[St. John's] Transport development (Highways, Airport, and Public Transit)

[D-Hop Supreme]

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

I don't think someone who lives off Barter's Hill is a good example for assessing the feasibility of biking. Walking is definitely the best option for you. But that's also anecdotal. If you live in Cowan Heights, Waterford Valley, East End, Kilbride, Pleasantvile, etc - biking would be a better option than walking, for example.

And I know you're not intentionally making cyclists second-class citizens. But that's what you're doing. You're saying, well you're not a priority. Your transport mode is not a priority. Cars are more important and so is parking. You're engaging a process of deprioritization. Proof: "We only have so much room on Water Street and we have to make the best use of it." Cycling isn't the best use?

Cycling has endless benefits. Every single person that opts to cycle instead of drive will make a high-profile bike lane worth it.

I think you're forgetting the fact that this is St. John's, a place where people really can only bike for a few months before having to pack it away, while in other large cities the cycling season is long enough for it to work. If they'll only cycle for 6 months a year, per say, cycling becomes an absolute waste of space.

As well, I'd like to just say that no, cycling certainly is not the best use for the room we have on water street. It's packed as is and I can't imagine trying to realize any of the plans you've created, though it would be great. Just too idealistic in this case.

[Copes]

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

Montreal has a phenomenal biking network. Phenomenal. The perfect mix of commuting lanes and recreational lanes. Traffic-separated lanes and road-separated lanes. You really don't need lanes everywhere. You just need a couple main arteries that will bring you in and out of major destinations (much like rapid transit).

Definitely. My favorite thing my girlfriend and I did last summer was bike around Montreal. We had a limited amount of time before we had to leave on the last day, and had a few things left we wanted to do. The girl at the front desk of our hotel said there was no way we were going to get to do it all. Cabs were going to be costly and we simply couldn't walk it. We decided to hoof it to one or two of the locations and scratch the rest.

On route we saw those rental bikes, and I just said "What do you think? Want to try this?" She agreed.

It was my first experience with bike systems like that. It was also my first experience with proper bike lanes. As I said, it was SUCH a good time. We both absolutely loved it. Not only did we get to do EVERYTHING on our list, but we got to see a lot of the city that we wouldn't have walked to, and we had an absolute BLAST while doing it.

I loved Montreal's bike system. It was fantastic. It's the only one I have experience with, but it set my standards very high. Which is why I think St. John's current "system" is a joke. However, seeing as few bikers as I do, and seeing the city layout as I do... I just struggle to wonder if it would catch on here, even with a system similar to Montreal's.

I like your enthusiasm. I'm just wondering if it would work. Certainly some roots would be easier than others (Pleasantville to Downtown, Kilbride to downtown) but others would be completely unusable.

I don't know what a bike lift is? Help?

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by D-Hop Supreme

I think you're forgetting the fact that this is St. John's, a place where people really can only bike for a few months before having to pack it away, while in other large cities the cycling season is long enough for it to work. If they'll only cycle for 6 months a year, per say, cycling becomes an absolute waste of space.

As well, I'd like to just say that no, cycling certainly is not the best use for the room we have on water street. It's packed as is and I can't imagine trying to realize any of the plans you've created, though it would be great. Just too idealistic in this case.

Have you ever been to Montreal? There is loads of snow which is a huge hurdle to cycling. It starts snowing in Montreal in November and stops in April. How is that different from us? YET, Montreal has, perhaps, the highest rates of cycling in the country, if not the continent. It's not a waste of space there? And even then, I bike in the winter in Montreal, on clear days when asphalt is exposed. You can also get winter tires, if you're really committed. I would estimate that Montreal has fewer asphalt-visible days in the winter than St.John's. And you don't really "pack away" your bike. Mine is in my hallway 12-months per year, ready to go.

(This is why people who don't bike shouldn't try to plan bike-lanes)

Haha you can't imagine realizing a bus/tram route that could alleviate all of the parking concerns in the downtown? haha Only with that intervention, did I propose bike-lanes on water street, because you would free up a bunch of space.

It's not idealistic. It's creative. What's your proposal for diversifying transport modes in the downtown and addressing the parking crisis?

I think sacrificing two on-street parking lanes is pretty modest.

[Copes]

Originally Posted by D-Hop Supreme

I think you're forgetting the fact that this is St. John's, a place where people really can only bike for a few months before having to pack it away, while in other large cities the cycling season is long enough for it to work. If they'll only cycle for 6 months a year, per say, cycling becomes an absolute waste of space.

As well, I'd like to just say that no, cycling certainly is not the best use for the room we have on water street. It's packed as is and I can't imagine trying to realize any of the plans you've created, though it would be great. Just too idealistic in this case.

I wouldn't go that far to the extreme either though. The one way street frees up an entire lane. If we get rid of parking on one side (or both as Jane suggests) that frees up a pile more space. Trams would absolutely be doable. Sidewalk widening would be as well.

I think his plan is very possible. If that's what we are debating I'm going to have to agree with Jane. It's doable. It could work. I'm just trying to be sold on whether or not the bike-lane aspect is worth it.

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by Copes

I like your enthusiasm. I'm just wondering if it would work. Certainly some roots would be easier than others (Pleasantville to Downtown, Kilbride to downtown) but others would be completely unusable.

I don't know what a bike lift is? Help?

Honestly, 15 years ago, hardly anyone biked in Montreal. It wasn't much different than here. There were a few die-hards (just like there are in SJ). But then the City started to heavily invest in cycling infrastructure and boom - the movement started. In the span of 10 years, cycling exploded in the City. Believe it or not, this was not part of regular Montrealer's lifestyles until recently.

I am very optimistic about these types of projects. It's the type of thing that requires investment. A lot like transit. It's overwhelmingly frustrating to deal with so much opposition when you mention cycling. haha

Bike lifts are a Norwegian designed innovation that are actually quite simple. They are like convey-belts installed next to a curb. With a machine at the bottom that you put like 25-50cents into, or in some cases, just push a button. A peddle comes out (not too different from a bicycle peddle). You put your foot on it and it rolls you, and your bike, up the hill.





• Video Link

The video won't work, i don't think - here it is: TRAMPE THE BICYCLE LIFT

"There is no doubt that Trampe has inspired students as well as other people living in Trondheim to take to their bicycles. In a user survey, 41 % of the lift users claim they are using the bicycle more often due to the installation of Trampe."

http://www.trampe.no/english/

Keep in mind - this isn't sophisticated German engineering, haha - it's quite simple, mechanically. B'ys at Mun-engineering could fix 'er up right quick I'm sure.

[cam477]

I've been away on vacation for a while and don't have time to fully catch up and respond now.

But I'll say this... I've cycled in San Fran and Vancouver. Our hills may be just as steep but our hills have nothing on San Fran. Those cities with their wet, crapy, rainy climates and hills that put ours to shame, have invested in cycling and the citizens have embraced it.

I'll read back through the posts tonight when I get home and maybe add more.

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by cam477

I've been away on vacation for a while and don't have time to fully catch up and respond now.

But I'll say this... I've cycled in San Fran and Vancouver. Our hills may be just as steep but our hills have nothing on San Fran. Those cities with their wet, crapy, rainy climates and hills that put ours to shame, have invested in cycling and the citizens have embraced it.

I'll read back through the posts tonight when I get home and maybe add more.

Wahoooooo. Exactly. Investment precedes ridership! The same is true for transit!

[ed0797]

Not to go against anyone's opinions here, but I can say that almost any bicycling in St.John's is pretty much pointless. Downtown is our only culture center, no one's ever going to start biking to the most popular places like Kenmount or Stavanger. So downtown is a non-athlete bikers only option; plus no ones going down there to get to an office. Majority of the people that work in offices down there, have suburban homes and live outside the city center.They don't live in the downtown region, so you'd literally have to bike for an hour(s) to get there.

Except if you lived in Cowan Heights, that place has a great way to get DOWN there, but not back up. The only sane way to get back up there would be Hamilton Av. and then branching off onto Topsail and Blackmarsh. Once you get there it's hills, hills and more hills. That isn't feasible for anyone.So why would the city invest millions of dollars (which we don't have) into a big network, just to get some people to bike into downtown?

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by ed0797

Not to go against anyone's opinions here, but I can say that almost any bicycling in St.John's is pretty much pointless. Downtown is our only culture center, no one's ever going to start biking to the most popular places like Kenmount or Stavanger. So downtown is a non-athlete bikers only option; plus no ones going down there to get to an office. Majority of the people that work in offices down there, have suburban homes and live outside the city center.They don't live in the downtown region, so you'd literally have to bike for an hour(s) to get there.

Except if you lived in Cowan Heights, that place has a great way to get DOWN there, but not back up. The only sane way to get back up there would be Hamilton Av. and then branching off onto Topsail and Blackmarsh. Once you get there it's hills, hills and more hills. That isn't feasible for anyone.

I think you're off-base. Hills are a barrier, they are not an impasse (as has been mentioned with reference to San Francisco and Vancouver as examples).

If we had better transit (like most of these cycling cities do) then you could quickly and easily slide your bike on to a bus, tram or train. I often use the Metro and buses in Montreal with my bike. I also use trams and buses often in Brussels with my bike, because they are low-rise and flush with the curb so you just roll in. That could be one way of dealing with hilly portions of the City, as well as bike-lifts.

I have biked around minimally in St.John's, but not much. And it's really not that bad... The big hills downtown for instance are horrible (no one denies it). But Topsail, Empire, Elizabeth, Kenmount, Waterford Bridge, Hamilton, Military, Lemarchant, even Freshwater and King's Bridge aren't bad whatsoever. You could get downtown many ways that don't require many hills, or with modest hills only.

If I lived in the centre city, I would be able to easily bike to MUN, CNA, Confed. building, either Mall... Even though downtown is the 'cultural centre' it doesn't make it the only place where you would bother biking... People won't bike in those areas because there aren't bike lanes and thus, it's dangerous. If there was a safe way to bike from Cowan Heights along Topsail Road to Downtown, I'm sure people would do it.

Stories of hillier cities (San Francisco), snowier cities (Montreal), rainier cities (Vancouver, Amsterdam) prove that our geography is less of a problem. The problem is with attitudes. Geography cannot be changed. Attitudes can be.

Originally Posted by ed0797

So why would the city invest millions of dollars (which we don't have) into a big network, just to get some people to bike into downtown?

Haha, I have NO clue why you think the City has no money. The City has more money now than it has EVER had. Municipal revenues are driven by property taxes. Properties are more expensive than ever, thus revenues are bigger than ever. That, paired with private investment into the City, makes this the perfect time to do such an investment.

I also don't think you should underestimate the benefits of getting people on to bikes. Transit has enormous benefits. Cycling has even more. Moreover, transit and cycling are co-dependant in many ways and promote each other in a symbiotic way.

[mrjanejacobs]

THIS DAY IN HISTORY WITH JIM FURLONG: STREET CARS

Zomg. Street cars.

Really amazing footage with the perspective of being on the street car. The activity of pedestrians and carriages is really cool.

Apparently the trams went up Holloway Street to Duckworth, I have no clue how though, haha, Holloway is hardly big enough for one car these day.

[jeddy1989]

I love today in history and look at those impressive buildings in the end of the video!

[ed0797]

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

I think you're off-base. Hills are a barrier, they are not an impasse (as has been mentioned with reference to San Francisco and Vancouver as examples).

If we had better transit (like most of these cycling cities do) then you could quickly and easily slide your bike on to a bus, tram or train. I often use the Metro and buses in Montreal with my bike. I also use trams and buses often in Brussels with my bike, because they are low-rise and flush with the curb so you just roll in. That could be one way of dealing with hilly portions of the City, as well as bike-lifts.

Stories of hillier cities (San Francisco), snowier cities (Montreal), rainier cities (Vancouver, Amsterdam) prove that our geography is less of a problem. The problem is with attitudes. Geography cannot be changed. Attitudes can be.

Haha, I have NO clue why you think the City has no money. The City has more money now than it has EVER had. Municipal revenues are driven by property taxes. Properties are more expensive than ever, thus revenues are bigger than ever. That, paired with private investment into the City, makes this the perfect time to do such an investment.

I also don't think you should underestimate the benefits of getting people on to bikes. Transit has enormous benefits. Cycling has even more. Moreover, transit and cycling are co-dependant in many ways and promote each other in a symbiotic way.

I agree with you on a lot of things, it'd be great to have people riding bikes! After all more bikes = less traffic, that's better for everyone. Another form, or just better transit would be a blessing in the city!

I actually don't have much of an argument against almost you said haha, I think the biggest problem for the city will be to get the ridership up. When you create a movement people follow, but it'll take a long while to get the city to the point where we have the infrastructure to support a network like that. We'll need more than the metrobus that for sure!

As you mentioned it seems money isn't a problem either, I guess the provincial budget just had me in the mindset that no place in the province had an excess of funds.

[jeddy1989]

This is how you have to see things as well

ok we've identified how we WANT somehting to look and what's the best thing for the city .. ok

now we have to realize that we can't just flick a switch .. it costs money and it takes time and there's more variables such as the people who may not see the light at the end of the tunnel right away and realize that these are the people that elect the ones who make desicion so you have to look at how will this be implimented?
it is a council of a group of people so ok you get one that's VERY gun ho for doing this .. then you get the businesses on water street protesting and going to the media about how all the construction is causing havoc for business and that there will be no parking on the street for people to pop in and pick something up or drop off papers at a law office etc. in their eyes "wasting money and hurting local business" in THEIR eyes

so we have to see what will be the best way to get to our goal ... because if one Councillor wants to look better to the public than the one trying to get this program going, they will protest it and add to any public discontent .. so it's not as simple as saying oh yes this is the best way -GO! lol

how do we implement this? and what's the best way to go about it and how will the public react and take to it ... and if they don't realize the good of it then how do we do it in a way that they can see it?

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by ed0797

I agree with you on a lot of things, it'd be great to have people riding bikes! After all more bikes = less traffic, that's better for everyone. Another form, or just better transit would be a blessing in the city!

I actually don't have much of an argument against almost you said haha, I think the biggest problem for the city will be to get the ridership up. When you create a movement people follow, but it'll take a long while to get the city to the point where we have the infrastructure to support a network like that. We'll need more than the metrobus that for sure!

As you mentioned it seems money isn't a problem either, I guess the provincial budget just had me in the mindset that no place in the province had an excess of funds.

Haha well, money is always a problem! However, St.John's is right now the envy of the country in many ways. The provincial government is abysmally administrated and managed and provincial GDP is stagnant. But St.John's is another story. Point being, St. John's can afford large investments now more than ever (as in, the money is there, it's a matter of political will to decide how it will be spent).

Ridership is always the problem. But the only way to get it up (for transit AND cycling) is to invest in it with solid, long-term plans. It's really that simple.

[ed0797]

Originally Posted by jeddy1989

This is how you have to see things as well

ok we've identified how we WANT somehting to look and what's the best thing for the city .. ok

now we have to realize that we can't just flick a switch .. it costs money and it takes time and there's more variables such as the people who may not see the light at the end of the tunnel right away and realize that these are the people that elect the ones who make desicion so you have to look at how will this be implimented?
it is a council of a group of people so ok you get one that's VERY gun ho for doing this .. then you get the businesses on water street protesting and going to the media about how all the construction is causing havoc for business and that there will be no parking on the street for people to pop in and pick something up or drop off papers at a law office etc. in their eyes "wasting money and hurting local business" in THEIR eyes

so we have to see what will be the best way to get to our goal ... because if one Councillor wants to look better to the public than the one trying to get this program going, they will protest it and add to any public discontent .. so it's not as simple as saying oh yes this is the best way -GO! lol

how do we implement this? and what's the best way to go about it and how will the public react and take to it ... and if they don't realize the good of it then how do we do it in a way that they can see it?

Pshh government who needs that! All it is is TIME TIME TIME. I'm ready to go paint a few lanes and set a few tracks right now! Who's with me?!

[jeddy1989]

Originally Posted by ed0797

Pshh government who needs that! All it is is TIME TIME TIME. I'm ready to go paint a few lanes and set a few tracks right now! Who's with me?!

hahahahha lets go! I'm sure they have some supplies lying around the city depot, we'll swing by there first!

[Architype]

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

Haha well, money is always a problem! However, St.John's is right now the envy of the country in many ways. The provincial government is abysmally administrated and managed and provincial GDP is stagnant. But St.John's is another story. Point being, St. John's can afford large investments now more than ever (as in, the money is there, it's a matter of political will to decide how it will be spent).

Having more money means you can make more expensive mistakes.

[mrjanejacobs]

Jeddy - I totally agree.

Large projects like this would require careful political calculations. It also underscores the troubles caused by having polarized City councils. Because one side will antagonize the other for political gain, and for nothing else.

With that said, there have been Mayors and councillors in some cities that have had profound impacts on the direction of a City. Because they said from the get-go: "f**k this, I am not going to seek re-election, I am going to push, push, push a strong proposal until it is realized" - oftentimes, these politicians are, ironically, reelected. haha Unfortunately, these types of characters are pretty rare. It's also why I really look for passion and vision in a councillor. Someone with convictions and values rather than laissez-faire governance.

There is also lots of things you can do in advance to get your ducks in order: adequate studying: costs estimates, environmental impacts studies, feasibility studies, market studies, economic impact studies. If you have proof to support your convictions - it's hard to argue them. So timing is also key - you really don't want to prematurely make a large proposal. Hastiness can kill a political career, haha.

You can be much more persuasive if you know what you're talking about AND you have research to back it up. If a councillor had a vision and worked in cooperation during the study and design phase, their proposal could have some legs to stand on.

[AnUrbanLife]

Hey all- Glad to see some discussion about cycling, I have few comments.

I am an avid cyclist and would love St. John's to invest in a city wide network. Here are some reasons why it wouldn't be a waste of money:

I currently cycle most days here in Southern Ontario for my daily life, the winters here are colder than in St.John's but I still get around 9-10 months of biking. Many people here bike year round, they just dress for it and winterize their bikes. (studded tires etc.) Only heavy snow would stop biking in St.John's, so you could easily get 9-10 months there as well.

Keep in mind that it isn't just to commute to work or just for exercise but for all of the places you would go to in a car. So yes downtown is a big one but also going to the grocery store, going to bowering park or bannerman or quidi vidi, going to various entertainments etc. Once you start using a bike for daily life the number of destinations and errands are more than enough to justify the expense.

The amount of money I save is significant, so much so that I'm able to take an extra vacation every year, if I was so inclined.

But those aren't the best reason to invest in cycling, number one is our health care system.

It is great to live in a country with our health care system, but we all know that it isn't cheap and at times is strained and is soaking up an ever greater percentage of GDP. Active infrastructure is the best tool we have to ensure our system of health care survives into the future.

Every dollar invested into active infrastructure, like cycling, has been shown to save at least 2 dollars in health care costs, in many northern European countries the savings have been demonstrated to be much greater.

In sum, the argument that the climate or the terrain in St. John's would make investment in cycling a waste of money can no longer hold up to any amount of scrutiny. Other cities with worse climates and harsher terrain have proved it and the savings to our health care system are to great to ignore.

Save public heath care invest in cycling.

[SignalHillHiker]

Well, O.K.

I accept that cycling could be a greater success here than I initially believed and stated.

That said...

Must the lanes be on Water Street? Can't they be on Harbour Drive, or Duckworth?

I'd love to see us create a proper main street with GIANT sidewalks on Water Street.

Would be willing to go a block north or south of Water to bike?