City Murder Rates

[animatedmartian]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Bah, the Martian is not a bad guy, but just one of those ultra proud Americans sometimes...

The thing is we do have some social ideal and some policies trying to stick to it here, which avoids lots of murders.

I wasn't trying to be proud. I just don't see the same criminal acts in America occurring in Europe and there's a lot of difference between the two. At least in this thread, I wasn't trying to make one sound superior over the other.

Originally Posted by SHiRO

I don't really care for people who make ignorant and arrogant posts like these:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...&postcount=105

Get corrected and still perpetuate the same bullshit on this forum years later. These people are not here to learn or to interact with others and make the forum an enjoyable place.

I can admit that my opinion was probably wrong, but that's no reason to hold a grudge over it.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by ChargerCarl

FYI, a lot of posters say the exact same about you.

It's not a lot, it's a couple. Those would be the trolls that have been left over when most of the forumers one would want to interact with have left the forum or dialed their involvement way back.

It's a pity you identify with the trolls. It's not too late for you yet, but you're definately on the wrong path if you think picking fights, posting flamebait op eds and generally posting in controversial threads instead of otherwise contributing to the forum is the way to go.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

I can admit that my opinion was probably wrong, but that's no reason to hold a grudge over it.

I can always appreciate if people change their opinions when faced with the facts or other informed opinions, but that post and the subsequent ones were some of the most inaccurate, ignorant and offensive I have ever read on this forum and that is saying a lot.

It's a pity you didn't recognise at the time that you can't hold such strong opinions based on nothing, but kudos to you if you really looked into these issues and interacted with knowledgable people and now have more realistic views. I just wish it happened on the forum in threads like that one and this one, but sadly threads here don't fulfill that function.

No grudge.

[ChargerCarl]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

It's not a lot, it's a couple. Those would be the trolls that have been left over when most of the forumers one would want to interact with have left the forum or dialed their involvement way back.

It's a pity you identify with the trolls. It's not too late for you yet, but you're definately on the wrong path if you think picking fights, posting flamebait op eds and generally posting in controversial threads instead of otherwise contributing to the forum is the way to go.

Originally Posted by SHiRO

I can always appreciate if people change their opinions when faced with the facts or other informed opinions, but that post and the subsequent ones were some of the most inaccurate, ignorant and offensive I have ever read on this forum and that is saying a lot.

It's a pity you didn't recognise at the time that you can't hold such strong opinions based on nothing, but kudos to you if you really looked into these issues and interacted with knowledgable people and now have more realistic views. I just wish it happened on the forum in threads like that one and this one, but sadly threads here don't fulfill that function.

No grudge.

This is why nobody likes you. You can't simply disagree with someone without being a condescending jerk. Anyone who posts something you don't like is a "troll."

[animatedmartian]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

If I read your post wrong then I apologize.

Considering your history it's understandable I read it like I read it though I think.

And if there's great diversity among US cities, how is that not the case in Europe? Helsinki, Athens, Bucharest, London, Berlin, etc etc all have very low murder rates.

But sure, access to guns as well as socio economic factors play a role. You can't use that as an excuse though.

The Canadian poster had made it seem as if one US city could fall in crime, then basically all US cities should have a fall in crime at the same time.

My thoughts were that European cities, as a continent, kind of seemed more similar to each other than if you just looked at each city relative to their respective countries?

Like, my assumption was that France (Paris) has a different economy than Germany (Berlin) however both are pretty similar being the capitals of their respective countries and typically being the center of finance in the region (and probably somewhat similar laws and ways of preventing crime but this I can admit I don't know).

In the US, there's many cities that have different economies, like NYC and Memphis, however NYC is the center of finance whereas Memphis is not. NYC has a very affluent metropolitan region whereas Memphis (compared to NYC) does not. This means NYC should have more resources to invest in crime prevention/control, have less people unemployed (or more services to support those unemployed), and so on. Basically, I didn't think of Europe as having cities that were vastly poorer than their primary cities (sort of what I meant by diversity). I don't know what would be the equivalent of Memphis to anywhere in Europe.

Therefore, for US cities, how could you have an initiative to lower crime in all cities when not all cities have the same situation?

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by ChargerCarl

This is why nobody likes you. You can't simply disagree with someone without being a condescending jerk. Anyone who posts something you don't like is a "troll."

OK enough of this bullshit. This is the City Murder thread.

I don't know of any other forums where you can get away with calling people condescending jerk or constantely picking fights and not be considered a troll but whatever...

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

The Canadian poster had made it seem as if one US city could fall in crime, then basically all US cities should have a fall in crime at the same time.

My thoughts were that European cities, as a continent, kind of seemed more similar to each other than if you just looked at each city relative to their respective countries?

Like, my assumption was that France (Paris) has a different economy than Germany (Berlin) however both are pretty similar being the capitals of their respective countries and typically being the center of finance in the region.

In the US, there's many cities that have different economies, like NYC and Memphis, however NYC is the center of finance whereas Memphis is not. NYC has a very affluent metropolitan region whereas Memphis (compared to NYC) does not. This means NYC should have more resources to invest in crime prevention/control, have less people unemployed (or more services to support those unemployed), and so on. Basically, I didn't think of Europe as having cities that were vastly poorer than their primary cities (sort of what I meant by diversity). I don't know what would be the equivalent of Memphis to anywhere in Europe.

What about cities in Eastern Europe that are transitioning and generally also have great wealth inequality but (the Baltics excluded) still low murder rates? Something else must be going on in those US cities with high murder rates. I would agree that it's not one cause or the same cause for every city. But I also think that not enough is done about it.

Therefore, for US cities, how could you have an initiative to lower crime in all cities when not all cities have the same situation?

Well, I think you take lessons learned elsewhere and apply them to the specific situation. One thing I'll never agree with is that it's all external causes and nothing can be done. "It is what it is..." No other city is like New York, but lessons learned there can be applied to Chicago, LA and even smaller cities as well.

[SlidellWx]

Very sad day here in New Orleans as former New Orleans Saints player Will Smith was killed in a road rage incident. This pushes the murder count for the year to 32.

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/...art_river_home

[dc_denizen]

What is going on in the baltics given their high murder rates? Estonia has a higher murder rate per capita than the us.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by ChargerCarl

This is why nobody likes you. You can't simply disagree with someone without being a condescending jerk. Anyone who posts something you don't like is a "troll."

You're just wrong. I like this guy. He is demanding, but I know he is legit to be so, so I'll just obey him.

[Tosin007]

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

US cities are diverse from each other. New Orleans =/= NYC. Memphis =/= San Diego.

All 4 cities have different economic and socioeconomic makeups. New Orleans especially has been struggling ever since its status as major port city and Memphis more or less suffered from deindustrialization. San Diego is made up of mostly suburban (and disjointed) neighborhoods and never really had that high of a homicide rate. New York is of course New York and unlike any other US cities so whatever caused homicide rates to fall there isn't guaranteed to work anywhere else.

The social aspect in the US that makes it different from Europe or Canada is how guns are a pretty big part of US culture and wealth inequality. Race falls in there somewhere (though it's more parallel to wealth inequality rather than a correlation), but generally, the formal two aspects are not very evident in Canadian or European culture.

But sure, if I'm wrong then be sure to enlighten me.

Your not wrong your absolutely right I think!

[Tosin007]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

What about cities in Eastern Europe that are transitioning and generally also have great wealth inequality but (the Baltics excluded) still low murder rates? Something else must be going on in those US cities with high murder rates. I would agree that it's not one cause or the same cause for every city. But I also think that not enough is done about it.


Well, I think you take lessons learned elsewhere and apply them to the specific situation. One thing I'll never agree with is that it's all external causes and nothing can be done. "It is what it is..." No other city is like New York, but lessons learned there can be applied to Chicago, LA and even smaller cities as well.

Your right not enough is done because Americans generally live in a Box.
(That doesn't mean I hate Americans or I believe all Americans are Ignorant of other countries). But generally speaking they are.
Americans won't do something about it because most Americans just haven't traveled outside of the U.S. America is all they know & love. When u live a "superpower" try humbling yourself to visit another country when ur own country has such an enormous population to begin with. With many vibrant & diverse cities in many different climate ranges.
Most Americans simply don't believe their is anywhere that is safer than America (which they live in & are patriotic about & love). Its only the odd time when an American does eventually travel that they realize this is not actually the case.
(Also it doesn't help that having such low vacation leave days/ benefits compared to many other European Countries & Even Canada, keeps most US traveler's & visits Domestic as opposed to International). As long as America/
Americans continue to believe that they are the greatest nation in the world, in every conceivable metric.
They will never humble themselves to understand that they could learn alot of good things from other countries as well.
Like Healthcare & Less Murders in general.
Canada is by no means perfect, it works for me & theirs alot of things I think my country could learn from other countries.
(Few of which are that negative but some still are). At least I can admit this though, try asking the average American to admit that
their country has a high murder rate or their healthcare is no good & watch for their response.
Its usually something like this. "It Only happens in certain sections of the city or its because of Gang Violence". Or "it doesn't affect the vast majority of
people". You notice Americans ALWAYS deflect & detract from what is actually taking place rather than saying, "it shouldn't be happening at all".
& even about Healthcare they just regurgitate whatever their media tells them about "Socialism" or "Universal Healthcare" or
the good that paying for healthcare does (because of the quality of the doctors as opposed to having to wait).

[Tosin007]

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

US cities are very diverse and that includes the causes and conditions from which crime occurs as well as the social and economic factors. Canada, and to a certain extent, Europe does not have these same factors.

Car accident are pretty cut-and-dry no matter where you go.

NYC is bigger & way, way, more Diverse than any other Major US City.
It has more Blacks than many other US Cities ENTIRE populations.
This includes Memphis, New Orleans, Baltimore, Cleveland, St. Louis, Birmingham, etc. (Black Majority Cities).
Yet somehow its Per-Capita Murder Rates are still lower, so whats those other Cities excuses? it has more Blacks than Chicago, & About as Many total in NYC Proper than the Entire Atlanta Metropolitan Statistical Area. (One of the Largest Black Majority Cities in the Entire US). & Thats just NYC's "City Proper". Saying nothing of the Metro Population which is more than 3 Times bigger at over 20 Million.
So now we clearly know that crime isn't race either.. (Also NYC has a very Large Population of people living in Poverty). I believe one of the highest in the US. (But it STILL has a lower violent crime rate than the US Averages).

[mousquet]

The 2nd amendment or whatever they call it, allowing anyone to carry a gun is a mere terrible sin anyway. Who the ugly ass needs a gun? If you have to fight as an ugly dick, at least be brave enough to do that with the natural means of your body.

Ha! I bet this shitty world would be somewhat different and better if things were this way.

[Tosin007]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Memphis is a lost city. Like Baltimore. Detroit. No one cares.

Its young black men killing young black men. And as long as its just black people killing black people, no one cares.

This is how hipsters can be proud of living in a place like Chicago in their relatively safe area of town while people living literally miles away live in warzones.

As long as poor blacks kill majority other poor blacks, no one will care. Period.

And as long as the police are demonized and constantly told to WORK WITH THE COMMUNITY, nothing will happen. Parts of Chicago and Memphis have no community. You have warzones. And good citizens, who commit no crime, but are too poor to move will LOVE to see a robust police presence, where they can walk around and not be SCARED of the same young men who hurt the entire neighborhoods they live in.

Wow! That's really sad! The Wealthiest Country in the world & it still doesn't want to help its poor or suffering. Its really sad how a country as beautiful as the US is like that.

[Tosin007]

Originally Posted by mousquet

The 2nd amendment or whatever they call it, allowing anyone to carry a gun is a mere terrible sin anyway. Who the ugly ass needs a gun? If you have to fight as an ugly dick, at least be brave enough to do that with the natural means of your body.

Ha! I bet this shitty world would be somewhat different and better if things were this way.

Your right! But the American Rhetoric about that is they need it for protection, from whom you might ask? They always say its the "Criminals".
Or some Americans even say this: "To Protect us from a Tyrannical Government". So then whose the Criminal, the Government or the Criminals? Or Both? I'm all for Gun Control. (Since I am a Canadian). But I am also for people owning them responsibly but not for for Self Defense but for Sport, or Hunting sure.. (I also think it depends on where u live). If u live in the Far North/ Arctic or a Rural Property Somewhere, where wild animals could impede on your overall sense of safety (as well as property). Then u should have the right to shoot @ Such animals. But u are right generally speaking having a Gun doesn't make anybody safer. Its just a race against time.
The Argument is very faulty IMO because it relies on premeditation of criminal actions & the reaction time of being able to actually prevent such an action in the 1st place.
Something the Police has been proven to do & be trained to do far better than your average joe. It violates my beliefs as a "Libertarian" as well as violates the "Non-Aggression Principle"! Through the "Initiation of Force". The Government in the US actually impedes on its own Citizens freedom @ the point of a Gun. More Government requires MORE Guns, not less Guns. & In turn limits your "freedom". Shoot or be shot at. (Those are ur only 2 options). You can't reduce all Gun Violence to Zero but u can reduce it with fewer Guns. & many other developed nations have reduced it somewhat at least in comparison to the US. Having a stronger "Social Safety" Net also helps too. It creates a system in place that produces less "criminal intent" needed to get ahead in the society you are born into. (Again something the US is lacking). Although with the nature of the US (& its lower density environment & high amounts of Urban/ Suburban Sprawl, relative to basically any other country on the earth today). It makes sense why people would want to be armed with such slow Police Response times for criminal actions/ behavior. Now if they lived in a more Densley Populated Environment. (Like say a NYC type of place). Maybe then Violent Crime would be lower! (Notice NYC isn't as spread out as some other US Cities & it has less crime?). Density = More Police/ Undercover Police Presence, faster response times, more eyewitnesses. = Less Crime as well. Compare Suburban Crime Rates between, Canada, Europe, & The US & u will notice a STARK Contrast/ Difference between the 3! The US has by far the most Suburban Crime. Why? Lower Density, Slower Police Response Times, Fewer Eyewitnesses, & an easier getaway for criminals. Sprawl produces Crime. (& again reduces your quality of life). The US Simply sprawls more heavily than Canada & Europe.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by mousquet

The 2nd amendment or whatever they call it, allowing anyone to carry a gun is a mere terrible sin anyway. Who the ugly ass needs a gun? If you have to fight as an ugly dick, at least be brave enough to do that with the natural means of your body.

Ha! I bet this shitty world would be somewhat different and better if things were this way.

The 2nd amendment, you know, that thing that was enshrined in our constitution? Yeah that thing.

Yeah who needs a gun? Sorry, I need to hit the gym to be able to fight off every dick who comes into my life? What about my wife? "Sorry baby, you are naturally less strong then men committing a crime against you, good luck!"

People are not equal. Crimes against women are real. We are not equal in strength, or character, so until that day comes, I believe in the rights of gun owners.

God made us men and women, Smith and Wesson made them equal.

[softee]

Toronto is at 23.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Yeah who needs a gun? Sorry, I need to hit the gym to be able to fight off every dick who comes into my life? What about my wife? "Sorry baby, you are naturally less strong then men committing a crime against you, good luck!"

People are not equal. Crimes against women are real. We are not equal in strength, or character, so until that day comes, I believe in the rights of gun owners.

Yes, people are totally equal and you don't need "Smith and Wesson", no matter what you think.

What women hate about us is that we are cowards with guns. What they love is confident behavior, like guys scared by nothing. Believe me... Women, by nature, bear children, which makes the whole fucking difference between them and sorry ugly dicks like us. They look for strong confident people, because they know strength will bring better children to them. It is natural, like coming from above. You don't have to be scared, you were given everything needed.

Throw away your gun and keep making deeper love to your wife. It'll be fine this way. Surely, love is the only way to get stronger.

[Darkoshvilli]

Well said, mousquet