Canadian Airport Thread II

[casper]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Correction: the flight attendants started out with a support. Now in one fell swoop they’ve cast themselves as lawbreakers. That’s one thing Canadians don’t like.

I have to agree. It makes Air Canada look like the victim. Given Air Canada's reputation that is not easy.

There is an assumption that the arbitration process will not be kind to the flight attendants. That has yet to be proven.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by whatnext

C’est la vie. Air travel is too cheap anyway. That’s why we’re seeing mass tourism protests around the world.

Air travel is fine. Overtourism is largely caused by short term rentals (eg. AirBnB) and cruise ships. A 737 can drop off 200 people. A cruise ship can drop off 2000. These are very different problems. Flights are not extraordinarily cheaper than 20 years ago. What is cheaper is accommodations, thanks to STRs.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

AC’s F/As are electing to remain on strike: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/air-canada-flights-sunday-1.7611078

As someone risking getting stranded in Europe right as school starts, this is not fun.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Air travel is fine. Overtourism is largely caused by short term rentals (eg. AirBnB) and cruise ships. A 737 can drop off 200 people. A cruise ship can drop off 2000. These are very different problems. Flights are not extraordinarily cheaper than 20 years ago. What is cheaper is accommodations, thanks to STRs.

Flights aren't much more than they were 20 years ago, while inflation has pushed everything else up. Outside of Canada, short and medium haul flights remain quite cheap. You can book a round trip fare for two on Wizz from London to Rome in September for 157 quid.

[acottawa]

If the government thinks flight attendants are essential like cops and firefighters then they should not have the right to strike and there should be a process to ensure they are fairly compensated.

If they have the right to strike it is ridiculous that they get ordered back to work under exactly the terms the employer is asking for after only 12 hours on strike. I hope the courts find the Industrial Relations Board order invalid.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by acottawa

If the government thinks flight attendants are essential like cops and firefighters then they should not have the right to strike and there should be a process to ensure they are fairly compensated.

If they have the right to strike it is ridiculous that they get ordered back to work under exactly the terms the employer is asking for after only 12 hours on strike. I hope the courts find the Industrial Relations Board order invalid.

The Supreme Court long ago ruled that the definition of essential workers is very narrowly defined so not much beyond first responders being forbidden from striking qualifies. Certainly not anything transportation-related south of the 60th parallel (nor to YZF or YXY where there's a plethora of alternatives too).

[casper]

Well looks like the continuation of the strike is now unlawful.....

Federal labour board deems Air Canada flight attendants' strike 'unlawful'

In a decision released Monday morning, the Canada Industrial Relations Board (CIRB) said the defiance of a back-to-work order on Sunday by the Canadian Union of Public Employees (CUPE) is "unlawful."

The order calls on the union to "cease all activities that declare or authorize an unlawful strike of its members and to direct the members of the bargaining unit to resume the performance of their duties" by noon ET.

The decision comes after a hearing on Sunday following a frazzled weekend for travellers.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/air-canada-strike-illegal-1.7611447

There are a lot of people being impacted by this strike. If there were slack in the WestJet and Porter schedule and Air Canada was being forced to buy seats for their passengers on other airlines that would be one thing. But this is summer when everyone is booked solid.

Last year I stopped flying WestJet because of their labour unrest, to punish WestJet. I now must stop flying Air Canada for a while so back to WestJet and Porter being my airline of choice until they do the same. I am likely Porter, they have a lot of potential especially if the deal with American can be worked out.

WestJet does some weird things. There inflight service only has that powdered Nestle Coffee-mate for the coffee. But I am going off topic.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Air travel is fine. Overtourism is largely caused by short term rentals (eg. AirBnB) and cruise ships. A 737 can drop off 200 people. A cruise ship can drop off 2000. These are very different problems. Flights are not extraordinarily cheaper than 20 years ago. What is cheaper is accommodations, thanks to STRs.

That's not true. In 1983 I specifically remember as a kid that my ticket to Hawai'i was $483 dollars (thanks to my parents impressing that fact into me). This year I got a $299 return fare.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by whatnext

That's not true. In 1983 I specifically remember as a kid that my ticket to Hawai'i was $483 dollars (thanks to my parents impressing that fact into me). This year I got a $299 return fare.

Me: "Flights are not extraordinarily cheaper than 20 years ago."

You: " In 1983 .... "

I'm sure you can subtract 20 from 2025.

But to your point. Air fare did get cheaper through the 80s and 90s after deregulation. But those price declines have been minimal over the last two decades.

Also, I don't remember many complaints about overtourism before the advent of AirBnB (2007) or before cruise ships got supersized over the last decade. Today, protests in most touristy places are largely aimed at AirBnB and cruise ships. I've but heard too many people complaining about more flights.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Air travel is fine. Overtourism is largely caused by short term rentals (eg. AirBnB) and cruise ships. A 737 can drop off 200 people. A cruise ship can drop off 2000. These are very different problems. Flights are not extraordinarily cheaper than 20 years ago. What is cheaper is accommodations, thanks to STRs.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/travel/travel-price-tracker

According to this US airfare prices are down 16.6% from 10 years ago. That's over a 50% decline in real terms!


Comparatively, hotels are up 12.3%, so a decrease of about 20% in real terms..

Flying becoming cheaper has been one of the defining trends of travel in the 21st century. I'm not sure what you are on about.

AirBnB has not put immense pressure on hotel prices downwards from my experience as much as it has absorbed a large amount of hotel demand that would have otherwise occurred in the last 15 years with the rapidly dropping cost of flights and rapid proliferation of recreational flying in the 21st century.

You see this in airport passenger numbers too, which have seen massive increases since 2000. YYZ has roughly doubled it's annual passenger count since 2003 despite the population growing by about 40% in that time, which means people are flying about 30% more frequently than they were 20 years ago. And during that period we have seen a decline in business travel and far larger increases in recreational trips.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/travel/travel-price-tracker

According to this US airfare prices are down 16.6% from 10 years ago. That's over a 50% decline in real terms!


Comparatively, hotels are up 12.3%, so a decrease of about 20% in real terms..

Flying becoming cheaper has been one of the defining trends of travel in the 21st century. I'm not sure what you are on about.

To some extent it is an apples and oranges comparison.

Well, 20 years ago, you were not paying for seat selection, baggage, meals etc to the same extent now. The airlines have managed to segment and bundle their product to create more tiers of service than you would have had in the past.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Me: "Flights are not extraordinarily cheaper than 20 years ago."

You: " In 1983 .... "

I'm sure you can subtract 20 from 2025.

But to your point. Air fare did get cheaper through the 80s and 90s after deregulation. But those price declines have been minimal over the last two decades.

Also, I don't remember many complaints about overtourism before the advent of AirBnB (2007) or before cruise ships got supersized over the last decade. Today, protests in most touristy places are largely aimed at AirBnB and cruise ships. I've but heard too many people complaining about more flights.

Some of the issue around AirBNB has been around digital nomads disrupting local housing markets since WFH was normalized. For example, in Mexico City since the pandemic there have been Americans living out of AirBNBs there for top peso and working remotely for American companies. This has been incredibly disruptive for their housing market as traditionally housing costs there have been a fraction of that of the US or Canada (as an example, in 2018 I saw an ad for a brand new luxury condo in CDMX for about a million pesos, or at the time CAD $90,000). There have been protests there this summer over this.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Some of the issue around AirBNB has been around digital nomads disrupting local housing markets since WFH was normalized. For example, in Mexico City since the pandemic there have been Americans living out of AirBNBs there for top peso and working remotely for American companies. This has been incredibly disruptive for their housing market as traditionally housing costs there have been a fraction of that of the US or Canada (as an example, in 2018 I saw an ad for a brand new luxury condo in CDMX for about a million pesos, or at the time CAD $90,000). There have been protests there this summer over this.

And it's all in part aided by cheap airfare so those ex-pats can jaunt back to their home office or friends and family for a relative pittance.

[whatnext]

Lots of inconvenienced travelers though I had to laugh at this woman from Italy of all places complaining about strikes!

....“I will never come back to Canada due to this strike,” said one woman from Italy who is left stranded at YVR.

“I’m sorry. It’s a pity because Canada is wonderful. You can’t allow a strike in a holiday period,” she added in an interview with 1130 NewsRadio.

Especially international travelers face obstacles in scrambling to get home after visiting Canada....

https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2025/08/18/air-canada-strike-mix-emotions-yvr/

I'll be interested to see how tough they get with CUPE. Treat them too leniently and ordering railway workers etc will be much tougher next time.

[thenoflyzone]

Since yesterday, and until at least thursday, EK has upgauged YUL to a 77W. YYZ is also seeing the higher capacity (516/517 seat) A380.

I’m sure EK would have probably sent the A380 to YUL as well right now if they could. Unfortunately, due to construction, the airport can’t accommodate code F aircraft until the end of September.

E3890/25 NOTAMR E2297/25
Q) CZUL/QFALT/IV/NBO/A/000/999/4528N07344W005
A) CYUL B) 2507031918 C) 2509230300
E)AD NOT AVBL TO ACFT WITH WINGSPAN GREATER THAN 213FT
CREATED: 03 Jul 2025 19:18:00

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/travel/travel-price-tracker

According to this US airfare prices are down 16.6% from 10 years ago. That's over a 50% decline in real terms!


Comparatively, hotels are up 12.3%, so a decrease of about 20% in real terms..

Flying becoming cheaper has been one of the defining trends of travel in the 21st century. I'm not sure what you are on about.

AirBnB has not put immense pressure on hotel prices downwards from my experience as much as it has absorbed a large amount of hotel demand that would have otherwise occurred in the last 15 years with the rapidly dropping cost of flights and rapid proliferation of recreational flying in the 21st century.

You see this in airport passenger numbers too, which have seen massive increases since 2000. YYZ has roughly doubled it's annual passenger count since 2003 despite the population growing by about 40% in that time, which means people are flying about 30% more frequently than they were 20 years ago. And during that period we have seen a decline in business travel and far larger increases in recreational trips.

I'm not sure what you're on about. People in Barcelona aren't protesting about British tourists day tripping because of cheap Ryanair flight. They are protesting about massive chunks of housing stock being turned over to AirBnB. People in Venice aren't lining up to block passengers from getting off airplanes. They are protesting more cruise ships.

Again, show me where overtourism is considered a problem of cheap flights rather than short term rentals and cruise ships.

I don't know about you. But when I travel somewhere, the flight is not the majority of my trip cost. As such a sightly cheaper flight isn't going to make me travel more. And that isn't easily reflected in statistics of hotel rates, because hotels largely refused to compete with STRs. They basically decided to surrender the lower propensity traveller to STRs while keeping room rates. This is why the number of STRs and AirBnB ate cities like Barcelona while those places didn't see substantial additions of new hotel rooms.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by casper

To some extent it is an apples and oranges comparison.

Well, 20 years ago, you were not paying for seat selection, baggage, meals etc to the same extent now. The airlines have managed to segment and bundle their product to create more tiers of service than you would have had in the past.

I also wonder how much this translates to in real terms. The stats look at seat costs. What's the practical airfare difference when baggage and seat selection fees are thrown in?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Flights aren't much more than they were 20 years ago, while inflation has pushed everything else up. Outside of Canada, short and medium haul flights remain quite cheap. You can book a round trip fare for two on Wizz from London to Rome in September for 157 quid.

Sure. But again, what do you think makes Romans complain about overtourism? The £157 airfare or the AirBnB said London origin traveller takes up when they get there? Or do you think Romans are upset at their restaurants being busier?

Also, this is a Canadian thread in a discussion about Air Canada. Complaints about overtourism are kinda ridiculous in a country where air travel is still quite expensive. We don't have $300 rt fares to Rome from here. Heck, we don't get $300 RT fares between major centres like Toronto and Calgary.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by casper

To some extent it is an apples and oranges comparison.

Well, 20 years ago, you were not paying for seat selection, baggage, meals etc to the same extent now. The airlines have managed to segment and bundle their product to create more tiers of service than you would have had in the past.

Out of curiosity I did an apples to apples comparison, putting in a flight from 2012 on the same dates in the same fare class with the same routing. It was about 50% more, but I can also get an economy basic for almost exactly the same price I paid for a Tango Plus in 2012.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Sure. But again, what do you think makes Romans complain about overtourism? The £157 airfare or the AirBnB said London origin traveller takes up when they get there? Or do you think Romans are upset at their restaurants being busier?

Also, this is a Canadian thread in a discussion about Air Canada. Complaints about overtourism are kinda ridiculous in a country where air travel is still quite expensive. We don't have $300 rt fares to Rome from here. Heck, we don't get $300 RT fares between major centres like Toronto and Calgary.

It is probably all of the above: airbnb, discount flights, megaflights from Middle Eastern and Asian carriers, more train traffic, remote workers, instagram, massive growth in the number of retirees and their affluence.

To the extent overtourism is a problem in Canada, it is probably less related to flights and more related to Trump.