committee who seem to want a re-fitted Huskie Stadium makes our only option to have a reasonable sized stadium built is to take it off the table completely then we can't be pushed around by the university on the design and use of it . Realistically, the "if you build it they will come" philosophy sort of fits because as Huskie Stadium erodes away to nothing and declining enrollment numbers drain their ability to repair it, we then have the only stadium in town to host Vanier Cups, or highly attended local rivalries or any game over a few thousand people.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by TheNovaScotian

If we build something along the lines of the Pizza Hut stadium which I agree with especially the option to expand up to 50 000, I would be ecstatic. My problem being that if we are to entertain the idea of doing it at SMU then we would be limiting the potential size of the stadium. Currently having 2 people on the steering committee who seem to want a re-fitted Huskie Stadium makes our only option to have a reasonable sized stadium built is to take it off the table completely then we can't be pushed around by the university on the design and use of it . Realistically, the "if you build it they will come" philosophy sort of fits because as Huskie Stadium erodes away to nothing and declining enrollment numbers drain their ability to repair it, we then have the only stadium in town to host Vanier Cups, or highly attended local rivalries or any game over a few thousand people.

The Sierra Report seems to rule out an expanded SMU stadium (it was mentioned as an existing stadium with a track) since it cannot be expanded past 13,900 seats:
(source: page 92/293 of the report - http://halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/110802ca3iicow.pdf )

In the context of this analysis, an assessment has been undertaken of the capacity to redesign an existing facility in the City to achieve the 20,000 seat specifications for the FIFA world cup event, as well as a legacy design which provides for a major venue for major spectator sports events within HRM. The results of this analysis demonstrate that a comfortable expansion of the seating at the facility is achievable if the track is removed. This could yield approximately 13,900 seats. It does not meet the FIFA requirements.

The report mentioned campus style opportunities but they are referring to a plan whereby there are multiple fields and infrastructure (as in a campus style business development) not a stadium on a university campus - source page 104/293 of the report.

There is no need for any more speculation since the decision will be made by HRM Council on August 9th. If they decide not to go with phase 2 of the study then they will be saying no to a municipal stadium, the FIFA Cup and the CFL since SMU is too small even if it is expanded (as paraphrased from the report).

[halifaxboyns]

There are a number of challenges for HRM with regards to a stadium:

1) Ensure they have users to make the stadium economically viable.
2) Build the 'right' size of stadium (very arbitrary statement, but essentially build it in a way that it's a good size but expandable).
3) Put it in the 'right' place. (very arbitrary)

To me; it's great that HRM is thinking about ensuring that the stadium is used and used often. The challenge HRM has is geography. The two biggest potential users that could walk in on opening day are Dal and SMU. Both could use it for football games, soccer and a host of other things - thus earning $ to reduce the potential operating losses predicted (and possibly turning it around to a profit).

The biggest issue with ensuring these groups use the stadium is that there is virtually no place to put it in the south end. Yeah you could expand the SMU stadium; but as has been pointed out it can only get so big. Plus the site on Robie Street (just above SMU), which has been talked about on here, would probably cause so much negativity it would be scuttled. The other location which Fenwick suggested (near the forum) - would probably be too far away. I get the feeling that unless the stadium were in their own backyard - they wouldn't want to use it. So the location criteria of the next phase will be really interesting.

The issue of size is pretty important too. If the size they want to build is the same as Moncton - it seems to me, to be a waste. If the whole point is to eventually get a CFL franchise, we need to be somewhere near what they need.

I like the idea that has been floated that potential corporate sponsors should get on board with this and get out in the media. Has anyone contacted members of the committee and suggested this? Just a thought - but if it were suggested, it could get out in the media pretty quick.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

There are a number of challenges for HRM with regards to a stadium:

1) Ensure they have users to make the stadium economically viable.
2) Build the 'right' size of stadium (very arbitrary statement, but essentially build it in a way that it's a good size but expandable).
3) Put it in the 'right' place. (very arbitrary)

To me; it's great that HRM is thinking about ensuring that the stadium is used and used often. The challenge HRM has is geography. The two biggest potential users that could walk in on opening day are Dal and SMU. Both could use it for football games, soccer and a host of other things - thus earning $ to reduce the potential operating losses predicted (and possibly turning it around to a profit).

The biggest issue with ensuring these groups use the stadium is that there is virtually no place to put it in the south end. Yeah you could expand the SMU stadium; but as has been pointed out it can only get so big. Plus the site on Robie Street (just above SMU), which has been talked about on here, would probably cause so much negativity it would be scuttled. The other location which Fenwick suggested (near the forum) - would probably be too far away. I get the feeling that unless the stadium were in their own backyard - they wouldn't want to use it. So the location criteria of the next phase will be really interesting.

The issue of size is pretty important too. If the size they want to build is the same as Moncton - it seems to me, to be a waste. If the whole point is to eventually get a CFL franchise, we need to be somewhere near what they need.

I like the idea that has been floated that potential corporate sponsors should get on board with this and get out in the media. Has anyone contacted members of the committee and suggested this? Just a thought - but if it were suggested, it could get out in the media pretty quick.

Exactly, councillors need to get past this idea that stadium should make money. Again, there will be an operating deficit as the Oval will have ($110,000) and the Forum and the Sportsplex. The Oval, Forum and Sportsplex together don't have nearly the potential to generate the regional economic spinoffs as a stadium would have. THE OPERATING COSTS WILL BE OFFESET BY THE SPINOFFS. When the stadium is up and running there will be corporate support to assist in operating costs. There has been corporate support for the Oval and there certainly will be for a stadium. Maybe in the first three years a $1.00 surcharge could be added to tickets to assist with operating costs?

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Empire

Exactly, councillors need to get past this idea that stadium should make money. Again, there will be an operating deficit as the Oval will have ($110,000) and the Forum and the Sportsplex. The Oval, Forum and Sportsplex together don't have nearly the potential to generate the regional economic spinoffs as a stadium would have. THE OPERATING COSTS WILL BE OFFESET BY THE SPINOFFS. When the stadium is up and running there will be corporate support to assist in operating costs. There has been corporate support for the Oval and there certainly will be for a stadium. Maybe in the first three years a $1.00 surcharge could be added to tickets to assist with operating costs?

In the CTV article about Moncton - they were thinking about a hotel room levy. HRM already has one, but it could be increased say 25 cents or even a dollar? This way, anytime throughout the year there is a significant draw to hotel rooms - that money can go towards the stadium (in addition to the ticket surcharge).

This goes back to my original statement way back when - not everything that a city operates makes money.