Canadian Retail Thread

[niwell]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

The eastern GTA seems to be losing out the most in this retail explosion...at least that is how I see it. Not much seems to be going that way despite being a market of over one million people.

The eastern GTA has by far the lowest overall income in the region. Markham being the somewhat outlier, but it has better connections than Durham or eastern Scarborough.

[Innsertnamehere]

Eastern GTA should just be happy markville and Pickering are going mid-market, yet alone high end.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

The eastern GTA has by far the lowest overall income in the region. Markham being the somewhat outlier, but it has better connections than Durham or eastern Scarborough.

That's interesting for a few reasons, not the least of which that Durham region is noticeably less "diverse" than Peel region.

Sort of goes against some people's perceptions that immigration "brings down" parts of cities and metro areas socio-economically.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's interesting for a few reasons, not the least of which that Durham region is noticeably less "diverse" than Peel region.

Sort of goes against some people's perceptions that immigration "brings down" parts of cities and metro areas socio-economically.

Markham was prosperous before the influx of monied vis-mins. I assume that is what attracted them in the first place.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's interesting for a few reasons, not the least of which that Durham region is noticeably less "diverse" than Peel region.

Sort of goes against some people's perceptions that immigration "brings down" parts of cities and metro areas socio-economically.

I've had family in Durham Region dating back to the 1950s (grandmother still lives in Pickering) and it's a bit of a culture shock going out to visit. It's noticeably lower income than much of the GTA and a lot whiter. And just kind of shabbily maintained. Many of the houses in her 1950s era subdivision are now rented out.

Although the Pickering town centre and waterfront areas are poised to go up in value for sure.

[MolsonExport]

Iconic downtown London department store Kingsmill's for sale, owner retiring

Older than Canada itself, Kingsmill’s began business in 1865 — two years before Confederation — as a dry goods store in what was then a frontier town in Canada West. The store opened on the same Dundas St. site where the retailer stands today.

The original store was opened by Kingsmill’s great-great grandfather, who immigrated from Ireland.

Over the years, the business has survived fires and radical upheaval in retailing, embracing online retailing and changing trends.

It’s also one of the last major family-owned downtown retailers, a store that still maintains old-fashioned touches like a hand-operated elevator staffed by an attendant.

[Retail-Insider]

La Maison Simons announces yet another store location. This one will be at Mississaga's Square One: http://www.retail-insider.com/2013/1...t-toronto.html

[ue]

Do you guys consider Scarborough "eastern GTA"? I always thought of Scarborough as relatively diverse, but not terribly wealthy like Old Toronto or Etobicoke.

^ So I guess that leaves 1-2 more to be confirmed, then?

Ottawa - Rideau Centre (2015)
Gatineau - Les Promenades Gatineau (2015)
West Vancouver - Park Royal (2016)
Mississauga - Square One (2016)

I'm betting Calgary's Southcentre or Chinook is the next announcement.

[miketoronto]

The eastern GTA is really not that much poorer at all. While Durham Region may look shabby or not as wealthy. It is more do to the residents who while they make good incomes, are more of that Harley biker kinda resident . I don't know if it still stands, but Oshawa used to and may still have the highest income levels in the GTA (as a metro area stat).

The west end also has a much larger population. And you can't expect high end stores to be everywhere. In fact, I personally think a lot of the high end expansion in the west end is not a good thing. The long term viability of support so many branches of high end stores I don't think it is that great. They are just eating away at market share that once went to one store (usually on Bloor).
Look at European cities. I was just in London, and most of their high end stores only have one location, and thats central London. Same goes for Paris.
How Toronto is going to support all these branches I don't know.

If anything it cheapens the brands. I know that with Holt Renfrew going into Square One, I don't look at that chain as that exclusive or worthy of paying a high price for items in anymore. Why? Because by opening at Square One and in a bunch of other locations like Yorkdale, it just makes it a store you can find anywhere else.

[WhipperSnapper]

Yeah, Eastern GTA in my mind would be Durham Region which is about 600, 000 people. Bikers is a bit harsh but it is an odd place becoming odder and more insular the further east you go. Time seems to have stopped in the mid 1980s.

In any case, it is a largely untapped market. Someone will make a ton of money there.

[MolsonExport]

How a wealthy urban conurbation of more than 6.5 million could support 3-4 Maison Simons is beyond me. Unless they build them all downtown. All in the Eaton Centre. This way, there would not be any Bari-style crises. Let the specialty olive oil emporiums rule supreme.

[Innsertnamehere]

eastern GTA is largely composed of lower-middle class homes. Not too much low income housing in Durham. Certianly feels right out of the 1980's Oshawa was triumphing the new Costo that opened beside their downtown as if it was the greatest thing in the world a couple of years ago.

Northern Pickering (Seaton) has been designated one of the major areas for sprawl in the GTA, and with the 407 extension coming in Durham is going to get a lot larger, I wouldn't be surprised if we see it hit 1 million in 20 years. The sprawl is supposed to go up to north of the 407, essentially lining up with Major Mackenzie in York Region. Its also the cheapest region in the GTA for single family homes currently and strikes me as the most conservative suburb in the city.

[TownGuy]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

The eastern GTA seems to be losing out the most in this retail explosion...at least that is how I see it. Not much seems to be going that way despite being a market of over one million people.

For what it's worth the Oshawa Centre is undergoing a $230 million expansion/redevelopment.

http://www.ivanhoecambridge.com/en-C...ing/index.aspx

[ue]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

How a wealthy urban conurbation of more than 6.5 million could support 3-4 Maison Simons is beyond me. Unless they build them all downtown. All in the Eaton Centre. This way, there would not be any Bari-style crises. Let the specialty olive oil emporiums rule supreme.

Well Montreal, at 4 million, already has 4 and Quebec City, at 800,000, has 3. Ottawa, with 1.2 million people, will have at least 2 by the end of the decade.

[miketoronto]

It should be noted that all the malls in the eastern GTA have basically all the stores the other malls like Yorkdale have, except for of course the super high end shops, which most GTA malls do not have.

But save for those few stores that only Yorkdale has, Yorkdale really is more hype and marketing than having anything significantly different.

My brother lives in eastern Durham, and out there Oshawa Centre Mall is like the "downtown" of the region.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by ue

Well Montreal, at 4 million, already has 4 and Quebec City, at 800,000, has 3. Ottawa, with 1.2 million people, will have at least 2 by the end of the decade.

indeed. hence my tongue-in-cheek response.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

indeed. hence my tongue-in-cheek response.

I never said anything about Simons. I was talking about high end stores like Holt Renfrew. There is no need for so many in one metropolitan area.

Saks Fifth Ave for example, only has one store in Greater San Francisco, and that is downtown SF.

High end stores just dilute their brand when they have so many branches that make it a common store. They also dilute sales, as high end shops are not something people go to everyday. The Holts at Yorkdale and Sherway just divert sales that otherwise would have been made at the Bloor Street store. They don't serve a new market at all.

[MolsonExport]

I think you may overestimate the time/effort people will take to do their shopping in the core, unless they are already living/working there.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I think you may overestimate the time/effort people will take to do their shopping in the core, unless they are already living/working there.

I don't think so.

People travel metropolitan wide to go to a unique downtown retail area. And they also travel metropolitan wide to go to Yorkdale.
The stores Yorkdale has do not get supported by the local neighborhoods around it.

For example, people from as far as Kitchener-Waterloo travel to Yorkdale to shop.
A good friend of mine grew up in Kitchener-Waterloo and remembers trips to not only downtown Toronto, but also Yorkdale for shopping.
But as Yorkdale gets more shops that can be found downtown, it keeps reduces the amount of people traveling into Toronto.

Guelph just did a retail study for their downtown and found that two areas are big draws for Guelph residents for shopping. Those areas are downtown Toronto and Yorkdale. And also Square One made the list.

There will always be that premier shopping destination in a region, and we have to decide if that will continue to be downtown, or a suburban mall.
I would rather we not do like most American cities and make it a suburban mall, but rather keep our downtowns the centre.

But with all this rampant retail expansion in Canada at the moment, we are going to see our downtowns diminished if our cites do not control retail expansion they way they did in the 70's and 80's.
Calgary has also seen its downtown lost out to Chinook Centre. Lets not have other cities follow.

For an urban forum I cannot believe how complacent some of you are.
You above all MolsonExport, should know this, as your city (London) sold out their downtown years ago by allowing suburban retail expansion which was not required in a city the size of London.

[MolsonExport]

I don't adhere to the false dichotomy that you seem to be proposing. Anyone that has familiarity with my postings knows full well that I am not at all in favor of endless sprawl. But neither am I in favor of draconian legislation severely constraining retail to the core, which I believe would be counterproductive. Let's not forget that it wasn't zoning that built the great city centres of yesteryear; it was market forces. Strangely, you seem to be opposed to the explosion of condominiums in the core of Toronto, which would seem to be the catalyst for retail expansion downtown.