VIA Rail

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Politics aside, what's the issue with TKL? The highways in the area are congested. Companies in Kitchener and London have been screaming for a connection to Pearson. The airport authority is supportive because it doesn't want to waste slots on flights to London. And the whole project was going to build on the Kitchener RER work.



I am not sure about this. I think there will always be a segment for whom the level of analysis done isn't enough. It's also the nature of any investment this large that it's going to take years, see cost overruns and scope increases. Canadians just don't seem to have the ambition and patience to see these things through.

Hopefully, HFR comes in at the typical level of Canadian mediocrity. Would be good to get from Ottawa to a Toronto in 3.5 hrs.

I think most of what the companies/residents want can (and likely will over the next decade or so) be accomplished with an enhanced GO service (which is how other countries handle transportation at those distances). A parallel HSR service with similar travel times doesn’t offer a whole lot more benefit for most users (and therefore would be hard to offer with any sort of frequency).

The cities along the route are relatively small, have very low density, are very car oriented, have a relatively small percentage of their economic activity and population in the downtown core and have no metro system to feed the line. That is not the kind of environment where HSR works.

London to Toronto some sense, but with such a low population (and only an hour improvement over the existing Via service) it is really hard to justify the 10s of billions in cost.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think most of what the companies/residents want can (and likely will over the next decade or so) be accomplished with an enhanced GO service (which is how other countries handle transportation at those distances). A parallel HSR service with similar travel times doesn’t offer a whole lot more benefit for most users (and therefore would be hard to offer with any sort of frequency).

The current GO train to Kitchener is 2 hrs from Union. RER might get Toronto-Kitchener closer to 1.5 hrs. Here's the travel times from the recommended 250 kph electrified option (Figure 3.4 from the report):



That's 48 mins from Toronto to Kitchener. And 73 mins from Toronto to London. I wouldn't call that similar to any GO service, current or future.

Originally Posted by acottawa

The cities along the route are relatively small, have very low density, are very car oriented, have a relatively small percentage of their economic activity and population in the downtown core and have no metro system to feed the line. That is not the kind of environment where HSR works.

Waterloo has LRT and London has BRT. But that aside, what was recommended was also not a traditional HSR line. The 300 kph was ruled out. It was a 250 kph line that basically built on the planned GO RER work and then added a Stratford and St. Mary's bypass (Figure 3.2). That was really not that intense of an infrastructure development as was portrayed. The new corridor to be built was 62 km.



I'm also not sure why density matters. It's not like HSR goes through exclusively urban areas in elsewhere in the world. It's intercity rail. More to the point, between Kitchener, London, Toronto and Pearson airport, we know there's substantial amount of travel between these points. Enough that the investment was going to at least generate a positive benefits case ratio (Table 3.5).

Originally Posted by acottawa

London to Toronto some sense, but with such a low population (and only an hour improvement over the existing Via service) it is really hard to justify the 10s of billions in cost.

Except that it wasn't "10s of billions". This portrayal came from looking at the most expensive options for the entire proposal. 300 kph train till Windsor. The direct capital cost (without contingency) of the recommended 250 kph electrified Toronto-London segment was $4110M in 2021$ (Table 3.1). This was the investment required over and above investments made for GO RER. Including a 50% contingency and various sundry like soft costs their estimate was $8B in 2014$ (Table 3.4).

Report: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/publications/high-speed-rail-in-ontario-final-report/

Preliminary routing assessment: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/publica...io-high-speed-rail-feasibility-study.pdf

You're illustrating my point really well though. It's incredible how easy it is to spin a large capital project as wasteful. This was arguably one of the most conservative intercity rail projects ever proposed. Not a km of new corridor between Toronto and Kitchener. HSR only had to pay for 60 km of electrification and a bit of grade separation beyond Mount Pleasant and additional track to bypass stations en route. The only new corridor was the 62 km Kitchener-London corridor that runs roughly parallel to a 6-lane 401 that is routinely packed and the province has considered expanding. When something like this can be spun as wasteful, I really wonder how much hope there is for any HSR proposal that requires hundreds of kms of new corridor.

[ssiguy]

Another problem with any form of higher speed rail is that local politicians put pressure on VIA and Ottawa for their inconsequential town to get a stop on the route.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Another problem with any form of higher speed rail is that local politicians put pressure on VIA and Ottawa for their inconsequential town to get a stop on the route.

If you look at Japan's Shinkansen, you can have HSR stations every 20-30 km without compromising the journey times of the vast majority of trips. At the same time, the presence of different service types with significantly different average speeds opens up price differentiation opportunities like in Japan, where faster HSR services are more expensive than the milkrun ones...

[Nouvellecosse]

That would be such an amazing project. The current GO service to Kitchener is "ok" for peak period commutes when car travel is slow due to congestion, but outside of that taking literally twice as long as driving doesn't seem very appealing.

[JHikka]

Union-Kitchener in 48 minutes would be difficult to top and would do a ton for the KWC area as a whole. Depending on transport options in KWC upon arrival I would absolutely consider it if the travel time was competitive with driving.

Originally Posted by nouvelleescosse

The current GO service to Kitchener is "ok" for peak period commutes when car travel is slow due to congestion, but outside of that taking literally twice as long as driving doesn't seem very appealing.

I feel the same way about Lakeshore East service these days. Riding to Oshawa is nice during peak but feels slow at any other time.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Another problem with any form of higher speed rail is that local politicians put pressure on VIA and Ottawa for their inconsequential town to get a stop on the route.

Worse. A bunch of rural councillors campaigned against the 62 km Kitchener-London corridor because some farms maybe severed.

https://woodstocksentinelreview.com/news/local-news/farmers-hope-high-speed-proposal-derailed

The Green Party candidate in London ran against HSR in the provincial election. Just imagine that.

This is why nothing can get done in this country. Building anything near where there's anybody means NIMBYs. And the rural NIMBYs are worse. Thanks to them, we're talking down wind turbines that were paid for.

This is also why I think spending more on Lakeshore is pointless. Aside from freight, any effort to straighten and grade separate any part of it means dealing with a hornet's nest of rural NIMBYs and a whole bunch of sympathetic rural MPs and MPPs. Keeping them happy would require every goat path to be grade separated, driving costs up massively.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I don't even think the interprovincial part is the problem. Why would Quebec say no to GO trains from Ottawa to Montreal? Why would Ontario say no to Exo trains serving Cornwall and Ottawa? It's not like anybody cares who is running the trains or what the livery is. All they want is service.

I think GO should run HFR through Ottawa, to Montreal. GO should build the Kingston hub too and run trains through Cornwall to Montreal. Leave Exo to run services on both the north and south shore out of Montreal and the long haul to Quebec City and Drummondville.

GO legally cannot operate outside of Ontario. What is the process of making it legal?

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

GO legally cannot operate outside of Ontario. What is the process of making it legal?

The same process that enables ONTC to run buses to Winnipeg, I imagine.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

GO legally cannot operate outside of Ontario. What is the process of making it legal?

The exact same as what OC Transpo used on the Trillium Line to register Capital Railways as a federally regulated rail operator, so that they could operate on a rail corridor that crosses into another province.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Union-Kitchener in 48 minutes would be difficult to top and would do a ton for the KWC area as a whole. Depending on transport options in KWC upon arrival I would absolutely consider it if the travel time was competitive with driving.

Most important to businesses was the trip to Pearson reduced to 22 min from Kitchener and 47 mins from London. It would absolutely change the nature of business in Southwestern Ontario and reduce the pressure to locate as many jobs in the GTA.

Combine the LRT in KWC and BRT in London, with HSR and the nature of KWC and London would change overnight.

Also, kinda shows the problem with the delineation between intercity and regional commuter rail. If service like this was built, there's no point extending RER past Mount Pleasant. Guelph and Kitchener would do just fine with 1-2 HSR trains a day connecting to all-stop services at a few stations beyond Georgetown. At that point is this intercity rail or commuter rail? Yet, if VIA was to operate in this route, they might not consider a commuter friendly schedule or train layout.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

The same process that enables ONTC to run buses to Winnipeg, I imagine.

No.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The exact same as what OC Transpo used on the Trillium Line to register Capital Railways as a federally regulated rail operator, so that they could operate on a rail corridor that crosses into another province.

Exactly. It is not simply say you are doing it, you must go through the red tape. The real question is whether GO will get to a point where it is advantageous for them to do that. I just don't see it. I welcome them to prove me wrong.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Exactly. It is not simply say you are doing it, you must go through the red tape.

The point is that the "red tape" is not nearly as onerous as you suggest it is. If a smaller agency like OC Transpo can do it, GO can do it too.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The real question is whether GO will get to a point where it is advantageous for them to do that. I just don't see it. I welcome them to prove me wrong.

They aren't operating anywhere near a provincial boundary now. If that changes, they'll do it.

You don't seem to be aware of what OC Transpo did. You're presuming GO would change the entire organization into a federally regulated railway. That is not what OC Transpo did. They registered a separate federally regulated railway for just the Trillium Line. GO could do this for any inter-provincial corridor they end up running, such as HFR. Nothing changes for the rest of GO.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The point is that the "red tape" is not nearly as onerous as you suggest it is. If a smaller agency like OC Transpo can do it, GO can do it too.

They aren't operating anywhere near a provincial boundary now. If that changes, they'll do it.

You don't seem to be aware of what OC Transpo did. You're presuming GO would change the entire organization into a federally regulated railway. That is not what OC Transpo did. They registered a separate federally regulated railway for just the Trillium Line. GO could do this for any inter-provincial corridor they end up running, such as HFR. Nothing changes for the rest of GO.

GO could do lots of things. The reality is this is not even on their radar. As far as I have heard through their various long term plans they have released, nowhere do they even hint at a connection to Ottawa. If they were to even hint at that, I would give what you are suggesting some credit. Reality is, we all want things done better, but as of right now, there are no long term plans to do much more than HFR and new Corridor fleet.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

GO could do lots of things. The reality is this is not even on their radar.

Nobody suggested it was.

You like to fantasize on here.

Well so so the rest of us. And we're discussing why GO is substantially better placed to deliver intercity service in Ontario than VIA.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Nobody suggested it was.

You like to fantasize on here.

Well so so the rest of us. And we're discussing why GO is substantially better placed to deliver intercity service in Ontario than VIA.

But I am expected to let you when you won't let me?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

But I am expected to let you when you won't let me?

Who has stopped you from pages of trolling ever?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Who has stopped you from pages of trolling ever?

Well, first off, I am not trolling. I am genuine with what I post. A troll isn't.

You and others have tried to tell me I am an idiot or worse at suggesting anything. Now, if you and others were to engage and discuss what is needed, instead of just shut it down and think it is pure fantasy, then I would not think that.

Frankly, most, if not everything posted here is fantasy.

[Bread_Kaczynski]

I like this idea of having Go and Exo take over the Corridor, but why not take it a step further and just let the private sector take over intercity rail entirely? I know that privitization can be problematic, but if there's a strong business case for HFR, I could easily see Brightline or another company do it faster better than VIA. Better yet, they wouldn't be subject to the same kinds of political pressures as VIA is now. And let's face it, if GO ever runs trains to Ottawa, it's going to have to deal with the same political landscape as VIA. A private company won't be held hostage by railfans butthurt over not getting the train stopping at their tin can. They'll also be incentivized to do things that maximize speed over nickel-and-diming the route. And they certainly won't run routes like The Canadian that just hemorrhage money.

The fact is, the most ambitious rail projects of recent years have been done by Brightline and Texas Central. HFR is VIA's last hope, and seeing as how they've been cutting routes since day one, I'd say it's rather unrealistic to expect they'll change their tune after 40 years. As people in this thread have pointed out, the political capital from improved intercity rail just isn't worth the investment.

TLDR: scrap VIA/sell it to Brightline so we can actually have a shot of rail worthy of a G7 country.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

GO could do lots of things. The reality is this is not even on their radar. As far as I have heard through their various long term plans they have released, nowhere do they even hint at a connection to Ottawa. If they were to even hint at that, I would give what you are suggesting some credit. Reality is, we all want things done better, but as of right now, there are no long term plans to do much more than HFR and new Corridor fleet.

Why are you concerned about this not being on GO's radar when all you do is argue for rail routes which are not on VIA's radar?