Winnipeg Roads & Infrastructure

[MG922]

Originally Posted by The Jabroni

So, from what I understand, the study is for the bridge(s) only, and not the route itself, since that study was already done, yes?

Had it not been for the dispute about the old base between the federal government and first nations, this project would have been done by now, and the bridges redesigned.

But from what I can tell, since this whole thing was only a study anyway, the bridges are in need of repair or replace regardless.

Functional design has been done, which is very high level (ie. determining which areas need to be addressed, levels of service, which roads maintain access, etc).

This is for preliminary design, which builds on the functional design, and where a lot of road alignment, bridge alignments, options for rehabbing or replacing the bridge are figured out. Prelim is basically deciding what's going to be built.

Detailed design follows that and that's where specific details are designed, and the construction drawings are produced.

This project is for prelim design of all the roadworks and bridge options, whether to rehab (and add additional lanes) or to fully replace one or both structures.

You're partly right tho, if Kapyong wasn't in the courts, it probably would have been done sooner.

[buzzg]

I have a feeling that they need to start from scratch on these bridges, hence the mention of what to do with traffic. The bridges are very old, and are constantly under construction. seems like they have to redo the seams every year.

[Biff]

^^^ The bridges are slated for re-configuration. A massive portion of the overall budget - i heard approaching $100 million.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by MG922

Functional design has been done, which is very high level (ie. determining which areas need to be addressed, levels of service, which roads maintain access, etc).

This is for preliminary design, which builds on the functional design, and where a lot of road alignment, bridge alignments, options for rehabbing or replacing the bridge are figured out. Prelim is basically deciding what's going to be built.

Detailed design follows that and that's where specific details are designed, and the construction drawings are produced.

This project is for prelim design of all the roadworks and bridge options, whether to rehab (and add additional lanes) or to fully replace one or both structures.

You're partly right tho, if Kapyong wasn't in the courts, it probably would have been done sooner.

Very informative, thank you.

[The Jabroni]

Originally Posted by MG922

Functional design has been done, which is very high level (ie. determining which areas need to be addressed, levels of service, which roads maintain access, etc).

This is for preliminary design, which builds on the functional design, and where a lot of road alignment, bridge alignments, options for rehabbing or replacing the bridge are figured out. Prelim is basically deciding what's going to be built.

Detailed design follows that and that's where specific details are designed, and the construction drawings are produced.

This project is for prelim design of all the roadworks and bridge options, whether to rehab (and add additional lanes) or to fully replace one or both structures.

You're partly right tho, if Kapyong wasn't in the courts, it probably would have been done sooner.

That is excellent and highly informative. Thank you!

[CoryB]

WOW the gravity of closing even some lanes on the St James Bridge while replacing the spans is going to be a huge challenge.

[MG922]

Originally Posted by CoryB

WOW the gravity of closing even some lanes on the St James Bridge while replacing the spans is going to be a huge challenge.

IMO, that will likely be the biggest challenge for the project: figuring out how to either rehab both bridges and add lanes, or rehab one bridge and add lanes, and build a new second bridge. All while maintaining 2 lanes of traffic each way.

Originally Posted by buzzg

I have a feeling that they need to start from scratch on these bridges, hence the mention of what to do with traffic. The bridges are very old, and are constantly under construction. seems like they have to redo the seams every year.

IIRC, the substructure for one of them is from the 1930s, but it has a newer deck. Some joint replacement work and approach work was done last year on the SB bridge, but I believe that was just stopgap maintenance until all this design and study work is completed.

[bomberjet]

What's going to happen is they will update the functional plan, as part of the prelim design as MG922 mentioned. Making sure the AT paths are to current standards. That sort of thing.

They had already proposed a plan for those bridges during the functional design. Similar, but lower level of service for Academy. Prelim design will build on that, figuring out construction staging, etc.

Maybe they'll switch up the plan a bit based on newer information, such as Trudeau's funding source. Ie: potentially more money available.

[biguc]

Why do we replace bridges so often in this city? Edmonton is replacing their first bridge in my lifetime. And we're talking about replacing a bridge built in the '80s after replacing a half dozen bridges since I moved here in the '90s. Tell me again how we have no money for rapid transit.

[bomberjet]

I don't think the city has replaced many bridges. Disraeli are the only ones I could think of and those were rotting away. One of the girders collapsed when they were tearing it down. Louise brigde is coming up and it's the oldest bridge in town. Arlington is also crap. It's mostly the steel structures and they're rotting.

St James bridges are similar steel girders. Is the whole thing going to be replaced, piers and all? Or just the deck with widening and re-configuration where needed? I didn't read through the RFP.

Most of the bridge works in town are deck replacements. Every bridge built anywhere in the last couple hundred years needs deck replacement or rehab after 25 years or so.

[bomberjet]

Quick look at the RFP. SB bridge constructed in 1936, NB constructed in 1962. Looking at either major rehabs or replacements. Saving the piers will go a long way here. New girders are likely to go in, I would assume.

Bridges are designed for a 75 year life span.

This outlines the bridge scope of work. Looking at any and all options it seems.

D6.30 Bridge Structure Design
(a) The future widening of Kenaston Boulevard will be constricted by the current alignment and width of the two bridges. The bridges will require widening and realignment to achieve the goals of the future Kenaston widening including accommodating walking and cycling. A minimum of three options for either rehabilitation or a replacement structure shall be investigated for both bridges and shall include but not be limited to:
(i) Examining various span arrangements possible.
(ii) Examining various bridge configurations to provide adequate cross-sectional dimensions in terms of shy distances, lane widths, and pedestrian and cycling accommodation.
(iii) Examining various superstructure options.
(iv) Examining various substructure options.
(v) Examining removal of Academy ramps.
(vi) Examining walking and cycling connectivity from Wellington Crescent and Wolseley Avenue to Route 90
(vii) Comparing total bridge costs for various span lengths.
(viii) Comparing total bridge costs for a combination of rehabilitation and reconstruction.
(ix) Considering use of conventional reinforced concrete retaining walls and mechanically stabilized earth (MSE) walls versus bridge spans and make cost comparisons.
(x) Including consideration of constructability, inspectability, maintainability, and future expandability.

[buzzg]

^Yeah, remember when that American engineer came here from Minni (after their bridge collapse) and was horrified and the condition of the bridge...

I'm not an engineer or traffic planner, but I'd almost guess you'd have to find a way to add one lane onto one of the spans first to keep 2 lanes in each direction going while you redo the other (with 4 lanes). Then do the other side. Maybe they could do it how the QEW bridge is with the bike lane actually being part of the road, just with a jersey barrier up. Use it as a lane during construction, then put up a barrier to make a bike lane after. Maybe you even have to close access to Academy during construction and force people to come from Kenaston or Sherbrook, so you can maintain the busier access to Kenaston.

I'd really like this whole study/project to include a look at what to do with the old rail bridge. The city made a horrific mistake in allowing the old rail ROW to be developed instead of reserving it for RT/AT (those back lane condos are truly awful), but you could convert the rail bridge to an AT bridge, have the path take Wellington to meet up with the Omand's Creek path, and what REALLY needs to happen is create an AT path on the west side of Lindsay, all the way from Wellington to Taylor, which would then connect it to the Waverley and Kenaston AT paths. It would be so simple - the space is there. And there's already a tree line to buffer it.

See my map:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_7...RE&usp=sharing

[MG922]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Quick look at the RFP. SB bridge constructed in 1936, NB constructed in 1962. Looking at either major rehabs or replacements. Saving the piers will go a long way here. New girders are likely to go in, I would assume.

Bridges are designed for a 75 year life span.

Piers are the oldest part, be interesting to see if they can be part of another 75 year bridge with more lanes than originally intended.

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by MG922

Piers are the oldest part, be interesting to see if they can be part of another 75 year bridge with more lanes than originally intended.

Ya.. Depends on condition. Staying out of the river would help everything was my thought.

[MG922]

Originally Posted by buzzg

I'd really like this whole study/project to include a look at what to do with the old rail bridge. The city made a horrific mistake in allowing the old rail ROW to be developed instead of reserving it for RT/AT (those back lane condos are truly awful), but you could convert the rail bridge to an AT bridge, have the path take Wellington to meet up with the Omand's Creek path, and what REALLY needs to happen is create an AT path on the west side of Lindsay, all the way from Wellington to Taylor, which would then connect it to the Waverley and Kenaston AT paths. It would be so simple - the space is there. And there's already a tree line to buffer it.

Would be nice, I've had the same ideas. The functional does call for AT from the bridge to Taylor, including connection to Wolseley West. Also, that bridge is privately owned, so the City would have to buy it back. IIRC, the bridge was owned by a principal of HTFC, but he passed away, not sure who owns it now. A few years ago there was a plan to build condos on that bridge!

[buzzg]

I remember that proposal - it was cool, but I really can't see it ever happening. Would that even be safe? Kind of crazy to me they would sell a bridge in the first place.

[pacman]

I know it would truly be the end of the world and there would be riots in the streets of Winnipeg, but seriously, do we have to maintain two lanes of traffic each way for the duration of the project??? The costs and schedule impact to accommodate that "need" are way higher than I would think makes sense.

Believe me, I KNOW that traffic would be horrendous and it would be a huge inconvenience, but man it would be so much cheaper and be completed way quicker if people just accepted that traffic will be a disaster for a while. Every time there's a major road project in this city, the first week in that area is crazy backed up traffic with road rage out the wazoo, but by the second week people learn and adjust their patterns to avoid the area unless necessary. It would be the same here, if there's one lane of traffic each direction long term then volumes will go way down. I understand that traffic needs to go somewhere else and other routes will have more congestion, but if we can shave months to a year off the overall schedule simply by standing up to the whiners then I think that's more than a fair trade.

[cllew]

Originally Posted by buzzg

I remember that proposal - it was cool, but I really can't see it ever happening. Would that even be safe? Kind of crazy to me they would sell a bridge in the first place.

CN had the choice to pay a contractor to take it down or sell it for cash when they abandoned the Oak Point subdivision.

As they are in the business to make money they took the cash from Alex Katz, a partner in the firm Stechesen Katz. (no relation to the former mayor as far as I know)

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by MG922

IMO, that will likely be the biggest challenge for the project: figuring out how to either rehab both bridges and add lanes, or rehab one bridge and add lanes, and build a new second bridge. All while maintaining 2 lanes of traffic each way.

There will be no easy way to maintain SB to EB on Academy through this construction. Something is going to have to give and that would likely be the top of the list.

Maybe take the NB to EB flow, build what will become an AT bridge at project end from the NW corner of Wellington Park to the SW corner of St James Cemetery onto Tylerhurst St with a light to access Portage Ave.

Keep the existing SB span open, build a new NB span. Move a single lane of NB traffic onto the SB span and temporarily extend the light cycles for NB traffic through the construction zone and Ness to help get them away from the area quickly.

Route 90 between Ness and Grant could also be temporarily designated as a "no truck route" to help take some of the pressure off.

Once the new NB span is ready it could likely be pressed into 4 lane service for the short term by pinching in lanes and maintain the temporary NB-EB access.

--

The other big question is what impact will all this have on the Fire Department operations from that site.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

I don't think the city has replaced many bridges. Disraeli are the only ones I could think of and those were rotting away. One of the girders collapsed when they were tearing it down. Louise brigde is coming up and it's the oldest bridge in town. Arlington is also crap. It's mostly the steel structures and they're rotting.

St James bridges are similar steel girders. Is the whole thing going to be replaced, piers and all? Or just the deck with widening and re-configuration where needed? I didn't read through the RFP.

Most of the bridge works in town are deck replacements. Every bridge built anywhere in the last couple hundred years needs deck replacement or rehab after 25 years or so.

Since the mid 90s, the city has done Osborne, St Mary's (2 bridges), Maryland, Disraeli, and Provencher.

Provencher, St. Mary's, and Disraeli were all complete replacements, as far as I can tell.

Like I said, in Edmonton it's remarkable that they're rebuilding a bridge. Here, it's weird when we aren't. I know Winnipeg ran a lot of infrastructure into the ground in the '90s, and unlike us Edmonton doesn't salt its streets. But surely there's a point where we cool our torrid pace of bridge replacement.