Downtowns are back

[Crawford]

Re. Birmingham, it isn't great urbanity or anything, but it isn't quite as bad as depicted.

For the South, it has pretty good bones. There are upscale neighborhoods south of downtown that are quite substantial and charming. The area around UAB and the medical center is decent. Mountain Brook is a nice suburb. You can definitely live in Birmingham proper and be in a nice neighborhood. Of course the nice areas are segregated, conservative-leaning (even intown locations) and virtually all white. And if you're Catholic, or Jewish or nonreligious, you'll be an outsider. It's still Alabama.

Also, these comparisons are a bit silly bc some metro areas include a lot of near-empty land, and some don't. I suspect Birmingham isn't really massively sprawlier than other Southern cities, it just has slightly emptier fringe incorporated in the MSA.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa

And if Birmingham hadn't been such a corrupt and racist place, it would have 6 million people now, not Atlanta: https://www.al.com/opinion/2019/07/b...wo-cities.html

Much of Atlanta's rise came from its proximity to Florida and its favorable position on I-75, which routes all Florida-bound traffic from St. Louis to Chicago to Detroit (the Great Lakes region has a similar population to California) travels through it. Atlanta was the edge of civilization back in 1950, when Florida only had 2 million residents. Now Florida has 20 million residents, giving Atlanta a huge regional market that didn't exist historically.

Meanwhile, I-65 connects Birmingham with Mobile, and there is no direct interstate highway that connects Birmingham (via Montgomery) with Florida. The fastest path from Birmingham to Orlando is...through Atlanta.

[Yuri]

Downtown Austin



--------------------------------- 2020 ------ 2010 ------ 2000 ------ 1990 ------ Growth ------ Area ------ Density

Downtown --------------------- 11,021 ------ 6,851 ------ 3,855 ------ 3,882 ------ 60.9% --- 77.7% ---- -0.7% ------- 4.1 km² ---- 2,719.2 inh./km²

Austin MSA ---------------- 2,283,371 -- 1,716,309 -- 1,249,763 ---- 846,227 ------ 33.0% --- 37.3% ---- 47.7% -- 10,928 km²


Downtown Austin, and Austin for that matter, are discussed a lot here in SSP. Not much to say other than growing very fast. Total population was not as big as I thought. Slightly more populated than Memphis', for example.

The MSA, as the other Texan metro areas, with no signs of slowing down despite already being big. Very impressive.

[IluvATX]

What if you include West Campus into Austin’s downtown? I know it’s not in the CBD.

[TimCity2000]

Originally Posted by Crawford

You can definitely live in Birmingham proper and be in a nice neighborhood. Of course the nice areas are segregated, conservative-leaning (even intown locations) and virtually all white.

the bolded part is not true. birmingham is a very blue city, even in the city's predominantly white neighborhoods. that changes rapidly, of course, once you move into the suburbs.

[L41A]

NO!

Atlanta promoted itself as a welcoming place to do business which was a catalyst for its growth in the 1950-60s which separated it from places like Birmingham. Florida marketed itself as a state a little later as a place for retirement, vacation, tourism, weather which catapulted its growth.

I don’t believe in the 1950s when Atlanta Mayor Hartsfield led the city to invest in air travel/airport which built upon Atlanta's railroad hub and transportation history that he had Florida in mind. Nor do I think he or anyone thought Interstate Highway System (I-75) would play such a prominent role in travel. The openness in the 1960s of Atlanta’s city leadership, business community, and educational institutions to engage with young, intelligent civil rights leadership of the day along with the aforementioned 1950s civic leadership/forethought toward airport infrastructure was key to Atlanta’s growth to another level.

The synergy for growth between Atlanta and Florida is minimal (if any). Atlanta's connection is far greater to the Carolinas - and even to Tennessee, Alabama, other Mid-Atlantic, SE and Midwestern states than it is to Florida. The growth is especially independent to the Central/Southern parts of Florida which are the areas of Florida that have really grown.

Even today, the growth of Atlanta and Florida is separated by a large swath of South Georgia and North Florida that physically, culturally, topographically separates the two.
Georgia and Florida is my ancestral heritage. If I were drop some of my deep respect for nuances (Everything is Every Thing) Georgia and Florida could be divided into 3 states with North Georgia being one state, South Florida being another and the third being South Georgia/North Florida - minus the panhandle which is similarly (timezone, etc) to Alabama.

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

Much of Atlanta's rise came from its proximity to Florida and its favorable position on I-75, which routes all Florida-bound traffic from St. Louis to Chicago to Detroit (the Great Lakes region has a similar population to California) travels through it. Atlanta was the edge of civilization back in 1950, when Florida only had 2 million residents. Now Florida has 20 million residents, giving Atlanta a huge regional market that didn't exist historically.

Meanwhile, I-65 connects Birmingham with Mobile, and there is no direct interstate highway that connects Birmingham (via Montgomery) with Florida. The fastest path from Birmingham to Orlando is...through Atlanta.

[L41A]

Originally Posted by KB0679

While Georgia Tech is in Midtown, Georgia State is most definitely located in downtown and has arguably been the most active real estate developer within downtown over the past decade due to its rapid growth.

As far as attractions in downtown Atlanta, you're forgetting the entire area around Centennial Olympic Park which includes the aquarium, World of Coke, civil/human rights museum, and the College Football HOF. Sweet Auburn is easily accessible from downtown via the streetcar.



This is assuming that Birmingham's gain would have been Atlanta's loss and there's no good reason to believe this would've been the case. Also it wasn't just that Atlanta wasn't nearly as violently racist that accounts for its rapid growth post-civil rights, it's because, while still very much a Southern city, its Black institutions, civil rights vanguard, business/professional class, and political class gave it the most progressive of reputations among Southern cities. This is why Atlanta became the biggest beneficiary of the "Reverse Migration" among Black Americans at the outset in 1970 and hasn't relinquished that position in 50 years.

Aside from racial issues, Birmingham still had two big things working against it: 1) local steel industrialists who supported Jim Crow to discourage outside economic investment and thus competition as a means of keeping wages low and Northern-based corporate owners who were absent and largely unconcerned with local matters; and 2) geography as Georgia's location on the Atlantic coast and in the EST zone was more advantageous for it as an airport and business hub with connections to East Coast business interests. Also, even without all the racial strife and violence in Birmingham, Alabama would still have a bad reputation for civil rights with Selma, Montgomery, George Wallace's rhetoric and antics, etc which would wind up still negatively impacting Birmingham to some extent.

Very thoughtful, comprehensive, contextual, knowledgeable response.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by TimCity2000

the bolded part is not true. birmingham is a very blue city, even in the city's predominantly white neighborhoods. that changes rapidly, of course, once you move into the suburbs.

Voting blue doesn't make a city liberal.

And Birmingham's white neighborhoods aren't particularly blue. In fact many in-town neighborhoods are red-leaning, which is really rare in the U.S. these days. Granted, those neighborhoods are liberal in the context of Alabama, but they're hardly liberal by U.S. standards.

It's like asking whether Tuscaloosa is liberal. For Alabama standards, yes, extremely liberal. For national standards, it's probably one of the most conservative major college towns.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by IluvATX

What if you include West Campus into Austin’s downtown? I know it’s not in the CBD.

I haven't worked on other neighbourhoods for Austin. Looking at the census tract map, they're denser than Downtown.

[Yuri]

Downtown Salt Lake City



--------------------------------- 2020 ------ 2010 ------ 2000 ------ 1990 ------ Growth -------- Area -------- Density

Downtown --------------------- 17,633 ----- 11,669 ------ 9,374 ------ 7,637 ------ 51.1% --- 24.5% --- 22.7% ------- 7.0 km² ---- 2,517.2 inh./km²

Salt Lake City MSA -------- 1,257,936 -- 1,087,873 ---- 939,122 ---- 752,557 ------ 15.6% --- 15.8% --- 24.8% -- 19.902 km²

Salt Lake City CSA -------- 2,701,129 -- 2,271,696 -- 1,846,252 -- 1,435,855 ------ 18.9% --- 23.0% --- 28.6% -- 60.496 km²


Salt Lake City is the textbook boomtown and we don't usually associate them with urban living, but still, its Downtown is growing very fast, showing how strong is this trend in the US.

The MSA, as the other Texan metro areas, with no signs of slowing down despite being already big. It's very well discussed, but still very impressive nevertheless.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by L41A

NO!

Atlanta promoted itself as a welcoming place to do business which was a catalyst for its growth in the 1950-60s which separated it from places like Birmingham. Florida marketed itself as a state a little later as a place for retirement, vacation, tourism, weather which catapulted its growth.

I don’t believe in the 1950s when Atlanta Mayor Hartsfield led the city to invest in air travel/airport which built upon Atlanta's railroad hub and transportation history that he had Florida in mind. Nor do I think he or anyone thought Interstate Highway System (I-75) would play such a prominent role in travel. The openness in the 1960s of Atlanta’s city leadership, business community, and educational institutions to engage with young, intelligent civil rights leadership of the day along with the aforementioned 1950s civic leadership/forethought toward airport infrastructure was key to Atlanta’s growth to another level.

The synergy for growth between Atlanta and Florida is minimal (if any). Atlanta's connection is far greater to the Carolinas - and even to Tennessee, Alabama, other Mid-Atlantic, SE and Midwestern states than it is to Florida. The growth is especially independent to the Central/Southern parts of Florida which are the areas of Florida that have really grown.

Even today, the growth of Atlanta and Florida is separated by a large swath of South Georgia and North Florida that physically, culturally, topographically separates the two.
Georgia and Florida is my ancestral heritage. If I were drop some of my deep respect for nuances (Everything is Every Thing) Georgia and Florida could be divided into 3 states with North Georgia being one state, South Florida being another and the third being South Georgia/North Florida - minus the panhandle which is similarly (timezone, etc) to Alabama.

Yeah, I don't see the connection between Atlanta and Florida, either. Georgia was actually bigger than Florida up until 1960. Florida's population started to skyrocket because of Miami and immigration from Cuba, and Miami is pretty far from Atlanta. Atlanta is only slightly closer to Miami than it is to Detroit.

[Lobotomizer]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

Downtown Austin



--------------------------------- 2020 ------ 2010 ------ 2000 ------ 1990 ------ Growth ------ Area ------ Density

Downtown --------------------- 11,021 ------ 6,851 ------ 3,855 ------ 3,882 ------ 60.9% --- 77.7% ---- -0.7% ------- 4.1 km² ---- 2,719.2 inh./km²

Austin MSA ---------------- 2,283,371 -- 1,716,309 -- 1,249,763 ---- 846,227 ------ 33.0% --- 37.3% ---- 47.7% -- 10,928 km²


Downtown Austin, and Austin for that matter, are discussed a lot here in SSP. Not much to say other than growing very fast. Total population was not as big as I thought. Slightly more populated than Memphis', for example.

The MSA, as the other Texan metro areas, with no signs of slowing down despite already being big. Very impressive.

I understand why you did not include tract 12, as the majority of the area is not downtown.

However, a not inconsequential portion of our downtown does reside in tract 12. The tallest building in Austin, and many other residential buildings as well are all located in tract 12, but are not included in your total.

All of the area between Shoal Creek and Lamar Blvd. Is definitely downtown, and it's unfortunate the way the tracts are drawn because there are thousands of people excluded which do indeed reside downtown.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Lobotomizer

I understand why you did not include tract 12, as the majority of the area is not downtown.

However, a not inconsequential portion of our downtown does reside in tract 12. The tallest building in Austin, and many other residential buildings as well are all located in tract 12, but are not included in your total.

All of the area between Shoal Creek and Lamar Blvd. Is definitely downtown, and it's unfortunate the way the tracts are drawn because there are thousands of people excluded which do indeed reside downtown.

As I organized data for over 60 downtowns, I saw this kind of thing a lot. While in many places census tracts match perfectly the official/most common Downtown definition, in others there are some blocks left out or some big non-Downtown areas included.

About the highest building, isn't it this one on the the pic? If it's, it's included on the 4 tracts making Downtown Austin here.

[Lobotomizer]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

As I organized data for over 60 downtowns, I saw this kind of thing a lot. While in many places census tracts match perfectly the official/most common Downtown definition, in others there are some blocks left out or some big non-Downtown areas included.

About the highest building, isn't it this one on the the pic? If it's, it's included on the 4 tracts making Downtown Austin here.

Nope, although the tallest building in that pic (Austonian) was Austin's tallest until a few years ago.

The current tallest is the Independent, which is several blocks to the west. There's a whole cluster of towers just out of frame in that photo, many of which are in tract 12.

Here's a photo showing the area.
https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...postcount=2942

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Lobotomizer

Nope, although the tallest building in that pic (Austonian) was Austin's tallest until a few years ago.

The current tallest is the Independent, which is several blocks to the west. There's a whole cluster of towers just out of frame in that photo, many of which are in tract 12.

Here's a photo showing the area.
https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...postcount=2942

Interesting. Would you say that area (Downtown, the Campus) is the largest patch of urban living in Texas or CBD Dallas and neighbouring districts are still bigger/more urban? Or maybe Downtown Houston?

[Lobotomizer]

The university area are the tracts directly north of downtown, and contain the densest tracts in the state, some of which are over 70,000 ppsm.

If you were to take the area within say a 2 mile radius of the Capitol, which would include downtown, UT, and the surrounding neighborhoods, I believe it is the densest, most urban area in the state.

I could be mistaken of course, and am not trying to start a versus thread.

Here are some pics of the area called West Campus, which is rapidly densifying, and is adding another cluster of highrises just north of downtown.

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...&postcount=325

[The ATX]

That partial photo of downtown Austin is around 10 years old. A lot has been built since then.

[dktshb]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

Downtown Austin



--------------------------------- 2020 ------ 2010 ------ 2000 ------ 1990 ------ Growth ------ Area ------ Density

Downtown --------------------- 11,021 ------ 6,851 ------ 3,855 ------ 3,882 ------ 60.9% --- 77.7% ---- -0.7% ------- 4.1 km² ---- 2,719.2 inh./km²

Austin MSA ---------------- 2,283,371 -- 1,716,309 -- 1,249,763 ---- 846,227 ------ 33.0% --- 37.3% ---- 47.7% -- 10,928 km²


Downtown Austin, and Austin for that matter, are discussed a lot here in SSP. Not much to say other than growing very fast. Total population was not as big as I thought. Slightly more populated than Memphis', for example.

The MSA, as the other Texan metro areas, with no signs of slowing down despite already being big. Very impressive.

Interesting Austin gets attention but its numbers are sort of Meh. Denver seems to be way ahead with a downtown half the size and 3 times as dense.

Denver Downtown ---------------------- 15,198 ------- 7,998 ------ 4,181 ------ 2,795 ---- 90.0% ---- 91.3% --- 49.6% ------- 2.3 km² --- 6,736.7 inh./km²

[dlg569]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

Downtown Washington




-------------------------------- 2020 ------ 2010 ------ 2000 ------ 1990 ------ Growth ------ Density

Downtown --------------------- 30,279 ----- 27,025 ----- 18,704 ----- 17,457 ---- 12.0% ---- 44.5% ---- 7.1% ------ 11.0 km² --- 2,743.7 inh./km²

Georgetown -------------------- 13,603 ----- 14,231 ----- 12,991 ----- 12,181 ---- -4.4% ----- 9.5% ---- 6.6% ------- 3.2 km² --- 4,268.3 inh./km²

Washington DC --------------- 689,545 ---- 601,723 ---- 572,059 ---- 606,900 ---- 14.6% ----- 5.2% --- -5.7% ----- 158.3 km² --- 4,355.9 inh./km²

Arlington-Alexandria-F.C. ---- 412,768 ---- 359,925 ---- 328,113 ---- 291,697 ---- 14.7% ----- 9.7% --- 12.5% ----- 111.3 km² --- 3,708.3 inh./km²

Washington Metro Area ----- 6,105,431 -- 5,388,326 -- 4,635,194 -- 3,997,373 ---- 13.3% ---- 16.2% --- 16.0% -- 12,403 km²


Washington Downtown is very different from everything. Firstly, the Mall and Potomac Park takes half of it (1 census tract). The other 10 census tracts comprise Foggy Bottom and everything between the Massachusetts Avenue and the Mall. As this region is full of big government offices, embassies, hotels, it's hard to make any assumption about its residential population trends.

As bonus, I brought Georgetown, formed by 4 census tracts.

I don't agree with your boundaries of downtown DC. I think you have to include everything in the original L'Enfant Plan, or at least most of it, as "downtown" That means West to East you need to include Georgetown to the Anacostia River (encompassing Capitol Hill neighborhood), and South to North Navy Yard to NoMa / Florida Ave. That would dramatically change these numbers.

[Lobotomizer]

Originally Posted by dktshb

Interesting Austin gets attention but its numbers are sort of Meh. Denver seems to be way ahead with a downtown half the size and 3 times as dense.

Denver Downtown ---------------------- 15,198 ------- 7,998 ------ 4,181 ------ 2,795 ---- 90.0% ---- 91.3% --- 49.6% ------- 2.3 km² --- 6,736.7 inh./km²

7,352 of Austin's downtown population lives in two census tracts, 11.02 and 11.03, with a total area of 1.3 square kilometers. That's 5,655.4 inh./sqkm. Lower downtown along the riverfront is where most of the residential buildings are located.

And as stated previously, there are a couple thousand more in tract 12 that is very much downtown in an extremely small area not included in these numbers.

I'd estimate close to 10,000 downtown residents live in the area bound by 6th St., I-35, the Colorado River, and Lamar Blvd., an area no bigger than 1.5 square kilometers or so.

And Austin is still building a lot of new towers. Like a whole lot. Check back in about ten years and see how we're looking.

Until then, I think we're doing pretty well. Glad to see Denver is as well.