Speech pattern and typographical variations across Canada

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Honestly, Doug...is this all an act? Never have I seen someone (on an internet forum or social media) display such obvious grounding in and adoration of Atlas Shrugged. Virtually every post you make essentially appears to be an extended commentary on the central tenet of your philosophy, summed up so neatly by Thatcher: "And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families."

Seems to me that Canadian English evolved slightly differently than American English did, though both variations were indeed at times either preserved or changed by diktat by various figures of cultural authority. Still, the idea that our unique spelling conventions are a government plot is, uh, a bit wacky. Even for you.

Is it really that mystifying to anyone that Canadian English spelling would be reflective of an evolution based on British and American influences?

[milomilo]

I didn't realize (or realise) there was such a thing as 'Canadian English', and in fact I refuse to believe that there is, it's just an excuse. Like with the metric system, Canada can't decide between whether they want to be American or not and sit on a poor compromise.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Is it really that mystifying to anyone that Canadian English spelling would be reflective of an evolution based on British and American influences?

And that the blending of the two influences that prevails today is what makes it uniquely Canadian?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Is it really that mystifying to anyone that Canadian English spelling would be reflective of an evolution based on British and American influences?

No, but...

Let's be honest here. The British influence is really more about prestige and artificial distinction from the US. Canada didn't use British spellings as much until well into the 20th century. If you read old Canadian materials from 1940, you'll see a lot of "color". Canadians spend about 10x more time dealing with Americans than Brits and American spelling is generally more modern and a bit shorter (and I say this as somebody who cringes a little at spellings like "thru").

There's minimal cost to having the different spellings. It only "looks bad" because of arbitrary social convention. There were many different spellings of Shakespeare that were good enough for him to use during his lifetime but the Grade 5 English teachers know there's only one true way!

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Just because you aren't aware of something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

https://www.thecanadianpress.com/wri...ess-stylebook/

Watching a bit less American TV can be good for you! You should try it sometime.

I'm well aware of style guides. They're context specific and not "rules" for the language. They're often made up rules to fit a certain agenda. The Canadian Press used to have a section on their website where people could ask questions and they would make "announcements." About 15 years ago they kept reminding their users that "fueling" had to spelled "fuelling." Why would that be? No one before that used that ridiculous spelling and many still don't because it's fucking wrong! In their attempt to be different than Americans as much as possible they introduced a lot of very nonstandard spellings and grammatical usages. If you want to follow their and Katherine Barber's rules go ahead but don't try telling the rest of us that those rules are standard or correct. You need to learn a whole lot more about this stuff before you go off insulting people.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Pinus

No, he is referring to how proper spelling works in Canada. We don't live in the USofA. If you insist on being purposefully ignorant to Canadian culture and adore the American way of doing things so much, I would suggest you consider a move south of the border. They would love you wwaaayyy down yonder y'all.

What a fucking idiot. Canada isn't Britain so why don't you move back there if you think it's so great.

[shreddog]

Since this has turned into the "Great Canadian Spelling Thread"**, I'll throw my 2 cents in.

In dealing with the Federal government of Canada for a number of decades, I have yet to find an absolute definition of what constitutes "Official Canadian Spelling". While there are GoC style and GoC translation guides, the fact is even the GoC isn't consistent. TBS directives on travel spell it "travelling" whereas when the SACC guide mentions these same directives, they spell it as "traveling". SSC security guides talk about "labeling" of information whereas CSE guides talk about "labelling". And almost no one talks about "programmes" in the GoC, whereas no one talks about "programs" in the UK (though everyone does in the US).

While there are norms and standards, the truth is that I have yet to see an "Official and steadfast" guide for Canadian spelling - there are only accepted norms which are continually changing. While I tend to follow the british approach (mainly as I do a fair bit of work there), I also don't get hung up when a Canadian spells it as "center" or "favor".

What's next, should we berate those who of us who call it a "trunk" instead of a "boot" simply cause "that's what the Yanks call it"?

** Obviously this distraction is a ploy by Liberal sympathisers - or is it sympathizers? - to steer discussion away from JWR!

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

I'm well aware of style guides. They're context specific and not "rules" for the language. They're often made up rules to fit a certain agenda. The Canadian Press used to have a section on their website where people could ask questions and they would make "announcements." About 15 years ago they kept reminding their users that "fueling" had to spelled "fuelling." Why would that be? No one before that used that ridiculous spelling and many still don't because it's fucking wrong! In their attempt to be different than Americans as much as possible they introduced a lot of very nonstandard spellings and grammatical usages. If you want to follow their and Katherine Barber's rules go ahead but don't try telling the rest of us that those rules are standard or correct. You need to learn a whole lot more about this stuff before you go off insulting people.

uR rit; spelllung roulss Я stoupid&

[Pinus]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

What a fucking idiot. Canada isn't Britain so why don't you move back there if you think it's so great.

We are also not the US either, so maybe you should accept that there are different way of spelling from both the Poms and the Yanks.

Your beloved Yanks decided to change the English language to a degree because they wanted to show themselves as being different from England. Why did they do that? Talk about acting self-righteous and bombastic. And it wasn't just in spelling. Why did they refuse to adopt the metric system when most of the rest of the world did? Why are they allowed to be so special and unique? If you find it okay for them to have done so, why shouldn't Canada want to differentiate ourselves from the Yanks?

Talk about being not just an idiot, but a hypocrite as well.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by acottawa

uR rit; spelllung roulss Я stoupid&

Taken directly from the Princess Margaret Cancer Centre website:

"As the largest, most comprehensive acute leukemia treatment centre in Canada"

In the UK this would be written as:
"As the largest, most comprehensive acute leukaemia treatment centre ..."

In the US this sentence would be written as:
"As the largest, most comprehensive acute leukemia treatment center ..."

Which set of spelllung roulss should apply to the UHNPMCC website?

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by Pinus

We are also not the US either, so maybe you should accept that there are different way of spelling from both the Poms and the Yanks.

Simple Q then, where is the "Official Canadian spelling" defined? Metric is easy, spelling and grammar/er ain't.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by shreddog

Simple Q then, where is the "Official Canadian spelling" defined? Metric is easy, spelling and grammar/er ain't.

The Termium database of the Translation Bureau of Public Works Canada is probably as official as it gets within the GofC. In the spelling chapter of its Canadian Style guidance, it says this:

The recommended spelling authority is a reliable Canadian dictionary such as the Canadian Oxford or Gage Canadian Dictionary. It is important to choose one and use it consistently. Both publications are based on research into Canadian usage, contain specifically Canadian terms and reflect the usage of most federal government departments and agencies more closely than do American or British dictionaries. When they list two spellings for a word in the same entry, choose the one entered first. When two spellings are given separate entries, choose the primary spelling, which is the one followed by the definition (the variant simply refers the reader to the primary entry). For scientific and technical words not in Gage or the Canadian Oxford, check Webster’s Third New International Dictionary.

In light of these recommendations, use the following variant spellings: endings in ize, ization, our, re, single l (as in instil) and ce; single l in words such as enrolment; ll in travelled, etc.; and e for digraphs (exceptions: aesthetic and onomatopoeic). (my bold)

Note
Respect the official spelling of names of U.S. institutions, e.g. Department of Defense, Center for Disease Control.

The rules and lists of words given in this chapter are intended to supplement, not replace the use of the spelling authority you choose. The important point with respect to spelling is to be consistent in your written work unless a good reason exists for using variant or archaic spellings.


https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tc...t3&info0=3#zz3

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by shreddog

Simple Q then, where is the "Official Canadian spelling" defined? Metric is easy, spelling and grammar/er ain't.

The most common approach is to use a dictionary (or a web source derived from a dictionary). Gage and Oxford are the most common Canadian dictionaries and both would give similar answers.

The government of Canada style guide which somebody linked above advises:


The recommended spelling authority is a reliable Canadian dictionary such as the Canadian Oxford or Gage Canadian Dictionary. It is important to choose one and use it consistently. Both publications are based on research into Canadian usage, contain specifically Canadian terms and reflect the usage of most federal government departments and agencies more closely than do American or British dictionaries. When they list two spellings for a word in the same entry, choose the one entered first. When two spellings are given separate entries, choose the primary spelling, which is the one followed by the definition (the variant simply refers the reader to the primary entry).

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by shreddog

Since this has turned into the "Great Canadian Spelling Thread"**, I'll throw my 2 cents in.

In dealing with the Federal government of Canada for a number of decades, I have yet to find an absolute definition of what constitutes "Official Canadian Spelling". While there are GoC style and GoC translation guides, the fact is even the GoC isn't consistent. TBS directives on travel spell it "travelling" whereas when the SACC guide mentions these same directives, they spell it as "traveling". SSC security guides talk about "labeling" of information whereas CSE guides talk about "labelling". And almost no one talks about "programmes" in the GoC, whereas no one talks about "programs" in the UK (though everyone does in the US).

While there are norms and standards, the truth is that I have yet to see an "Official and steadfast" guide for Canadian spelling - there are only accepted norms which are continually changing. While I tend to follow the british approach (mainly as I do a fair bit of work there), I also don't get hung up when a Canadian spells it as "center" or "favor".

What's next, should we berate those who of us who call it a "trunk" instead of a "boot" simply cause "that's what the Yanks call it"?

** Obviously this distraction is a ploy by Liberal sympathisers - or is it sympathizers? - to steer discussion away from JWR!

No modern English dictionary is prescriptive in nature. They're all descriptive providing a record of the most common spellings and meanings at the time of publication. That's why you'll see variant spellings for some words. If one were to believe someone such as Pinus they would never expect to see that. He and Acajack want to politicize spelling and probably more broadly language, whereas most people just want consistency. Academic journals, for example, don't give a rat's ass if you use British or American spelling and grammar as long as you're consistent.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

No modern English dictionary is prescriptive in nature. They're all descriptive providing a record of the most common spellings and meanings at the time of publication. That's why you'll see variant spellings for some words. If one were to believe someone such as Pinus they would never expect to see that. He and Acajack want to politicize spelling and probably more broadly language, whereas most people just want consistency. Academic journals, for example, don't give a rat's ass if you use British or American spelling and grammar as long as you're consistent.

In most dictionaries the first variant they list is the recommended spelling.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Pinus

As a Western Canadian, I unfortunately would have to agree with most of this. It's unfortunate that many Western Canadians, particularly from Alberta, have to act in such an abhorrent and uneducated manner when involving themselves in many discussions. Just take for example their lack of care and interest for proper spelling, as seen in this thread. They remind me of Americans in that send; people who just don't give two flying figs about matters that help define this country as an individual entity, not one that is just a replicate of the land of guns that is physically attached to the south of us.

In saying this, we are not all like that. It's just that there seem to be far too many of those kinds of people, and it's reflecting poorly on the rest of us, sadly.

There is no such thing as proper spelling. Are you religious too? This type of rigid adherence to pointless ideology is what brings division.

[Pinus]

Originally Posted by milomilo

There is no such thing as proper spelling. Are you religious too? This type of rigid adherence to pointless ideology is what brings division.

This is a classic example.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Pinus

This is a classic example.

It's funny how you act as if you are the intelligent one here because you are promoting 'proper spelling' as if it is something fundamental. It isn't. Language is a man made concept and hence there can be no universal right or wrong of it. But carry on the sanctimonius shite if it makes you feel better.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by milomilo

It's funny how you act as if you are the intelligent one here because you are promoting 'proper spelling' as if it is something fundamental. It isn't. Language is a man made concept and hence there can be no universal right or wrong of it. But carry on the sanctimonius shite if it makes you feel better.

Yet you use standard spelling conventions in your posts, and I assume in your daily life.

[acottawa]

I am not sure why people are trying to put a regional spin on this. The Government of Alberta, University of Alberta, Calgary Herald, Calgary Sun and large companies such as Suncor all use Canadian spelling conventions.