Highways in Canada

[SteelTown]

Do Quebec add more stones to their asphalt? Everytime I drive to the Maritimes I immediately know I've entered Quebec when the roads are more bumpy. Then it's ecstasy when I hit New Brunswick where the roads are always smooth.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by habfanman

And what if car owners were to have to pay the true cost of their subsidies? The few cents of chump change that are tossed at public transit are nothing compared to the 100's of billions that we pay to keep drivers on the road. The few cents of gas tax that are diverted to public transit only increase the amount that drivers are being subsidized. That it comes as a gas tax makes it look as if drivers are paying for transit when in fact we're only paying more to subsidize drivers. How ridiculous.

Once again you've spilled a bucket of drivel all over the table without offering any statistics or government sources to back up your claims. Where are these 100s of billions of dollars in road subsidies? As far as I know, I don't get one fucking cent from the government to keep my car on the road. Furthermore, please explain your reasoning: is the gas tax some sort of conspiracy to prevent drivers from realizing that their transport is paid by a minority of the population? How does a subsidy increase the amount that drivers are being subsidized?

Originally Posted by habfanman

What if all TTC and GO users, STM and AMT users suddenly flooded the roads? How many mega billions of dollars would we have to pay to expand highways, parking facilities.. deal with the resulting environmental and public health issues?

So urban centres function best with a diverse combination of transport modes to suit different needs. Your point?

Originally Posted by habfanman

You should spend some time in cities where roads and parking lots don't dominate the scenery. Cities where fast and efficient transit make car ownership an expensive luxury rather than a necessity. Cities that aren't stuck in a 1950's frame of mind. Cities that aren't London ON.

And you think Montreal is one of these world-class cities? What a joke! Last time I checked, Montreal only had 69 kilometers of subway track for a city of 3.5 million. Still not as pathetic as Toronto, but on a world scale it's smalltime. London, England fits the bill of an efficient, modern transit-based city far better. Even Lisbon, Portugal beats the shit out of our two largest urban areas when it comes to BOTH urban freeways and mass transit. Montreal, like its arch-rival Toronto, is pathetic.

I have a feeling I'm being trolled, and very successfully at that.

[Wharn]

Here I may as well post my sources:

For the TTC: http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commiss...mentary_Reports/2012_TTC_OPERATING_B.pdf

For the STM: http://www.stm.info/en-bref/budget2009.pdf

And for the hell of it, the LTC: http://www.ltconline.ca/agendas/011211viii1.pdf

Please show me, in these budgets, where transit users are paying for road improvements. At best, everyone ends up paying for their own mode of transport in economic terms. At worst, drivers are subsidizing transit users.

[haljackey]

Highway 401 overlooking Bayview (?), Toronto

At dusk:


At night:


Via Wikimedia Commons

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Wharn

Please show me, in these budgets, where transit users are paying for road improvements. At best, everyone ends up paying for their own mode of transport in economic terms. At worst, drivers are subsidizing transit users.

Tranist users pay for road improvements through property taxes. You do realize that the lions share of municipal budgets in canada are derived from property taxes, right? It's a general fund which pays for anything not Provincially subsidized in a city, which in Toronto's case means the Gardiner and DVP.

And gas taxes aren't automatically funded back into road infrastructure... it doesn't really work that way.

[telyou]

Can people stop assuming that the gas tax (spent by drivers only obviously) is spent only on road infrastructure and that it is actually enough to cover the cost of infrastructure.
When will Ontario understand that road tolls are needed, no ifs no buts.
Also a Canada wide public transit policy needs to be put in place.
The country is growing rapidly and all government levels have done little to address the issue.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Wharn

I think it's clear that the real situation is that motorists end up indirectly subsidizing transit users through property and gasoline taxes.

And people without cars don't pay property taxes? Why would that be? Do they get some kind of exemption?

Just being facetious. So are you suggesting that a higher proportion of car-owners pay property taxes? That is probably true. Is the insinuation that people without cars that rent ought to at least buy a house or condo in order to pull their own weight?

You do realize that rented properties have owners who pay property taxes, do you not? Or are you suggesting that renters should have less say in municipal matters because they don't pay property taxes directly?

Every single renter represents a property for which property taxes are paid. You do understand this, do you not?

[ciudad_del_norte]

I think within many governments across the country there is a realization that toll roads are inevitable at some point. But it is also a political nightmare... so it will probably be avoided until the most desperate moment. Not many people realize the insane amounts of money that goes into roadway infrastructure, construction and maintanence.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Every single renter represents a property for which property taxes are paid. You do understand this, do you not?

I think everyone is aware that landlords pay property taxes on their holdings, but that was not my point. Using Toronto as an example AGAIN, just because nobody cares about anywhere else:

Transit budget for the year 2010 was $1.3 billion, roadworks budget in 2007 was $230 million. Now according to Statscan (2006) the percentage of commuters who arrived at work using transit was 22.2%, while the number of people driving as a percentage of commuters was 71.1%. This includes people using GO Transit as well as a number of shitty feeder systems in the region. Years need not line up, we're just getting a rough idea.

Assume similar numbers in the City of Toronto. 31% ($440 million) of the TTC's operating budget came from subsidies in 2010. This subsidy alone, only for operations, is almost double what the road budget was. There is no way that 22% of the population, when paying similar property taxes, could fund this. The numbers don't add up: at best, each person pays for their own ride out of their own pocket. At worst, and this is what I suspect to be the case, drivers are subsidizing transit users. Since Toronto has one of the highest transit usage rates on the continent, I suspect the deal is similar elsewhere.

Sources:

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/204281

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2008/03/04/car-toronto.html

Originally Posted by ciudad_del_norte

I think within many governments across the country there is a realization that toll roads are inevitable at some point. But it is also a political nightmare... so it will probably be avoided until the most desperate moment. Not many people realize the insane amounts of money that goes into roadway infrastructure, construction and maintanence.

Personally I think road tolls are a fantastic idea, as they allocate scarce resources to those who value them the most. Free Highways suffer from congestion partially because nobody is forced to consider how much their time is worth.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by rousseau

And people without cars don't pay property taxes? Why would that be? Do they get some kind of exemption?

True, but people without cars benefit hugely from the existence of roads, by which goods are supplied, garbage is picked up, emergency services are delivered, etc. (and which also accommodate bicycles and buses). So why wouldn't they be called upon to pay their share of the bill for roads? I should say "we" since I am a carless person.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Wharn

Transit budget for the year 2010 was $1.3 billion, roadworks budget in 2007 was $230 million. Now according to Statscan (2006) the percentage of commuters who arrived at work using transit was 22.2%, while the number of people driving as a percentage of commuters was 71.1%. This includes people using GO Transit as well as a number of shitty feeder systems in the region. Years need not line up, we're just getting a rough idea.

I think you would do better to compare the portion of the transit budget dedicated to upgrades, repairs and maintenance and compare that to roadwork. If you're going to compare transit budgets to roads budgets, you have to include everything from roadwork to snow plowing, street sweeping, the salaries of all the employees involved, and so on, in that budget, to get a more accurate picture. And when you do that, you find that the roads cost about the same.

But then look at effectiveness, too. Sure, about a fifth of the buses are almost never used. But about 75% of the street miles are almost never used, either. All those suburban side streets that the city has to sweep every spring and plow every winter probably cost far more money to maintain than they bring in. A couple years ago the intersection near my house was the location of a sink hole. The repairs cost more than all of the road taxes from the properties along the two streets, when considering labour and materials involved.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Andy6

True, but people without cars benefit hugely from the existence of roads, by which goods are supplied, garbage is picked up, emergency services are delivered, etc. (and which also accommodate bicycles and buses). So why wouldn't they be called upon to pay their share of the bill for roads? I should say "we" since I am a carless person.

But hold on...I don't have ready access to the numbers, but it's people in single-occupancy cars in North America who place the most stress upon the roads, not the garbage trucks and the delivery vans.

And hold on again...how exactly are carless people not paying their fair share?

[vid]

You don't need roads all over the place to supply goods. You certainly don't need a 10m+ wide road to every single door in the city.

[rousseau]

Wharn, thanks for the numbers. Think about it this way: car drivers might possibly complain that they're subsidizing transit, but what if there weren't any transit at all? That would make life a living hell for car drivers.

You could look at transit as a pressure-release valve for transportation, because without it you'd have way too many people trying to drive around in cars. It seems to me that better transit would mean a better pressure-release valve.

[vid]

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Wharn, thanks for the numbers. Think about it this way: car drivers might possibly complain that they're subsidizing transit, but what if there weren't any transit at all? That would make life a living hell for car drivers.

You could look at transit as a pressure-release valve for transportation, because without it you'd have way too many people trying to drive around in cars. It seems to me that better transit would mean a better pressure-release valve.

I can't find anything here I would disagree with. Again, I never said that subsidizing transit was inherently bad, just that it was most likely happening right now. Any sizeable urban centre would need a mixture of roads and transit to efficiently serve the entire population. European and Asian cities, despite being "transit-oriented", both seem to generally follow this type of planning.

Originally Posted by vid

I think you would do better to compare the portion of the transit budget dedicated to upgrades, repairs and maintenance and compare that to roadwork. If you're going to compare transit budgets to roads budgets, you have to include everything from roadwork to snow plowing, street sweeping, the salaries of all the employees involved, and so on, in that budget, to get a more accurate picture. And when you do that, you find that the roads cost about the same.

That's a good point. However, I would not include street sweeping as any access lane eventually has to be cleaned and maintained by the city to avoid debris buildup and spread of disease. I would imagine that it's much more efficient to clean roads with streetsweepers than clean alleyways by hand. There is also overlap when it comes to snow removal for roads. Both private commuters and public transit users receive benefits from clear roadways. Come to think of it, users of surface routes also benefit from roads that are well-maintained... and everyone benefits from an efficient road network that can move goods around cheaply and predictably... this is becoming a lot more complicated than I previously assumed.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Wharn

And you think Montreal is one of these world-class cities? What a joke! Last time I checked, Montreal only had 69 kilometers of subway track for a city of 3.5 million. Still not as pathetic as Toronto, but on a world scale it's smalltime. London, England fits the bill of an efficient, modern transit-based city far better. Even Lisbon, Portugal beats the shit out of our two largest urban areas when it comes to BOTH urban freeways and mass transit. Montreal, like its arch-rival Toronto, is pathetic.

We are not in Europe. Compare Montréal and Toronto public transit systems to other North-American cities and we do pretty well.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by Wharn

As far as I know, I don't get one fucking cent from the government to keep my car on the road.

No, but those roads are paid for by government subsidies. The vast majority of the Ontario road system is owned by municipalities and paid for by property taxes.

Transit is what allows cities to grow and densify. Downtown Toronto's financial district, with the immense wealth that it generates for the country, couldn't exist without mass transit and the buses that feed it. And I'd argue that it's being held back by an inadequate transit system.

Originally Posted by vid

If you're going to compare transit budgets to roads budgets, you have to include everything from roadwork to snow plowing, street sweeping, the salaries of all the employees involved, and so on, in that budget, to get a more accurate picture. And when you do that, you find that the roads cost about the same.

Police and ambulances aren't cheap either.

Originally Posted by ToxiK

We are not in Europe. Compare Montréal and Toronto public transit systems to other North-American cities and we do pretty well.

That's setting your standards pretty low. When it comes to transit ridership Toronto is just as much like Europe as North America. And with proper investment it could be even more so.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Wharn

However, I would not include street sweeping as any access lane eventually has to be cleaned and maintained by the city to avoid debris buildup and spread of disease.

Then let's exclude the cleaning of city buses from the public transit budget in our comparison.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Mister F

That's setting your standards pretty low. When it comes to transit ridership Toronto is just as much like Europe as North America. And with proper investment it could be even more so.

Our direct competitors are in North America and were not doing to bad compare to them. That doesn't mean that we should not improve our public transit systems, on the contrary. That just mean that we should take the small lead we have compare to our competitor, invest to improve our systems and leave our competitors eat our dust.