Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[GlassCity]

I know this is anecdotal, but every time I bring up the CFL or the Lions I have at least one person around to say something negative about it and the fact that I watch it. Now I don't care, but I can see how it would get to people. There's a stigma involved with the CFL that doesn't exist with the Whitecaps. And I know you're gonna throw up a bunch of stats Prometheus, but I'm just speaking from personal experience.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

By the way, the Whitecaps were never ahead of the Lions in popularity during the NASL days, a fact already empirically demonstrated (but ignored by you as usual) years ago. Anyways, here is the latest empirical data regarding popularity broken down regionally (to be ignored by you once again, I am sure):

University of Lethbridge (2015):


Source: http://www.reginaldbibby.com/thingsnew.html


Angus Reid Institute (2014):


Source: http://angusreid.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/CFL-Grey-Cup-2014.pdf


Thus, according to the objective data, the CFL is not just significantly ahead of MLS in popularity; the CFL's popularity in BC has actually grown substantially in the last year, while MLS' popularity has stagnated.

Even with neglectful ownership and inept management and the lowest attendance and some of the lamest teams in years, the CFL is not just surviving but thriving in relation to MLS regarding popularity, regional or otherwise.

Now, out of love for all things Vancouver and British Columbia, I sincerely hope the Whitecaps can eventually translate the passion demonstrated by their fans inside the stadium into wider popularity among the general population outside the stadium.

And I look forward to you one day actually providing credible objective data to support such an assertion.

The soccer bowl and the lead up to the soc cer bowl the Whitecaps were not more popular? Let's see your evidence.

I'm not talking today's numbers obviously, but MLS is trending to overtake the CFL.

It was during this short period that soccer interest peaked in Vancouver. The Whitecaps attendance at Empire Stadium grew to regular sellouts, at 32,000. The team also recorded two tracks, with "White is the Colour" becoming a hit on local radio during the run-up to their championship win.
After playing at Vancouver's 32,000-seat Empire Stadium for most of their existence, the team moved into the brand new 60,000-seat BC Place Stadium in 1983. The Whitecaps set a then highest all-time Canadian attendance record of 60,342 spectators for a professional soccer game, on June 20, 1983, Vancouver Whitecaps FC - Seattle Sounders at BC Place.[2] However, the subsequent demise of the NASL in 1984 meant the Whitecaps – along with the other teams in the NASL – were forced to fold.

- Wiki

My prediction is that history will repeat itself.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

And I know you're gonna throw up a bunch of stats Prometheus, but I'm just speaking from personal experience.

Ah yes, personal anecdotes: the gold standard of social science research.

Your comment demonstrates precisely why modern society has developed social science: it pierces through the veil of appearance and reveals the reality behind.

Your subjective observations about what your personal circle of friends and associates say in public (to be distinguished from what they might actually think or do in private) are absolutely meaningless compared to a randomly and anonymously sampled group of thousands of unrelated people within the wider population.

The difference between personal anecdote and a proper survey is the difference between voodoo magic and modern science.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Ah yes, personal anecdotes: the gold standard of social science research.

Your comment demonstrates precisely why modern society has developed social science: it pierces through the veil of appearance and reveals the reality behind.

Your subjective observations about what your personal circle of friends and associates say in public (to be distinguished from what they might actually think or do in private) are absolutely meaningless compared to a randomly and anonymously sampled group of thousands of unrelated people within the wider population.

The difference between personal anecdote and a proper survey is the difference between voodoo magic and modern science.

I agree that it's not scientific but it doesn't mean it's not relevant.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by logan5

I'm not talking today's numbers obviously, but MLS is trending to overtake the CFL.

The empirical data between 2014 and 2015 show that the CFL's lead over MLS is growing, not shrinking, both nationally and in British Columbia. What empirically supported trend are you talking about?

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I agree that it's not scientific but it doesn't mean it's not relevant.

That's exactly what it means. The issue of how many people follow a league in a country or province consisting of millions of individuals spread out over millions of square kilometres is a scientific issue. The only thing relevant to that issue is scientific evidence.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Ah yes, personal anecdotes: the gold standard of social science research.

Well put my friend

One thing I cannot stand is when someone argues with good old fashion Ignorance. You can provide them with all the credible stats,facts,quotes,sources and articles you want and they will disagree yet give you no reasonable proof to back up the claims. Just personal beliefs like they are as good as gold

Same thing happened to me when I stated that the casino's will buy up tickets to a Vegas NHL team like they buy up tickets to every other show/event in the city. I provided quote after quote and articles of NHL brass saying the Casino's bought every private box in the place and were buying 1000's of tickets at a time and everyone who opposed in the first place just said....nope sorry I disagree..... It's infuriating ... because it's ignorance plain and simple

I respect the MLS as a league and I don't disregard it's growing popularity but until you provide some factual data stating it's catching the attention of more Canadians then the CFL, It's just your opinion and your opinions don't hold up VS recorded statistics.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Well put my friend

One thing I cannot stand is when someone argues with good old fashion Ignorance. You can provide them with all the credible stats,facts,quotes,sources and articles you want and they will disagree yet give you no reasonable proof to back up the claims. Just personal beliefs like they are as good as gold

Same thing happened to me when I stated that the casino's will buy up tickets to a Vegas NHL team like they buy up tickets to every other show/event in the city. I provided quote after quote and articles of NHL brass saying the Casino's bought every private box in the place and were buying 1000's of tickets at a time and everyone who opposed in the first place just said....nope sorry I disagree..... It's infuriating ... because it's ignorance plain and simple

I respect the MLS as a league and I don't disregard it's growing popularity but until you provide some factual data stating it's catching the attention of more Canadians then the CFL, It's just your opinion and your opinions don't hold up VS recorded statistics.

I provided facts. Soccer is big in Vancouver. If the CFL loses Vancouver, they are done. Like you said, it's growing in popularity. Already the Whitecaps almost match the Lions in attendance with twice as many games. The Whitecaps are worth 10 times more than the Lions. Unfortunately the CFL is a fossil.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by logan5

I provided facts. Soccer is big in Vancouver. If the CFL loses Vancouver, they are done. Like you said, it's growing in popularity. Already the Whitecaps almost match the Lions in attendance with twice as many games. The Whitecaps are worth 10 times more than the Lions. Unfortunately the CFL is a fossil.

Now you're just starting to piss me off. I did not say the Whitecaps were growing in popularity I said the league was. Secondly You did not provide one fact, just more opinions. Thirdly, The CFL was an 8 team league only a year ago so lets just throw your "CFL is done without Vancouver" theory out the window. Not that The lions are in any trouble, in fact they probably break even at this apparent 20K per game average you're claiming. With the new TV deal it's hard not to break even in this league Considering Hamilton and Ottawa are making money at 24,000ish per game.

Lions last home game was the lowest attendance in BC in 13 years (May 2002). They are injured and not performing on the feild... thus attendance will reflect this...as is the nature of live sporting events.
not just the CFL. Don't believe me? Lets look at a quote on an article based on the most popular Sports team in Vancouver after a losing season shall we? (I can do this all day)
"So far this season, average attendance at Rogers Arena is the lowest since the 2002-2003 season" (Sounds familiar doesn't it?)

Source? here you go
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-co...spite-customer-service-rebrand-1.2818925

Lets compare attendance figures since moving back into BC shall we?

2011 Attendance
-BC lions: 29,725
-Vancouver WhiteCaps: 20,412

2012 Attendance
-BC lions: 34,767
-Vancouver WhiteCaps: 19,475

2013 Attendance
-BC lions: 30,356
-Vancouver WhiteCaps: 20,097

2014 attandance
-BC lions: 28,310
-Vancouver WhiteCaps: 20,408

Sources you say?...gladly
https://stats.cfldb.ca/team/bc-lions/attendance/2014/

http://mlsattendance.blogspot.ca/

now lets talk television ratings in 2014

Lions game 700,000+ per game (league leading)
Whitecaps 140,000+ per game

example:
-CFL, Bombers at Lions, Friday, TSN: 857,000
-MLS, FC Dallas at Whitecaps, Sunday, TSN: 99,000

Source
https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/eh-gam...th-games-hold-own-211841537.html#more-id

let me guess irrelevant right? because (insert excuse here)...

As you can see from every bit of FACTUAL data that I have provided you, The white caps aren't gaining any popularity in Vancouver they are merely keeping pace with themselves. Consistency isn't a bad thing it just holds no weight to your argument. The Lions are falling to the stagnant Whitecap attendance level and everyone is deeming that as a bad season, That alone speaks volumes. So when you say "Already the Whitecaps almost match the Lions in attendance" Not only do you sound stupid but you're contradicting your own argument. It's a complete reflection on the lions 3-5 season not the popularity of the MLS. I love how you only bring relevance to 8 games in 2015 for comparisons sake though that was cute the way you wiped out 60+ years of available CFL attendance to suite your MLS arguments.

[Oilkountry]

As far as I'm concerned I just ended this Conversation. Mainly because you have no ground to stand on. You MLS fan boys might have the CFL beat in the Canadian sports scene ONE DAY. But as for now you don't, and their is no evidence suggesting this trend is going to change any time soon. So you can damn well give the Canadian football league the respect it deserves.

If you have anything credible to contribute to this debate I'm willing and actually looking forward to reading it, but if not don't even bother.

A few things I am curious about though, can you provide me with the sources for....

-Lions and White caps team value. I'm really curios to know if in fact the MLS club is worth 10X or if that is just your opinion. (Again)
I can't confirm this but their was rumours of Braley asking 60M for both the Argos and Lions.

-I would also like to see where you're getting 20k PER GAME average of the lions this year. I cant seem to find that. I know it's been lower than usual but I would love to know if 20k is just a single game stat you're dressing up as a season average.

Thanks Logan I appreciate that...You won't be able to find them. But thanks for trying

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by logan5

I provided facts. Soccer is big in Vancouver. If the CFL loses Vancouver, they are done. Like you said, it's growing in popularity. Already the Whitecaps almost match the Lions in attendance with twice as many games. The Whitecaps are worth 10 times more than the Lions. Unfortunately the CFL is a fossil.

You provided facts which state MLS is lower than CFL in popularity.

Soccer is doing good in BC by your stats but not as good as CFL, again by your facts. When you provide numbers that ACTUALLY support your view come back and preach. Until then go crawl back to your Canucks logo (NHL) and preach all you want about the Whitecaps.

[Acajack]

I don't for a minute that MLS is more popular than CFL but I do think the CFL needs to watch its back in the three biggest cities.

The CFL is much healthier it is true but I would hate to see it lose the progress it has made in the last decade or so. It needs to keep growing not slide backwards.

Also, what does that Bibby poll tell you about the return of the Expos?

[king10]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't for a minute that MLS is more popular than CFL but I do think the CFL needs to watch its back in the three biggest cities.

The CFL is much healthier it is true but I would hate to see it lose the progress it has made in the last decade or so. It needs to keep growing not slide backwards.

Also, what does that Bibby poll tell you about the return of the Expos?

I agree with this post.

There is some cause for concern in the cfl with attendance and ratings. But i feel this summer was affected by wwc and pan ams. The argos are a lost cause this year at rogers centre, but hopefully the move to bmo will get them on solid ground. Braley needs to sell the lions and get an active owner.

The cfl needs to nip this trend in the but. While right now its not catastrophic, if it contines, it may undo all the progress the CFL has made this past decade.

Also drogba is 37. He'll be in mtl for 2 years tops. Its not like the impact are powerhouses attendance wise. Last night was their first sellout at saputo in 2 years. Their owner called out their fans after drawing sub 15,000 earlier in the year. Like most cities, mtl supports a winner or is drawn to big events like 60,000 for the champs league final.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by king10

I agree with this post.

There is some cause for concern in the cfl with attendance and ratings. But i feel this summer was affected by wwc and pan ams. The argos are a lost cause this year at rogers centre, but hopefully the move to bmo will get them on solid ground. Braley needs to sell the lions and get an active owner.

The cfl needs to nip this trend in the but. While right now its not catastrophic, if it contines, it may undo all the progress the CFL has made this past decade.

Also drogba is 37. He'll be in mtl for 2 years tops. Its not like the impact are powerhouses attendance wise. Last night was their first sellout at saputo in 2 years. Their owner called out their fans after drawing sub 15,000 earlier in the year. Like most cities, mtl supports a winner or is drawn to big events like 60,000 for the champs league final.

is there a trend happening in the CFL though?

Bombers 3-5: attendance reflects
Lions: 3-5: attendance reflects
Als: 3-5 attendance reflects

on the other hand

RedBlacks 4-3: TD place selling out
Ticats 6-2 10th straight sell out
Esks and Stamps are drawing usual crowds even in terrible weather

riders 0-8 (who cares about the attendance I just wanted to bring light to that)

I think everyone is hitting the panic button prematurely here. This is the world of pro sports. Especially in a market like Vancouver. They like a winner and even the Canucks are not exempt from that.

The economy is terrible, The world cup made home games a nightmare. The west is dressing crappy teams. These are all challenges.

Within the next 2 seasons we have 2 more new Stadiums being introduced to the league. That is going to help the Argos and propel the CFL further away from that "bush league" stigma it has.

[MonctonRad]

Agreed. Compared to the 1990's the CFL is doing spectacularly well. The league still need to get a 10th team (Halifax or QC) to bring parity to the league.

At a bare minimum, the CFL should strive for a 12 team circuit within the next 12-15 years.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by king10

Like most cities, mtl supports a winner or is drawn to big events like 60,000 for the champs league final.

That's exactly it, Montreal is a Habs city first, then a big event city.

For example:
Als average attendance during regular season: around 20K
Als attendance during playoff game at Big O: 50K

Impact average attendance during regular season: 16K
Impact attendance for Americas Cup: 60K

Which is why Montreal will never be able to support a baseball team or a QMJHL team. Sure an MLB exhibition game will attract interest but as soon as the actual team gets awarded, attendance will stay below 20K.

The only other franchise I see having success in Montreal is an AHL team when the Ice Caps move to Laval. But that's only because it's the Habs farm team.

[Acajack]

Another thing I have realized is that the CFL appears successful because of radically revised expectations.

20k crowd: acceptable
25k: good
30k: very good
35k+: woo hoo!

Attendance today is not significantly higher than in the dog days of the 80s and 90s, and way below the 70s.

The RedBlacks are not really drawing way more fans than the Rough Riders or Renegades. This is true of most teams BTW. Attendance is holding steady or is down compared with 10 or 20 years ago.

[esquire]

All of these fancy numbers and stats are worthless. The fact of the matter is that logan and a few of his buddies like soccer, so clearly the CFL is dying. What part of this do you people not understand?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The RedBlacks are not really drawing way more fans than the Rough Riders or Renegades. This is true of most teams BTW. Attendance is holding steady or is down compared with 10 or 20 years ago.

But which teams in any North American sport are drawing substantially more than they did 20 years ago? There are a few exceptions here and there, but by and large stadium/arena capacities are about the same now as they were in the mid/early 90s.

If you look at CFL attendance, 7 of the 9 teams in the league can be said to drawing a couple thousand to a few thousand more a game in 2014 compared to 1994. The only exceptions are Hamilton which played in a small temporary stadium for much of last year, and Montreal which didn't have a team in 1994.

And as for Ottawa specifically, it drew an average crowd of 19,409 in 1994. In 2004 it was 24,295. Maybe someone has the historical TV numbers, but given that TV coverage has improved since the 90s (not all games were televised then) and local blackouts are a thing of the past, I'd be willing to bet that regional TV viewership is through the roof in Ottawa compared to the 90s.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

But which teams in any North American sport are drawing substantially more than they did 20 years ago? There are a few exceptions here and there, but by and large stadium/arena capacities are about the same now as they were in the mid/early 90s.

If you look at CFL attendance, 7 of the 9 teams in the league can be said to drawing a couple thousand to a few thousand more a game in 2014 compared to 1994. The only exceptions are Hamilton which played in a small temporary stadium for much of last year, and Montreal which didn't have a team in 1994.

And as for Ottawa specifically, it drew an average crowd of 19,409 in 1994. In 2004 it was 24,295. Maybe someone has the historical TV numbers, but given that TV coverage has improved since the 90s (not all games were televised then) and local blackouts are a thing of the past, I'd be willing to bet that regional TV viewership is through the roof in Ottawa compared to the 90s.

I can believe most of that. Especially when it comes to TV. I just find all of the CFL Renaissance talk interesting. You'd think they'd be averaging at least 35 or 40 k a game now.

Though most NHL clubs in Canada are averaging 3 to 4 k more per game than in the 90s.