The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[kool maudit]

You're right, but that is a bit perennial within hip hop. But you're not wrong about Lamar, This is America, that kind of contemporary grouping. Che Lingo in the UK. But I still see the academic-managerial front as dominant in this moment.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

You're right, but that is a bit perennial within hip hop. But you're not wrong about Lamar, This is America, that kind of contemporary grouping. Che Lingo in the UK. But I still see the academic-managerial front as dominant in this moment.

Fair enough. I think we'll have to wait and see what sort of cultural legacy this period of tumult leaves.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Wow! This thread has suddenly become very interesting and intellectually challenging. This is a lot better than the old thread from about 20 pages back which was all unchallengeable woke outrage.........

Yes, the elements of this conversation that lie beyond your comfort zone and understanding have been largely usurped by those within your window of tolerance. The complexes of race, relegated here mostly to shadow, are elsewhere brought further and further into the light. That which we deny grows stronger.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

The complexes of race, relegated here mostly to shadow, are elsewhere brought further and further into the light. That which we deny grows stronger.

Sure, but I'd still rather not be complicit in helping establish this renewed obsession with race if I can help it, given that the predictable result would be a visibly more segregated and racist society - a clear step backwards in my view.

If it still happens, it'll be despite me, not with my help.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by lio45

Sure, but I'd still rather not be complicit in helping establish this renewed obsession with race if I can help it, given that the predictable result would be a visibly more segregated and racist society - a clear step backwards in my view.

If it still happens, it'll be despite me, not with my help.

Yes, ever-the-champion against racism.

I understand though, since it does call a lot of your stances into question. Changing that requires time and energy.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

Sure, but I'd still rather not be complicit in helping establish this renewed obsession with race if I can help it, given that the predictable result would be a visibly more segregated and racist society - a clear step backwards in my view.

If it still happens, it'll be despite me, not with my help.

"Renewed obsession with race?"

[lio45]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Yes, ever-the-champion against racism.

You'll be glad to learn I'm now officially an "Ally", I've recently donated stuff of nonzero value to the protesters occupying the park in my neighborhood, who were happy about it; does that redeem me or not yet...?

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

I understand though, since it does call a lot of your stances into question. Changing that requires time and energy.

Actually, not at all, IMO. Changing my position on any question or issue, should I wish to do that, requires no time and energy on my part, it just requires me hearing convincing/compelling arguments. (I'm probably far from alone there. Just in this thread, I've seen several others who seem to have similar general views.)

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

"Renewed obsession with race?"

Yep. It should be theoretically possible to discuss police reform / the mental health care aspect of police work through a lens of "a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian". But some people always want to make everything be about race. I think that concept is mostly an American import (the kind of stuff that Anglo-Canada always laps up, unsusprisingly.)

It's the difference between "let's discuss the idea of an UBI" and "this black group is currently pushing the Govt of Canada to introduce an UBI-For-Blacks".

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by lio45

You'll be glad to learn I'm now officially an "Ally", I've recently donated stuff of nonzero value to the protesters occupying the park in my neighborhood, who were happy about it; does that redeem me or not yet...?

Actually, not at all, IMO. Changing my position on any question or issue, should I wish to do that, requires no time and energy on my part, it just requires me hearing convincing/compelling arguments. (I'm probably far from alone there. Just in this thread, I've seen several others who seem to have similar general views.)

If your mind is closed and your defences are up, then there tends to be no compelling or effective argument. Those defences are yours to own. The work and energy of others to counteract them is not infinite.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

Yep. It should be theoretically possible to discuss police reform / the mental health care aspect of police work through a lens of "a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian". But some people always want to make everything be about race. I think that concept is mostly an American import (the kind of stuff that Anglo-Canada always laps up, unsusprisingly.)

It's the difference between "let's discuss the idea of an UBI" and "this black group is currently pushing the Govt of Canada to introduce an UBI-For-Blacks".

I have to tell you that your lens on race, like your lens on our First Nations, strikes me as wanting to permanently entrench white supremacy more than anything else. First, address the inequalties THEN advocate for the status quo.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Wow! This thread has suddenly become very interesting and intellectually challenging. This is a lot better than the old thread from about 20 pages back which was all unchallengeable woke outrage.........

You should have known that this comment had a ~95% chance of bringing back dreambrother. Hope you're happy with what you did





(...... in all seriousness, he's welcome to post; I wouldn't engage him if I didn't consider him engageable.)

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I have to tell you that your lens on race, like your lens on our First Nations, strikes me as wanting to permanently entrench white supremacy more than anything else. First, address the inequalties THEN advocate for the status quo.

My opinion for years has been that the very first thing to do is address the Official inequality (Inequality of legal Status in this country) by terminating the apartheid and finally evolving into a less 19th century and more 20th century situation, one where "a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian". So, yeah, I'm all for addressing the inequalities first. When everyone's legally equal, then we can look at what's the second step.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I have to tell you that your lens on race, like your lens on our First Nations, strikes me as wanting to permanently entrench white supremacy more than anything else. First, address the inequalties THEN advocate for the status quo.

Yes, this messy period we are in is part of the process. All transformations tend to be painful or uncomfortable, from birth, to death, to aging, to any life change. Were we to try to maintain the status quo in the middle of those transformations, we would, first be wasting our time in denying the inevitable, and secondly be dragging out the pain. What we become post-transformation requires new understanding and vision.

I’ve been trying to understand myself and others through a Jungian perspective lately and this quote comes to mind:

A psyche at war with itself is only at peace when darkness comes to light.

The psyche here is both collective and individual.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

If your mind is closed and your defences are up, then there tends to be no compelling or effective argument. Those defences are yours to own.

My mind is very open, but exerts discrimination; stupid ideas are weeded out. Note that everyone in this thread agrees that police often have to act as social workers in practice, and that "shoot first and ask questions later" is incompatible with that role. It should be easy to have everyone on the same general page when discussing police reform.

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

The work and energy of others to counteract them is not infinite.

I'm less optimistic than you there. As someone once said, "Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by lio45

Note that everyone in this thread agrees that police often have to act as social workers in practice, and that "shoot first and ask questions later" is incompatible with that role. It should be easy to have everyone on the same general page, when discussing police reform.

Yes, that is a hopeful consensus, which was only reached because of BLM.

And yet we read condemnation of that movement more than appreciation throughout this thread.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Yes, that is a hopeful consensus, which was only reached because of BLM.

How old is BLM? I had conversations about this exact topic with a cop friend of mine, in my hometown, after I bought my first building, ~15 years ago, a rundown downtown SRO full of mental health cases. (Think DTES, just one such building instead of several contiguous blocks of them.)

(The experience of operating that building in the condition I bought it for a little while is the reason why I know that in Sherbrooke, the "insane asylum" / mental health ward is the 8th level of the southwest pavillion of the Hôtel-Dieu on South Bowen Street. In the first year, I had many tenants alternating between staying there and staying in their room in my building.)

At the time, I hadn't ever heard of BLM, yet I knew that people with severe mental health problems couldn't legally be interned anymore against their will, and had to be released as soon as they asked, and then the cops would be the ones dealing with them, rinse and repeat. Again, this was 15 years ago.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by lio45

How old is BLM? I had conversations about this exact topic with a cop friend of mine, in my hometown, after I bought my first building, ~15 years ago, a rundown downtown SRO full of mental health cases. (Think DTES, just one such building instead of several contiguous blocks of them.)

(The experience of operating that building in the condition I bought it for a little while is the reason why I know that in Sherbrooke, the "insane asylum" / mental health ward is the 8th level of the southwest pavillion of the Hôtel-Dieu on South Bowen Street. In the first year, I had many tenants alternating between staying there and staying in their room in my building.)

At the time, I hadn't ever heard of BLM, yet I knew that people with severe mental health problems couldn't legally be interned anymore against their will, and had to be released as soon as they asked, and then the cops would be the ones dealing with them, rinse and repeat. Again, this was 15 years ago.

Yes, and BLM has brought that understanding to a critical mass, which is now leading to actual change. The degree and appropriateness of implementation isn’t yet fully known, but those who have been activated by this movement will keep pushing.

[lio45]

I don't see that BLM had much effect. If anything, they're turning off people.

Every time an event happened (Montreal cops shooting dead that homeless guy with severe mental health issues who was wielding a hammer, etc.) it's been adding to the ever-increasing voices demanding cops be given some mandatory social work training... which, IIRC, became a reality in many police depts before BLM was on anyone's radar (or even, before BLM was even born; not sure exactly when it began).

It's weird to think that it must be "B"LM that can fix the issue of white Montreal cops needlessly killing a mentally ill white homeless Montrealer. What a strange foreign import.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Yes, and BLM has brought that understanding to a critical mass, which is now leading to actual change.

Ah yes, the epiphany leading to a new messianic fundamentalism which can only be accomplished with the type of missionary white saviour zeal that only a woke individual such as yourself seeking salvation, redemption and a place in paradise is capable of doing.

The neo-religious symbology on display here is truly breathtaking..........

Let's just concentrate on treating each other with normal human decency shall we. This will elevate all of society without the need for any messy revolutions.........

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Ah yes, the epiphany leading to a new messianic fundamentalism which can only be accomplished with the type of missionary white saviour zeal that only a woke individual such as yourself seeking salvation, redemption and a place in paradise is capable of doing.

The neo-religious symbology on display here is truly breathtaking..........

Let's just concentrate on treating each other with normal human decency shall we. This will elevate all of society without the need for any messy revolutions.........

Whatever you’re projecting on to me and this movement is odd, a melodramatic reaction.

Were you brought up religiously and now carry some sort of complex around that?

What are you defending against, internally?

I wasn’t brought up religiously so I tend not to think in those terms.