PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Mark in Mount Airy

While I wholeheartedly support the BSL extension to the Navy Yard and ultimately the airport, the KofP extension isn't wrongheaded. There are three huge employment centers in the Philadelphia region and one of them is not reachable by rail/subway. I want working class folks who live within the city to be able to more easily commute to jobs in KofP than they can now.

While we are on the subject, the City needs to put a lot more money into SEPTA as well. We have a City Council that has always prioritized spending money on people -- who can move across City Avenue -- then on than the physical assets of the city which cannot. It steams me that City Council underfunds SEPTA and the parks system.

I would much rather that $30 million that Kenney threw towards Penn Landing to be used to expand rail transit. I know both are important but as walkable as Philly is, its transit needs are dire. And no one in power seems to see that.

I’ve had an idea for a little while now of a new subway line utilizing the PRR Highline. A bridge would have to be built further south (near Bartram’s Garden) to allow CSX to access Greenwich from the south, but realistically there’s no reason that should choke them up any more than they already are.

The line could run from Girard Avenue near the Zoo, through what will eventually become the 30th Street Station district, and then continue following the Highline south, until it crosses the Schuylkill and reaches Washington (where it could then either run as a subway the whole length of Washington to Delaware, or take the 25th St Viaduct into an area of south Philly that is currently a transit desert).

Following this routing would save SEPTA a boatload of money by using existing infrastructure, and finally give the Zoo, Fairmount Park, and Parkside a direct transit connection with Center City. You could even rearrange ZOO and have a spur replace the Cynwyd line (though that would never happen in a million billion years).

I feel like there’s not a lot of… inspiration in City Council or in SEPTA at the moment. It isn’t even just limited to transit, the only thing I’ve seen from either party that feels inspired and committed to improving Philadelphia in creative ways is the aforementioned Penn’s Landing cap.

[iamrobk]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I would much rather that $30 million that Kenney threw towards Penn Landing to be used to expand rail transit. I know both are important but as walkable as Philly is, its transit needs are dire. And no one in power seems to see that.

Assuming you're referring to the I-95 cap, the city contribution is, from what I can find in various news reports, $90m over 6 years, not $30m. That said, that's a bargain compared to transit - the BSL extension is estimated to cost between $869m and $1.6b. https://www.inquirer.com/transportation/...ail-navy-yard-septa-subway-20190201.html
I am all for improving our transit, but the financial scale is frankly on a different level compared to a lot of city projects. Any major transit projects really need to be done with significant state and/or federal help.

I realize you probably just threw out the I-95 cap somewhat arbitrarily, but I do think it's actually a helpful comparison in order to better understand the financial scale of what's going on. And I do personally think the money being used to cap I-95 is being spent very well and the results will, I hope, be fantastic.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by iamrobk

Assuming you're referring to the I-95 cap, the city contribution is, from what I can find in various news reports, $90m over 6 years, not $30m. That said, that's a bargain compared to transit - the BSL extension is estimated to cost between $869m and $1.6b. https://www.inquirer.com/transportation/...ail-navy-yard-septa-subway-20190201.html
I am all for improving our transit, but the financial scale is frankly on a different level compared to a lot of city projects. Any major transit projects really need to be done with significant state and/or federal help.

I realize you probably just threw out the I-95 cap somewhat arbitrarily, but I do think it's actually a helpful comparison in order to better understand the financial scale of what's going on. And I do personally think the money being used to cap I-95 is being spent very well and the results will, I hope, be fantastic.

Thank you for the clarification.

I certainly agree that the 95 cap will be fantastic. I was just saying that perhaps if the city is willing to throw that much money around they could throw SEPTA a bone.

You’re right though, at the end of the day it isn’t even the Feds that are limiting this anymore, it’s the state. PA doesn’t give us shit.

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

KoP is a POS that needs to die ASAP. It is a horrendous project by just about every imaginable metric. I would gladly trade killing KoP dead to resuscitate BSL.

Originally Posted by PHL10

I'm glad someone said it.

What is it about it that you don't like?

Originally Posted by Mark in Mount Airy

While I wholeheartedly support the BSL extension to the Navy Yard and ultimately the airport, the KofP extension isn't wrongheaded. There are three huge employment centers in the Philadelphia region and one of them is not reachable by rail/subway. I want working class folks who live within the city to be able to more easily commute to jobs in KofP than they can now.

Agreed and KOP is now the second largest employment center in the area next to CC [and UC if you want to split hairs], direct rail connection to it is extremely important. And the demographics are changing rapidly so it's important to cater to and capitalize on this.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

Agreed and KOP is now the second largest employment center in the area next to CC [and UC if you want to split hairs], direct rail connection to it is extremely important. And the demographics are changing rapidly so it's important to cater to and capitalize on this.

What is "it"? The Mall?

The point is "KOP" as an "employment center" is a sprawling mass of suburban low-rise office parks mostly based along Swedesford Road. This is frankly the problem with decentralized, sprawling corporate office campuses along miles and miles roads - transit is useless. KOP, as an idea, is a total mess.

Plus, there's already a $2.50 1-seat ride between Center City and the Mall that takes less than an hour.

[MyDadBuiltThat]

Montgomery County could learn from northern Va here. The counties run dedicated buses from the Metro stops directly to various office hubs. It's great. They're timed to the Metro so they don't depart until the train arrives so no worries if the train is delayed. Montco is so cheap and stuck in the past in their thinking. Traffic is the number one complaint but they won't spend a cent run buses from Bridgeport or Norristown to KoP now.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by Mark in Mount Airy

While I wholeheartedly support the BSL extension to the Navy Yard and ultimately the airport, the KofP extension isn't wrongheaded. There are three huge employment centers in the Philadelphia region and one of them is not reachable by rail/subway. I want working class folks who live within the city to be able to more easily commute to jobs in KofP than they can now.

While we are on the subject, the City needs to put a lot more money into SEPTA as well. We have a City Council that has always prioritized spending money on people -- who can move across City Avenue -- then on than the physical assets of the city which cannot. It steams me that City Council underfunds SEPTA and the parks system.

I agree. KoP rail line is certainly good, I don't see how anyone could disagree. But it shouldn't be a top priority for SEPTA since they are financially very thin.

You mention the city needs to put more money into SEPTA, wouldn't that largely fall on the state at this point? Is there any effort from city council to push the state or even threaten the state to add funding to SEPTA?

Similar to revising the tax structure in the city (less reliance on wage and birt), Helen Gym said a lot of the changes are state level, and she basically shrugged her shoulders... Not the leadership Philadelphia needs.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by Londonee

What is "it"? The Mall?

The point is "KOP" as an "employment center" is a sprawling mass of suburban low-rise office parks mostly based along Swedesford Road. This is frankly the problem with decentralized, sprawling corporate office campuses along miles and miles roads - transit is useless. KOP, as an idea, is a total mess.

Plus, there's already a $2.50 1-seat ride between Center City and the Mall that takes less than an hour.

I don't disagree with the high level idea, but KoP is 100% an employment center, rivaling Tysons, even if it doesn't fit your definition of an urban employment center.

That being said, I agree that a rail line to KoP should not be a #1 priority. And the proposed rail line doesn't even stop at the Village of Valley Forge, which is now the center of that area...dumb...

But in the end, the Philadelphia region should act in unity (as much as it can). The target should be the state, the city vs. suburbs argument is silly and misguided. Philadelphia needs its suburbs just as much as they need Philadelphia.

[AnEmperorPenguin]

My impression is that the stations are kind of far away from the destinations and that it leads to trips being on par with if not longer then driving and, possibly related, the SEPTA ridership projections were very weak even pre-pandemic. I think a KOP line is fine in abstract but for $2 billion? Maybe not

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by AnEmperorPenguin

My impression is that the stations are kind of far away from the destinations and that it leads to trips being on par with if not longer then driving and, possibly related, the SEPTA ridership projections were very weak even pre-pandemic. I think a KOP line is fine in abstract but for $2 billion? Maybe not

2 Billion for a line with weak projections and serves a small population.

We have multiple other projects in the city that serve the greater population & SEPTA choose the KOP line.

Makes you wonder who buttered Septa's pockets because it doesn't make sense.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Londonee

What is "it"? The Mall?

The point is "KOP" as an "employment center" is a sprawling mass of suburban low-rise office parks mostly based along Swedesford Road. This is frankly the problem with decentralized, sprawling corporate office campuses along miles and miles roads - transit is useless. KOP, as an idea, is a total mess.

Plus, there's already a $2.50 1-seat ride between Center City and the Mall that takes less than an hour.

Exactly. All of this. Kop is somewhat sort of working on urbanizing their sprawling mess into something more cohesive. Maybe years down the line a Kop line makes sense, but not now, and certainly not for 2 billion!

Originally Posted by TonyTone

2 Billion for a line with weak projections and serves a small population.

We have multiple other projects in the city that serve the greater population & SEPTA choose the KOP line.

Makes you wonder who buttered Septa's pockets because it doesn't make sense.

There's no need to search for a conspiracy or bribes to make sense of Septa's preference for less efficient, more costly, suburban upgrades over more efficient urban ones. When septa was formed it was explicitly designed to favor the suburbs over Philly. Just take a look at their board and how much representation Philly has on it.

https://www.septa.org/about/board/members.html

[mcgrath618]

I think that there’s a valid argument here to pull a Chicago, and split SEPTA into a regional transit agency consisting of the Regional Rail and suburban busses, and a Philadelphia-specific transit agency (PTC, anyone?) that consists solely of the subways, trolleys, city busses and trolleybuses, and the NHSL.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

I agree. KoP rail line is certainly good, I don't see how anyone could disagree. But it shouldn't be a top priority for SEPTA since they are financially very thin.

You mention the city needs to put more money into SEPTA, wouldn't that largely fall on the state at this point? Is there any effort from city council to push the state or even threaten the state to add funding to SEPTA?

Similar to revising the tax structure in the city (less reliance on wage and birt), Helen Gym said a lot of the changes are state level, and she basically shrugged her shoulders... Not the leadership Philadelphia needs.

the counties served by SEPTA contribute very little to it's budget. Capital budget comes from PA and the feds. No major projects or expansions will happen without significant federal help. The feds changed the funding formula for new starts and this is one reason why other regions now need special taxes to built new transit lines. I believe it used to be 80/20 but now it's 50/50 which is a huge difference. The federal government has really taken a step back in terms of incentivizing transit starts.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by Londonee

What is "it"? The Mall?

The point is "KOP" as an "employment center" is a sprawling mass of suburban low-rise office parks mostly based along Swedesford Road. This is frankly the problem with decentralized, sprawling corporate office campuses along miles and miles roads - transit is useless. KOP, as an idea, is a total mess.

Plus, there's already a $2.50 1-seat ride between Center City and the Mall that takes less than an hour.

/upvote

[Skintreesnail]

The nhsl spur is going to be a waste of money, unless kop magically grows a real pedestrian infrastructure by the time it's realized. Kop was built around the idea of suburban office parks and is completely car-centric. The new town center or whatever they call it is nice, but relatively small given the size of kop. Also as others have mentioned the spur won't even go to it. A better alternative would probably to go all-in with regional rail to reading, partnering with Amtrak and running buses from the kop train station to distribute riders.

Also I feel like breaking septa up into separate entities would weaken the system as a whole. 5 of the regional rail lines pretty much terminate in the city, and then there's the plan to run regional rail like a metro that has a ton of potential. I'd rather keep septa whole. Philadelphia should definitely have more representation though. Don't we give the most $$ to the budget out of the all the other counties (just talking local funding, as I realize state and fed dwarf everything else)? Not to mention the reliance the residents have on the system.

[SEFTA]

I would be happy just to see a long range plan for expansion.
I personally would like to see the BRT extended to Navy Yards AND the AIRPORT.
I would like to see the Airport expanded as the Airports of the NE are often overburdened.
Philly is central and easily accessible.
I would actually love to see the Airport as a stop on Amtrak's regular NE Corridor. Don't know the logistics of that.

For so long Philly, well, Pa. stopped planning for expansion and concentrated on updating, as we have been long losing population.
Hopefully that has begun to reverse.
Particularly the urban areas.
As someone from Western Pa. We hated Philly and blamed Philly for the financial problems of the state.
True? No. But there you are.

With the urban areas of Pa growing and the rural areas of the state clearly shrinking, it's time for our cities to retake power in this state.
The cities have not declared war on the rural areas BUT the rural areas HAVE declared war on us.
Fueled by a great deal of racism.
STOP THE GERRYMANDERING!

[Frontst17]

I think the point of it is to correct the fact that Norristown doesn’t connect to KOP. It’s a huge miss and should already have train service so I consider this spent money already honestly. Should it take away from other necessary lines? Absolutely not

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by allovertown

There's no need to search for a conspiracy or bribes to make sense of Septa's preference for less efficient, more costly, suburban upgrades over more efficient urban ones. When septa was formed it was explicitly designed to favor the suburbs over Philly. Just take a look at their board and how much representation Philly has on it.

https://www.septa.org/about/board/members.html

If that's the case I agree with Mcgrath about Philly Transportation separating from the counties and just focusing on it's own transit and Regional Rail.

Thats only if it made sense. in Reality the areas we serve outside of Philly boundaries are just Philly in County form. We would be big as New York if we would have annexed everything back then, and then we probably would have a better ran system with everyone working together, but in this reality its Suburbs V.S City.

Anyone know what the biggest cost to Septa it? What kills the budget the most?

I hope we can get a good bill out that gets us secured funding for 100+ years or maybe this infrastructure bill will send some money our way.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

If that's the case I agree with Mcgrath about Philly Transportation separating from the counties and just focusing on it's own transit and Regional Rail.

Thats only if it made sense. in Reality the areas we serve outside of Philly boundaries are just Philly in County form. We would be big as New York if we would have annexed everything back then, and then we probably would have a better ran system with everyone working together, but in this reality its Suburbs V.S City.

Anyone know what the biggest cost to Septa it? What kills the budget the most?

I hope we can get a good bill out that gets us secured funding for 100+ years or maybe this infrastructure bill will send some money our way.

Personnel, maintenance, and payment to Amtrak make up the three largest pieces of the SEPTA budget pie, IIRC. I have the 2022 budget somewhere, I’ll have to look to confirm.

[mcgrath618]

Jean-Georges’ restaurant atop the CTC just reopened. SSP meetup in September?