The Canadian Electric Vehicle thread

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by whatnext

It’s a preview of what they will be offering, not a car show concept. Would it be better if it was ready now? Sure but I can wait until 2025.

If they deliver that in 2025 and it doesn't have an insane price tag, I will be genuinely surprised. I expect it gets hit with the ugly stick from studio to production floor and comes in $20k more than the Tesla of the same class.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by trueviking

disagree completley.....my experience on the old social media is that Elon fan boys are not environment loving tech nerds, but instead radical, racist, right wing nutcases....like him.

anti-Elon people are educated liberals, more likely to be boycotting things out of principle than committing acts of violence.

I am an example of this...I'm more of a bike guy than a car guy but if I was to buy an electric car, I would never buy a Tesla because of his political views.

He lives in the Bay Area. His stereotype of Tesla drivers probably holds true there. I'd say they're closer to the old stereotype of BMW drivers here.....

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Hecate

It’s funny seeing the anti Elon crowd. The guy has done more for the environment than Greta thunberg ever will and people complain. He’s probably done more for reducing emissions than anyone in history and people bitch. The best are the ones that call him an antisemite, like, you seriously have no idea what you’re talking about.

You going to be buying a Tesla soon?

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by homebucket

There's probably big difference in demographics here, if you're focusing solely on social media. I see very little evidence of educated liberals boycotting Tesla out of principle here in California, in real life. It's probably actually the opposite. I would wager they make up the majority of the buyers. I do know a few friends/co-workers that share your opinion, and would not buy a Tesla because of Musk, so it's not an uncommon opinion, but they're definitely in the minority. The vast majority of Tesla owners I know would simply shrug their shoulders and provide some lukewarm response saying they don't necessarily share the same views of Musk.

I agree with you. The vast majority of Tesla owners just want an EV and don’t base their choice on the company owner. I am specifically talking about people who hate or love Elon. Those with strong opinions about him. My experience is that most of those who love him, love him because he’s a right wing nut job and they share his beliefs. Those who hate him are liberals. The original post was a response to the idea that Elon haters might key a Tesla. My assertion is that those who hate him are not the type to do that because they are liberals. Most probably support EV’s but hate him.

From my experience some of those who are fan boys are tech guys, but a large proportion share his right wing agenda and aren’t particularly interested in environmental issues. I actually don’t think Musk cares about it either. It’s just a good way to get rich.

This doesn’t really have anything to do with who buys a Tesla because most likely have no strong feelings about him.

[OldDartmouthMark]

You can say one thing about ol’ Elon, you can’t even mention his name without evoking strong emotions in people.

What I don’t get is when somebody says they are turned off his company (that he is the face of) because of his words and actions, Tesla fans take it like a personal insult.

I say if you like Teslas then get one and enjoy your purchase. It’s just a car, though, so no need to have a cow when someone mentions that they don’t like Musk. Who cares?

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

You can say one thing about ol’ Elon, you can’t even mention his name without evoking strong emotions in people.

What I don’t get is when somebody says they are turned off his company (that he is the face of) because of his words and actions, Tesla fans take it like a personal insult.

I say if you like Teslas then get one and enjoy your purchase. It’s just a car, though, so no need to have a cow when someone mentions that they don’t like Musk. Who cares?

I honestly think it's because they feel judged. If someone says Musk is bad and therefore they won't buy products that will help enrich him, people hear that as, "It's wrong for you to buy products that help enrich him." And it naturally follows that if they think they're being accused of wrong-doing, that others may see them as a bad person unless they can defend themselves. And in some cases they might be right. Although personally, I find consumer activism is hard. If you want to make a positive (or the least negative) impact on the world with your consumer choices, it's an incredibly daunting goal.

Even just with the environment you have total life-cycle emissions, the impact of mining or other resource extraction, the end of life disposal including recycling and toxicity of material to name a few. Then beyond the environment there's a company's labour practices, how many of the jobs are domestic, if any money goes to undesirable governments (like the China discussion earlier) or if the company or any of its owners supports harmful socio-political movements. And if you manage to find the perfect product in terms of the ethics, what if it's an inferior value in terms of cost or quality?There's just so much that it isn't surprising when a lot of people just give up and just buy whatever product they like the most. So it really doesn't make sense to judge people for not taking on something that daunting. Personally I just try to do my best but I don't have the time or energy to make perfectly informed choices on everything.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I honestly think it's because they feel judged. If someone says Musk is bad and therefore they won't buy products that will help enrich him, people hear that as, "It's wrong for you to buy products that help enrich him." And it naturally follows that if they think they're being accused of wrong-doing, that others may see them as a bad person unless they can defend themselves. And in some cases they might be right. Although personally, I find consumer activism is hard. If you want to make a positive (or the least negative) impact on the world with your consumer choices, it's an incredibly daunting goal.

Even just with the environment you have total life-cycle emissions, the impact of mining or other resource extraction, the end of life disposal including recycling and toxicity of material to name a few. Then beyond the environment there's a company's labour practices, how many of the jobs are domestic, if any money goes to undesirable governments (like the China discussion earlier) or if the company or any of its owners supports harmful socio-political movements. And if you manage to find the perfect product in terms of the ethics, what if it's an inferior value in terms of cost or quality?There's just so much that it isn't surprising when a lot of people just give up and just buy whatever product they like the most. So it really doesn't make sense to judge people for not taking on something that daunting. Personally I just try to do my best but I don't have the time or energy to make perfectly informed choices on everything.

Oh aren't we so busy judging each other nowadays? Young people judging old people, old people judging young people, car drivers judging cyclists, cyclists judging car drivers, religious group 1 judging religious group 2, right judging left, left judging right. On and on ad nauseam. Life is complicated enough, without wasting all this energy judging one another...

...which is different than having personal opinions which influence your personal decisions. For example, I think Musk is a dick and I don't want to support him. If others don't care about that it's none of my business. I also think Teslas are ugly (except the older Model S, and roadsters) and don't like the way they're put together, but that's just me. Other people obviously love them.

To simplify, it's your money so spend it in a way that works best for you. And forget about thinking about what you think everybody else is thinking. That's too much noise, and just gets in the way of living your life (which goes by quickly when you waste it on non-worthwhile things - like judging other people).

Just my opinion, but I hope we have more choices for EVs than Tesla or brands based in Communist China after 2035.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Oh aren't we so busy judging each other nowadays? Young people judging old people, old people judging young people, car drivers judging cyclists, cyclists judging car drivers, religious group 1 judging religious group 2, right judging left, left judging right. On and on ad nauseam. Life is complicated enough, without wasting all this energy judging one another...

...which is different than having personal opinions which influence your personal decisions. For example, I think Musk is a dick and I don't want to support him. If others don't care about that it's none of my business. I also think Teslas are ugly (except the older Model S, and roadsters) and don't like the way they're put together, but that's just me. Other people obviously love them.

To simplify, it's your money so spend it in a way that works best for you. And forget about thinking about what you think everybody else is thinking. That's too much noise, and just gets in the way of living your life (which goes by quickly when you waste it on non-worthwhile things - like judging other people).

Just my opinion, but I hope we have more choices for EVs than Tesla or brands based in Communist China after 2035.

Lots of great thinkers, inventors; the likes of Henry Ford and Edison, had questionable views. Perhaps it goes with the territory of innovation and creativity. In terms of world economics, influence, and power though, great economies can also be derailed by overzealous illiberalism.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Architype

Lots of great thinkers, inventors; the likes of Henry Ford and Edison, had questionable views. Perhaps it goes with the territory of innovation and creativity. In terms of world economics, influence, and power though, great economies can also be derailed by overzealous illiberalism.

Refusing to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a vehicle from a given brand because you don't like the founder is illiberalism? Are the people who refuse to buy cars made in China also illiberal or just the ones refusing to buy Teslas?

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Refusing to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a vehicle from a given brand because you don't like the founder is illiberalism? Are the people who refuse to buy cars made in China also illiberal or just the ones refusing to buy Teslas?

No, that's not illiberalism, I meant that racism and prejudice really can be destructive forces in world politics and economies, but perhaps not so much in technology and science. It's up to you what you choose to buy or patronize, but we've been buying Chinese products for decades now, and no one seemed to care. Politics and ideology are much like religion anyway, there are both good and bad ideas found in them. I consider that Musk has done more good in the world than bad, that is unless you think EVs and rockets are a big mistake. (You'll love the kamikaze Tesla scene in "Leave the World Behind".)

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Oh aren't we so busy judging each other nowadays? Young people judging old people, old people judging young people, car drivers judging cyclists, cyclists judging car drivers, religious group 1 judging religious group 2, right judging left, left judging right. On and on ad nauseam. Life is complicated enough, without wasting all this energy judging one another...

...which is different than having personal opinions which influence your personal decisions. For example, I think Musk is a dick and I don't want to support him. If others don't care about that it's none of my business. I also think Teslas are ugly (except the older Model S, and roadsters) and don't like the way they're put together, but that's just me. Other people obviously love them.

To simplify, it's your money so spend it in a way that works best for you. And forget about thinking about what you think everybody else is thinking. That's too much noise, and just gets in the way of living your life (which goes by quickly when you waste it on non-worthwhile things - like judging other people).

Just my opinion, but I hope we have more choices for EVs than Tesla or brands based in Communist China after 2035.

Likewise, buying a Chinese EV does not make one a Communist apologist as some on here would lead you to believe.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by Changing City

I've read that it's partly that the scale of the market is small, and also the way the market is spread over a wide geography which makes logistics difficult for a new company coming in. The US tariffs have (so far) been too great to make that a worthwhile market, so there's no benefit of a matching market there for Chinese car makers, while US brands like Tesla, Lucid, Rivian have found it possible to enter the Canadian market. Australia, despite having similar geographical issues, and a smaller market (about a million units a year, Vs 1.5 million in Canada) was worth competing in as there's no domestic manufacturing now.

There are Chinese brands, including BYD, selling into Mexico now, so you can apparently see them in Southern California sometimes. Polestar have pretty much started up from nothing here, and the model 2 sold here is built in China, although the 3 is assembled in the US. The European design studio includes a lot of Chinese and Asian engineers, and the cars are built in a number of countries.

There's one brand supposedly coming into the North America market, now named Liteborne, with an SUV somewhat confusingly named the SEV, currently going through compliance verification. That's taken some time, and they also had to change the company name from Imperium, as somebody already owned it. BYD are selling a lot of cars in Europe, but so far only buses (and more recently semi trucks) in North America, with a California assembly plant.

One company I'm intrigued by is NIO, with their battery swap stations.

They've already been delivering in Europe.

I've seen them on the road testing here in the Bay Area and they make the Blazer EV look like trash. Target date is supposedly 2025. The more the merrier I say. If Detroit automakers can't put together a competitive product, give me somebody who can.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by homebucket

One company I'm intrigued by is NIO, with their battery swap stations.

They've already been delivering in Europe.

I've seen them on the road testing here in the Bay Area and they make the Blazer EV look like trash. Target date is supposedly 2025. The more the merrier I say. If Detroit automakers can't put together a competitive product, give me somebody who can.

They've apparently pulled back from the US 2025 target, (maybe) but they've significantly strengthened their finances with $2.2bn from Abu Dhabi this week.

[Innsertnamehere]

I saw a Vinfast on the 407 over the weekend. Surprised anyone is buying them, though I do know they have a dealer in Oakville now.

[Hecate]

I’m no Elon fan boy, but the shit people say about him, no wonder he has become what he has. The media treats him like shit, distorting, omitting and twisting the stuff he says. That’s proven with all the antisemitism accusations made against him by every major news source. Then look at what Biden did to him… blatant slap in the face. Who has a conference on electric vehicle production without inviting the world’s leading electric vehicle producer? No wonder he speaks out against these people.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You going to be buying a Tesla soon?

Probably not, but i do have Starlink! Go Elon!

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

The problem comes when people can't judge each of another person's various actions on an individual basis. Saying that bad things are good (or at least acceptable) because they're done by a person they like or saying good things are bad because they're done by a person they don't like. I was a huge fan of Musk for years before he became (or at least revealed himself to be) a crazy ahole. But as his public behaviour changed, my views of him changed. Fortunately I wasn't like many people who would have become a die-hard apologist for everything he did because I liked one thing he did early on in helping to advance EVs.

That said, it's better to judge people by how much they accomplish relative to their opportunities and circumstances rather than the absolute amount. I've never seen any study that attempted to measure the global effect that Greta had through her efforts to promote climate awareness so we have no basis for minimizing her contributions.

There’s a couple sayings that come to mind… “talk is cheap” and “actions speak louder than words”.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Hecate

I’m no Elon fan boy, but the shit people say about him, no wonder he has become what he has. The media treats him like shit, distorting, omitting and twisting the stuff he says. That’s proven with all the antisemitism accusations made against him by every major news source. Then look at what Biden did to him… blatant slap in the face. Who has a conference on electric vehicle production without inviting the world’s leading electric vehicle producer? No wonder he speaks out against these people.

He's not different than Steve Jobs. But I don't see anybody saying that people who buy Android phones are Luddites.

The idea that the only way to support green is to give your money to an Elon founded company is patently ridiculous. That's pure fanboyism. I mean if people really cared about being green they wouldn't own cars to begin with. But that's a whole other tangent...

By the way, he was excluded from that press conference by Biden because of his anti-union stance. Kinda hard to have a whole press conference about how EVs will create "good paying union jobs" with arguably the most anti-union (at the moment) auto CEO there. A huge part of Biden's argument for investing billions in supporting the auto sector to transition is that it will create quality secure employment. Tesla's working conditions very much undermine that argument.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Likewise, buying a Chinese EV does not make one a Communist apologist as some on here would lead you to believe.

Right. Buy what you want to buy. Just make informed decisions (if you want) or not (if you don’t want). It’s up to each of us to follow our own hearts.

I have to say, this has taken up so much more air in the room than I ever would have imagined. I’ll say it again… nobody is judging you. Nobody cares what brand of car you buy or if you choose to not buy one. I stated my opinion based on my personal feelings on the subject, but I’m no fucking guru ( at the thought of that) so make up your own minds about what is right for you. I’ll repeat: nobody is judging you. Try to live your best life, stay true to yourself, and don’t worry about what you may think that others may be thinking of you, because none of that really matters.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

He's not different than Steve Jobs. But I don't see anybody saying that people who buy Android phones are Luddites.

The idea that the only way to support green is to give your money to an Elon founded company is patently ridiculous. That's pure fanboyism. I mean if people really cared about being green they wouldn't own cars to begin with. But that's a whole other tangent...

By the way, he was excluded from that press conference by Biden because of his anti-union stance. Kinda hard to have a whole press conference about how EVs will create "good paying union jobs" with arguably the most anti-union (at the moment) auto CEO there. A huge part of Biden's argument for investing billions in supporting the auto sector to transition is that it will create quality secure employment. Tesla's working conditions very much undermine that argument.

That’s after the fact, the union excuse was to save face. It was a summit on electric vehicle production in the United States. He should have been there.