Bayshore Shopping Centre Expansion | 250000 sq ft | U/C

[1overcosc]

Indoor malls are a dying breed. Suburban folks seem to like strip malls/plazas & power centres more, and urban folks seem to like retail mainstreets more. And both groups are doing more online shopping.

The Rideau Centre is the only large indoor mall in the entire city that is doing great, really.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by canabiz

You can't compare Bayshore to Rideau, it will never have that location or stature but it will still be the biggest indoor mall in the West part of town, including the Valley, for many years to come.

I agree with Marshsparrow, the Centrum and Tanger Outlet certainly take away some traffic and the ongoing renos (almost done from what I understand) don't help either. Also don't forget that online shopping has really picked up in the past 10 years or so and that could have put a dent in shopping malls' bottom line.

A bunch of stores going out of business (not the mall's fault!) like Danier, Jacob's, Le Chateau, Mexx have compounded the issues...

During the 1990s, Bayshore (and St. Laurent) were the leading malls in Ottawa and the Rideau Centre was having some trouble...amazing how quickly things change.

Also in most cities near the size of Ottawa in the US, there is only one thriving mall/retail area these days which captures the entire region (while everything else is struggling).

[canabiz]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

During the 1990s, Bayshore (and St. Laurent) were the leading malls in Ottawa and the Rideau Centre was having some trouble...amazing how quickly things change.

Also in most cities near the size of Ottawa in the US, there is only one thriving mall/retail area these days which captures the entire region (while everything else is struggling).

It will be interesting to see what Melnyk and Co. will do with the CTC after the Sens relocate downtown. If they put in more retail, that would take away even more traffic from Bayshore.

Rideau has the advantage of being right downtown and a tourist hotspot as well. People who visit the city for a period of time (tourists, diplomats, international students etc) will almost always visit the Rideau first and foremost. Bayshore (and other malls) probably are not very high on their priorities.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by canabiz

It will be interesting to see what Melnyk and Co. will do with the CTC after the Sens relocate downtown. If they put in more retail, that would take away even more traffic from Bayshore.

Rideau has the advantage of being right downtown and a tourist hotspot as well. People who visit the city for a period of time (tourists, diplomats, international students etc) will almost always visit the Rideau first and foremost. Bayshore (and other malls) probably are not very high on their priorities.

In many (even most) other cities, though, the surviving mall is located nowhere near downtown - and in some cases, downtown malls are dying (look at Winnipeg, for example, and particularly similar US cities - very few have good retail downtown and most of them are historical centres).

[canabiz]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

In many (even most) other cities, though, the surviving mall is located nowhere near downtown - and in some cases, downtown malls are dying (look at Winnipeg, for example, and particularly similar US cities - very few have good retail downtown and most of them are historical centres).

Your points are well taken but full credit to Rideau who has made itself relevant and profitable. There have been some turnovers over the years (Eaton's, Sears etc) but the mall survived and looks to be doing quite well, judging by the financials.

I also hope Bayshore will turn it around. They have free parking, a number of stores that don't exist anywhere in the city (Desigual for example, although there is another one in Premium Outlet Montreal, 2 hours from here).

[YOWflier]

Are people so sure that Bayshore is struggling as much as they say it is? (anyone seen financials?)

Obviously the situation on the third level is pretty ugly, but we can't forget that there has been a fairly large recent expansion that is very close to, if not entire full and buzzing. They have many new stores and some exclusives to the City/Region.

[canabiz]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Are people so sure that Bayshore is struggling as much as they say it is? (anyone seen financials?)

Obviously the situation on the third level is pretty ugly, but we can't forget that there has been a fairly large recent expansion that is very close to, if not entire full and buzzing. They have many new stores and some exclusives to the City/Region.

According to the link below, Rideau Centre is grossing about $1,100 in sales per square foot while Bayshore's number is $700. I don't know what the retail industry benchmark is supposed to be but I am sure there will always be room for improvement.

Not sure how St-Laurent, Orleans and other local big malls are doing.

www.pressreader.com/canada/ottawa-business-journal/20160523/281535110222735

[acottawa]

I find bayshore parking to be a pain in the ass and transit access to be pretty mediocre.

I think it doesn't bayshore help that Rideau Centre has positioned itself as the main destination mall and st laurent has positioned itself as the main mid-market mall (and had the good sense to cancel their expansion plan) and that both will have LRT access way before Bayshore does.

[1overcosc]

Bayshore really dropped the ball on the parking situation.

One of the key advantages Bayshore has over Rideau is free parking. But with Bayshore's parking garage being a huge pain in the rear, they're weakening that advantage.

With Rideau, yes, you have to pay for parking, but it's really not that much, and parking is easier. 2 hours only costs $6, and someone spending hundreds of dollars at stores like Nordstrom is probably not going to care about paying $6 for parking. And the parking at Rideau is actually really easy; one time, I parked there on Christmas Eve, and even then, it was pretty easy to get in and out and to find a spot.

[TheGoods]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

During the 1990s, Bayshore (and St. Laurent) were the leading malls in Ottawa and the Rideau Centre was having some trouble...amazing how quickly things change.

Also in most cities near the size of Ottawa in the US, there is only one thriving mall/retail area these days which captures the entire region (while everything else is struggling).

In Canada, most of the top malls last year per sales per square footage are in the urban core:
http://www.retail-insider.com/retail-insider/2015/5/most-productive

[TheGoods]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Indoor malls are a dying breed. Suburban folks seem to like strip malls/plazas & power centres more, and urban folks seem to like retail mainstreets more. And both groups are doing more online shopping.

The Rideau Centre is the only large indoor mall in the entire city that is doing great, really.

In Canada, almost every major shopping centre have seen a expansion, not just Rideau Centre but Yorkdale, Sherway Gardens, Square One, Pacific Centre, Carefour Laval, Chinook Centre, West Edmonton Mall, etc…

What has changed is the local regional malls, these have been replaced with Power Centres but they never really provided much of a shopping experience, just the basic to meet the community needs, most or all of these regional malls had a super market attached, hair dresser, dry cleaner, shoe repair, pet store, etc… As store have grown in size, we now have super-sized super markets, pet shops, these stores did not fit into the shopping malls layout. In addition, to meet the square footage, it is much cheaper to build these super centres to allow stores such as Bed Bath and Beyond, JSKY, Walmart, Loblaws, Indigo Chapters, and Factory Stores. It is not that the suburban folks prefer a power centre or strip mall but to keep the cost of the square footage low, these large property developers such as Trinity and Smart Centre are building these power centre a lot more quickly and cheaply and passing the savings to the retailers. We as consumers have adapted since we wanted all these large format stores.

[kevinbottawa]

Originally Posted by SkeggsEggs

Bayshore still seems to be doing fairly well in my opinion. Aside from the old food court the third floor has certainly filled up, granted there still isn't much reason to go up there aside from people going to Starbucks/Walmart and a few other stores.

A few months ago I counted 12 spaces that were either empty or had a temporary tenant. Since then only a few more have permanent tenants, including Walmart. The third floor at Bayshore is terrible.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I find bayshore parking to be a pain in the ass and transit access to be pretty mediocre.

I think it doesn't bayshore help that Rideau Centre has positioned itself as the main destination mall and st laurent has positioned itself as the main mid-market mall (and had the good sense to cancel their expansion plan) and that both will have LRT access way before Bayshore does.

Really? St. Laurent to me is the little ghetto mall. The renovation brought it up to what the other malls were for the last 15 years. I hardly consider it the 'main mid-market mall'. It fairly busy, but it enjoys a great location and great transit access. The stores are small, the mall is small (the actual retail area is but a fraction of the total area of the mall), there are barely any unique or exclusive stores. I think they REALLY missed the boat by cancelling their expansion plan. I don't think many people go to St. Laurent to spend big money. It's a hangout mall, and a place to grab the basic, not high fashion.

[eltodesukane]

Originally Posted by Harley613

Really? St. Laurent to me is the little ghetto mall. The renovation brought it up to what the other malls were for the last 15 years. I hardly consider it the 'main mid-market mall'.

St. Laurent renovations have done nothing for me. The food court is worse than before, the cinema area is still dreadful. They changed the floor tiles, but who cares about that, really?

[YOWflier]

St. Laurent is clearly below Bayshore on the mall totem pole.

The parking garage at Bayshore is hideous, but people should adapt fairly easily with time. Numerous visits later and it's nowhere near as bad for me as it first was.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Harley613

Really? St. Laurent to me is the little ghetto mall. The renovation brought it up to what the other malls were for the last 15 years. I hardly consider it the 'main mid-market mall'. It fairly busy, but it enjoys a great location and great transit access. The stores are small, the mall is small (the actual retail area is but a fraction of the total area of the mall), there are barely any unique or exclusive stores. I think they REALLY missed the boat by cancelling their expansion plan. I don't think many people go to St. Laurent to spend big money. It's a hangout mall, and a place to grab the basic, not high fashion.

Not everyone can afford to shop at Nordstrom. Rideau Centre has carved out a great niche catering to the affluent (and the wannabes). St Laurent is presentable, is always packed, has limited vacancy (mostly on the office side) and offers stores and services catering to middle class and working class people in the city (probably the large majority). The expansion plan would have put it in direct competition with the Rideau Centre and would have made it completely out of place with the area.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Not everyone can afford to shop at Nordstrom. Rideau Centre has carved out a great niche catering to the affluent (and the wannabes). St Laurent is presentable, is always packed, has limited vacancy (mostly on the office side) and offers stores and services catering to middle class and working class people in the city (probably the large majority). The expansion plan would have put it in direct competition with the Rideau Centre and would have made it completely out of place with the area.

By the virtue of size alone it would have automatically become a competitor with Rideau Centre? You're not making any sense! St. Laurent did not have to go upscale by going larger, they just had to offer a better selection and a better experience for the shopper. Right now the mall seems busy, but a big part of that is the limited space. The main floor is around the size of Carlingwood. It's really not a big mall when you subtract the non-retail GLA. An expansion could have made it a destination. Right now it gets traffic because of it's location and easy access but it could have been so much more.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Harley613

By the virtue of size alone it would have automatically become a competitor with Rideau Centre? You're not making any sense! St. Laurent did not have to go upscale by going larger, they just had to offer a better selection and a better experience for the shopper. Right now the mall seems busy, but a big part of that is the limited space. The main floor is around the size of Carlingwood. It's really not a big mall when you subtract the non-retail GLA. An expansion could have made it a destination. Right now it gets traffic because of it's location and easy access but it could have been so much more.

They wanted to increase the size by about 40% to 113k square metres, there are only so many stores out there, and most of the mid-market ones already have operations at St. Laurent mall (or nearby at locations such as trainyards). To fill that kind of space they would have either had to go down market (try to attract a Giant Tiger, dollar stores, etc) or upmarket (putting them in competition with the Rideau Centre).

I think the expansion probably would have worked if they had proposed it earlier, but by the time they got around to it, trainyards and the Rideau Centre expansion were already in the pipeline and there wasn't a lot of room for St Laurent to deviate from its current (and apparently successful) niche.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by canabiz

According to the link below, Rideau Centre is grossing about $1,100 in sales per square foot while Bayshore's number is $700. I don't know what the retail industry benchmark is supposed to be but I am sure there will always be room for improvement.

Not sure how St-Laurent, Orleans and other local big malls are doing.

www.pressreader.com/canada/ottawa-business-journal/20160523/281535110222735

I think the all around average is around $600 per square foot based on what I had read a couple years ago.

I think St-Laurent has lost a lot of its base. It used to be the top choice for the francophone population on both sides of the river, but today, Les Promenades is far superior with trendy stores like Simons, H&M and Forever 21. Even Place d'Orleans has arguably taken a turn for the better compared to St-Laurent.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by eltodesukane

St. Laurent renovations have done nothing for me. The food court is worse than before, the cinema area is still dreadful. They changed the floor tiles, but who cares about that, really?

The one fast food restaurant that I like at St. Laurent is Bourbon Street Grill.