Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Is it guts, or does LeGeault just genuinely think it is not a risk worth taking, and that almost all of Quebec's aspirational goals can be accomplished in Canada.

Define "Québec's aspirational goals".

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My sense is that if reliable polling was highly in favour of independence, that Legault might look around his party caucus, assess his support, and make a move for it.

After all, it was his personal dream for the first 40-50 years of his life.

Stuff like that doesn't go away completely.

And what I just said is suspected of Legault by a lot of adamant federalists in Quebec.

I don't think blank polls (sondages à froid) will ever be in favor of independence. Why should they be if the issue is not even promoted? If the Québec PM (whoever he/she is) waits for polls to be clearly in favor of independence, then he/she is a suiveur and not a leader. A leader is one who comes to the people and say look, I believe this way is the best for our country, and I will develop my case and try to convince you.

When Jacques Parizeau launched the 2nd referendum, all polls showed very little support for independence. He had the courage to launch it anyway and develop his case. Like him or dislike him, but that's political courage. I have very little respect for politicians who cling to power and have no ideals or spine, only following the dominant opinion of the moment as expressed in polls, à la Angela Merkel, as if in our democracies if was now polls that decided things.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Define "Québec's aspirational goals".

I wish I knew. It seems to be a moving target.

There is a certain romantic capriciousness to Quebec's political soul.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I don't think blank polls (sondages à froid) will ever be in favor of independence. Why should they be if the issue is not even promoted? If the Québec PM (whoever he/she is) waits for polls to be clearly in favor of independence, then he/she is a suiveur and not a leader. A leader is one who comes to the people and say look, I believe this way is the best for our country, and I will develop my case and try to convince you.

When Jacques Parizeau launched the 2nd referendum, all polls showed very little support for independence. He had the courage to launch it anyway and develop his case. Like him or dislike him, but that's political courage. I have very little respect for politicians who cling to power and have no ideals or spine, only following the dominant opinion of the moment as expressed in polls, à la Angela Merkel, as if in our democracies if was now polls that decided things.

I get all that, but in fairness to Legault the issue when it becomes "hot" is very divisive here and leads to all sorts of socio-political drama. One could call him wise to want to spare his people all of that.

Legault or not, I personally think it will eventually come back to the fore at some point not too far away - but that doesn't mean I think it will eventually win.

[Acajack]

Video of the exchange:

https://twitter.com/lines_down/statu...94378921676801

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I get all that, but in fairness to Legault the issue when it becomes "hot" is very divisive here and leads to all sorts of socio-political drama.

Well then they should work on de-dramatizing it, as the SNP has successfully done in Scotland. I think the sovereignist movement also needs to be more inclusive of minorities, as the SNP has done, but of course it's easier said than done. The SNP has been quite successful at fostering the development of Black and Asian Scottish nationalists.

For example the first "visible minority" (as you guys say) Scottish MP ever was elected under the SNP nationalist banner (she's of Pakistani background).

Scotland elects first woman of colour to Scottish parliament

Kaukab Stewart makes history as she wins for SNP in Glasgow Kelvin

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ish-parliament

The current SNP leader during the last independence referendum with Scots Asians:





Africans also:



The sovereignists need to move from 'pure laine' to hyphenated nationalism if they want to be successful, as the SNP has done in Scotland.

[MolsonExport]

Parizeau and his lobsters in a pot. Remember that?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The sovereignists need to move from 'pure laine' to hyphenated nationalism if they want to be successful, as the SNP has done in Scotland.

Parizeau (by Jove) would be spinning in his grave.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Interesting. If ever Québec voted for independence, it would be because someone like Legault would propose it (PQ is too vilified for that now). But I don't think he has the guts for that. It takes guts, and putting principles before one's career, which is rarely found in politicians nowadays.

A referendum is a lot more likely under a girouette politician (a.k.a. “a politician who really listens to his constituents, even when they’re wrong”) like Legault. All that’s required is that the people start to clamor for one, and Legault will deliver.

By constrast, a staunchly federalist Quebec PM would, in that situation, briefly wonder if it’s him who’s out of touch, then decide that of course he isn’t, it’s the Québécois who are wrong. And he’d do everything he can to impede the process.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Well then they should work on de-dramatizing it, as the SNP has successfully done in Scotland. I think the sovereignist movement also needs to be more inclusive of minorities, as the SNP has done, but of course it's easier said than done. The SNP has been quite successful at fostering the development of Black and Asian Scottish nationalists.

For example the first "visible minority" (as you guys say) Scottish MP ever was elected under the SNP nationalist banner (she's of Pakistani background).



The current SNP leader during the last independence referendum with Scots Asians:





Africans also:



The sovereignists need to move from 'pure laine' to hyphenated nationalism if they want to be successful, as the SNP has done in Scotland.

In all honesty Quebec sovereignists have moved away from "pure laine" politics and did so quite some time ago. That term is rarely used in French these days. Even though their detractors claim they haven't.

There are quite a few prominent minorities in the PQ and there have been for a while. QS has even more minorities than the PQ and they are a sovereignist party too. Or at least some of their most prominent people like Ruba Ghazal (present) or Amir Khadir (recent past) don't shy away from talking about sovereignty.

It doesn't translate quite effectively in terms of voting percentages because a significant share of the ethnic minority population of Quebec is integrated into the anglophone community, and as such they are basically a "write-off" for Quebec sovereignists and even nationalism in general.

In a sense you don't have that in Scotland where the linguistic rift does not really exist.

On the other hand, one thing that Quebec has going for it compared to Scotland is that it really does feel more tangibly "foreign" to the rest of Canada than Scotland does relative to, say, England.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

A referendum is a lot more likely under a girouette politician (a.k.a. “a politician who really listens to his constituents, even when they’re wrong”) like Legault. All that’s required is that the people start to clamor for one, and Legault will deliver.

By constrast, a staunchly federalist Quebec PM would, in that situation, briefly wonder if it’s him who’s out of touch, then decide that of course he isn’t, it’s the Québécois who are wrong. And he’d do everything he can to impede the process.

Which is precisely what Liberal Premier Robert Bourassa did in the early 90s when polls showed that public support for sovereignty had possibly edged above 70%, when he was in power.

Obviously he did not call a referendum.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Parizeau (by Jove) would be spinning in his grave.

No doubt rolling over his wife and mother of his children lying next to him, Alicja Poznanska, a survivor of Bergen-Belsen.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

No doubt rolling over his wife and mother of his children lying next to him, Alicja Poznanska, a survivor of Bergen-Belsen.

I'm always interested if there is a French correlate to these anglophone aphorisms. Is there anything in French that would be comparable to "spinning in the grave"???

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I'm always interested if there is a French correlate to these anglophone aphorisms. Is there anything in French that would be comparable to "spinning in the grave"???

Yes, it is "se retourner dans sa tombe". It literally means turning over in one's grave.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In all honesty Quebec sovereignists have moved away from "pure laine" politics and did so quite some time ago. That term is rarely used in French these days. Even though their detractors claim they haven't.

Yeah, but not to the extent of the SNP. Why doesn't PQ promote more "visible minority" députés for example? Why is it the PLQ who have a Haitian Creole as leader and not the PQ? If they had designated a Haitian Creole leader, they wouldn't be last in this election.

Originally Posted by Acajack

On the other hand, one thing that Quebec has going for it compared to Scotland is that it really does feel more tangibly "foreign" to the rest of Canada than Scotland does relative to, say, England.

Oh, Scotland also feels quite tangibly foreign compared to England. Even the language is not the same: Scottish English can be pretty hard to understand.

Just to give you an idea how foreign Scotland can be: back when I lived in London, I traveled to the Scottish highlands. We had a car accident near the little town of Auchtertyre (which is pronounced like "auch" in German, and then like "teur-tir" in French, with rolled "r" like in Spanish ).

I was renting a car from London. I called the insurance company so they would tow us to a garage. I was transferred to a lady who, from her accent, appeared to have been from Birmingham or a place like that. She could not understand the name of that Scottish place. I had to spell it for her. She could not find it on her computer. She said it wasn't a place in the UK. At that point I became slightly angry and said yes, it's in the UK, and it's really a place that exists...

Eventually they found the place, and sent a local Scottish mechanics to tow us. The guy was part shepherd, part mechanics. As he couldn't repair the car, he towed us to Fort William, where another guy would tow us to Glasgow. The insurance company decided that the car needed to be brought back to London, which cut our trip short. And we embarked on a 24 hours journey being relayed to London.

With the guy who towed us to Fort William, I discussed life in the Scottish highlands, and the Gaelic Scottish language. He told me lots of words in Gaelic, his native tongue.

Arrived in Fort William, we waited on the parking lot for the next guy to take us to Glasgow. We turned on the radio, looked for the BBC, to waste time, but the BBC in Fort William was broadcasting in... Scottish Gaelic! That's when me and my friend from LA really thought we were in a foreign country. You're suddenly totally lost in translation!

There was no news bulletin in English. Only Scottish Gaelic. Then the next guy arrived and towed us to Glasgow through some rugged terrain of mountains and moors that looked like Mordor in the Lord of the Rings (Scotland is truely an otherworldly experience), under the darkest possible skies, as if the end of the world was near. Stunningly beautiful if you like that sort of ambiance.

Then in Glasgow, 3rd guy, who towed us... to the English border, because Scottish mechanics refuse to drive any further than the Scottish-English border. This guy, young guy, we almost could not understand him, so thick was his accent. My friend from LA was at a complete loss, and I understood perhaps only half of what he said, which was embarrassing. From what I gathered, he was saying things like "I have friends over there in England, but I could never live there!" We chatted all the way to the border, me trying to decipher his language.

At the border, 4th guy who came to tow us, this one an English guy, with typical English accent from England. He was the most boring of the 4. Suddenly it felt like "back home", but boring. He towed us to London. He had not much to say, contrary to the 3 Scottish drivers.

Each time I go to Scotland, I can't help but notice how different it is compared to England. Even their medias are now largely disconnected (they talk of different subjects, and rarely pay attention to each other...). Even Queen Elizabeth II was mourned in Edinburgh as the Queen of Scotland and not as the Queen of the UK... In fact the first time I went to Edinburgh when I was 12, I still remember how the guard at Edinburgh Castle insistently pointed out to the crown being exhibited in one of the rooms, saying "it's the crown of Scotland", and guess what they put on her coffin in Edinburgh? That very same crown! which hasn't been used for coronations since the 17th century now that the kings of Scotland rule from London and coronations take place in London and not Edinburgh anymore.

[MonctonRad]

Lowland Scots is not that much different than standard English (except for Glaswegian, which is from another planet). As a Maritimer, I felt quite at home is Scotland, as there are parts of the region (especially northern NS and Cape Breton) with a bit of a Scottish lilt, and some of the Scottish sayings and wording have migrated across the Atlantic.

I know Fort William well. Again, no problems there, but Gaelic doesn't really become predominant until you get into the northern highlands and the islands.

Your problem with the mechanics might be more because of their class status. Class has as much of an influence on dialect and accent as does geography.

[MolsonExport]

Glaswegians have an extremely thick accent. Every word sounds like a set of vowels with nearly no consonants.

• Video Link

[New Brisavoine]

Yeah, he spoke a bit like the bespectacled guy in that video.

[New Brisavoine]

Seriously, this is as different from English as Dutch from standard German. If Scotland had never been united with England in the first place, probably it would be considered a different language like Dutch (which would probably be considered a "thick accent of German" if the Netherlands had been united with Germany).

• Video Link

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yeah, but not to the extent of the SNP. Why doesn't PQ promote more "visible minority" députés for example? Why is it the PLQ who have a Haitian Creole as leader and not the PQ? If they had designated a Haitian Creole leader, they wouldn't be last in this election.


Oh, Scotland also feels quite tangibly foreign compared to England. Even the language is not the same: Scottish English can be pretty hard to understand.

Just to give you an idea how foreign Scotland can be: back when I lived in London, I traveled to the Scottish highlands. We had a car accident near the little town of Auchtertyre (which is pronounced like "auch" in German, and then like "teur-tir" in French, with rolled "r" like in Spanish ).

I was renting a car from London. I called the insurance company so they would tow us to a garage. I was transferred to a lady who, from her accent, appeared to have been from Birmingham or a place like that. She could not understand the name of that Scottish place. I had to spell it for her. She could not find it on her computer. She said it wasn't a place in the UK. At that point I became slightly angry and said yes, it's in the UK, and it's really a place that exists...

Eventually they found the place, and sent a local Scottish mechanics to tow us. The guy was part shepherd, part mechanics. As he couldn't repair the car, he towed us to Fort William, where another guy would tow us to Glasgow. The insurance company decided that the car needed to be brought back to London, which cut our trip short. And we embarked on a 24 hours journey being relayed to London.

With the guy who towed us to Fort William, I discussed life in the Scottish highlands, and the Gaelic Scottish language. He told me lots of words in Gaelic, his native tongue.

Arrived in Fort William, we waited on the parking lot for the next guy to take us to Glasgow. We turned on the radio, looked for the BBC, to waste time, but the BBC in Fort William was broadcasting in... Scottish Gaelic! That's when me and my friend from LA really thought we were in a foreign country. You're suddenly totally lost in translation!

There was no news bulletin in English. Only Scottish Gaelic. Then the next guy arrived and towed us to Glasgow through some rugged terrain of mountains and moors that looked like Mordor in the Lord of the Rings (Scotland is truely an otherworldly experience), under the darkest possible skies, as if the end of the world was near. Stunningly beautiful if you like that sort of ambiance.

Then in Glasgow, 3rd guy, who towed us... to the English border, because Scottish mechanics refuse to drive any further than the Scottish-English border. This guy, young guy, we almost could not understand him, so thick was his accent. My friend from LA was at a complete loss, and I understood perhaps only half of what he said, which was embarrassing. From what I gathered, he was saying things like "I have friends over there in England, but I could never live there!" We chatted all the way to the border, me trying to decipher his language.

At the border, 4th guy who came to tow us, this one an English guy, with typical English accent from England. He was the most boring of the 4. Suddenly it felt like "back home", but boring. He towed us to London. He had not much to say, contrary to the 3 Scottish drivers.

Each time I go to Scotland, I can't help but notice how different it is compared to England. Even their medias are now largely disconnected (they talk of different subjects, and rarely pay attention to each other...). Even Queen Elizabeth II was mourned in Edinburgh as the Queen of Scotland and not as the Queen of the UK... In fact the first time I went to Edinburgh when I was 12, I still remember how the guard at Edinburgh Castle insistently pointed out to the crown being exhibited in one of the rooms, saying "it's the crown of Scotland", and guess what they put on her coffin in Edinburgh? That very same crown! which hasn't been used for coronations since the 17th century now that the kings of Scotland rule from London and coronations take place in London and not Edinburgh anymore.

I do think that Scotland feels somewhat different from England, but nonetheless Quebec still feels more foreign relative to most of the rest of Canada.

(I've travelled around the world so I've been to most of these places we've been discussing BTW.)

To me, Scotland feels about as different from England as Newfoundland feels from mainland Anglo-Canada. I mean, it's like they could just as easily part of the same country, or just as easily be in totally different countries. Either or.

Quebec vs. the rest of Canada is more a long the lines of "places like these would typically be in different countries". Of course it's not a hard and fast rule - there are exceptions to this too: Lugano versus Basel, Grozny versus Moscow, etc.

People say language isn't everything, and while there is truth in that, it still usually does make a huge difference.

Scottish culture is still fairly easily accessible to an Englishman - albeit with some attuning of the ears on occasion.

Québécois culture, if Anglo-Canadians took an interest in it, is largely inaccessible and indecipherable to the vast majority of them.

It's much easier for someone from Leeds to fit in and function in northern Scotland than for someone from Weyburn, Saskatchewan to fit in and function in central Quebec.

As I said: language matters. In spite of what many Canadians allege.

For example, one of my kids' significant other is French. Very French. Like Michel Sardou Classic French. (See? Would many Anglo-Canadians get what that means?)

Now, this kid has only been here since last Christmas, and has already begun picking up linguistic and cultural cues. Basically, "fitting in".

Would the average kid from Chatham, Ontario have been able to do the same in the same amount of time? I think not.

It's not good or bad. It just is what it is.