General Phoenix Metro Discussion Thread

[combusean]

Originally Posted by Obadno

There is a very simple way to help. Subsidize Shade trees, lawns, fountains, white paint, permeable surfaces etc.

Agriculture uses 70% of our water in the state yet we now have subsidies to make people pull out their grass and trees to replace them with plastic turf and rock which makes the urban heat island WORSE.

Its ass backwards, we should be punishing agg to grow different crops or be more efficient in their water (Which they can easily) and encouraging people to plant trees as much as possible.

But for poltiics its way easier to say "Kill your lawn save water"

Drives me INSANE

We could so easily trade better policy for a vastly more sustainable climate with better planting but we just ... don't. Our neighbor has a big row of I think oleander between his wall and the sidewalk and it is significantly cooler to walk by than anywhere else. God knows where this house's cooling bills would be if it didn't have the huge mesquites in the front yard shading it.

[DesertRay]

Originally Posted by combusean

We could so easily trade better policy for a vastly more sustainable climate with better planting but we just ... don't. Our neighbor has a big row of I think oleander between his wall and the sidewalk and it is significantly cooler to walk by than anywhere else. God knows where this house's cooling bills would be if it didn't have the huge mesquites in the front yard shading it.

*sigh*

Yeah. People want to either "do nothing" or "central control" (and this goes for both major parties). Most of what works is hard earned and local, and it's hard to make policies that prioritize that. Often, even "local control" is given to the loudest newcomers who claim that the hard-earned know-how is somehow evil.

I think that over the 40 years I've been in Phoenix, it's gotten much better, but it's always gonna be fits and starts.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by DesertRay

*sigh*

Yeah. People want to either "do nothing" or "central control" (and this goes for both major parties). Most of what works is hard earned and local, and it's hard to make policies that prioritize that. Often, even "local control" is given to the loudest newcomers who claim that the hard-earned know-how is somehow evil.

I think that over the 40 years I've been in Phoenix, it's gotten much better, but it's always gonna be fits and starts.

Yes I can absolutely tell that the current zoning codes have improved the tree choices in new developments (Ie not palo-verde spam) but the city of phoenix support for the installation of fake grass is horribly ill advised.

The actual amount of water saved is minimal (in the macro sense not for individuals) and the increase to ambient heat is significant from fake grass

[azsunsurfer]

Fake grass is gross. Contains who knows what chemicals. It's also trashy in appearance like Paris Hilton from the 2010s.

[DesertRay]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

Fake grass is gross. Contains who knows what chemicals. It's also trashy in appearance like Paris Hilton from the 2010s.

Oh hell yes. Fake grass should have gone out with bell bottoms.

[KEVINphx]

Originally Posted by DesertRay

It's actually pretty complex, but the simplest way to know it is better is where it is placed. If it is put on something dark (which it usually is--most roofs are, in aggregate, dark), then the energy removed for the electricity reduces the gain. The problem with the pavement isn't the reflection, it is the absorption. Dark materials are not as reflective (although some of that doesn't matter, since carbon in the air absorbs some of that heat--but I digress). Roofs and asphalt are notoriously hot, but light-colored surfaces are less so, and cool off quicker (this is part of the reason that Cul de Sac is 15-20 degrees cooler, since it is painted white, like you see in places like Greece). So, in sum, roofs get a little cooler, we generate non-carbon emitting power to cool the inside, and we free other power sources to generate for other optimized uses. Win-win-win.

LOL OK I have to ask about this claim about "Cul de Sac" - 10-15 degrees is HUGE. That's a bold claim . . . we're talking about the difference between 106 and 91-95 . . . I am not against everything that project is about so I am not attacking, rather questioning "is this true"

I wanna know more about this specific development and results - the heat island of phoenix is MASSIVE surrounding the project so I can't see some relatively small scale development simply being painted white being THAT much cooler . . . .

[DesertRay]

This guy has a better summary than I do (from Ryan Johnson's Substack)

Culdesac in the peak heat of Arizona
RYAN JOHNSON
JUL 19, 2023
Might just be a coincidence, but with AZ at peak heat this weekend, we’re getting more press inquiries to talk about Culdesac Tempe. My first question is, are you visiting in person? As you’ll see, it’s not as bad as you think, and Culdesac has multiple tactics to reduce the impact (hint: they’re all things we used to do before cars). The big 3:

1. Not a drop of asphalt

The diurnal temperature range in the desert is large. Over 30 degrees on average in Tempe. The nights should be even cooler, but there’s a problem - we’ve paved paradise with asphalt. The resulting heat island effect absorbs heat during the day and emits it at night. But Culdesac Tempe has no asphalt. Instead, we have over 50% landscaped space.

2. Shade

Culdesac Tempe has 2-3 story buildings with narrow corridors between them. This means more shade than one story buildings and a sea of parking. The night is cooler than the daytime sunlight. And so is the daytime shade.

3. Heat-reflecting buildings

You’ve heard about buildings painting their roofs white to save electricity costs in the summer. Well we’ve painting almost the entire building white. This reflects heat.

The desert weather is amazing in the cooler months. But it’s also not as bad as you think in the summer. Everyone knows about the dry heat. 100 in Phoenix and 100 in Houston are very different.

It definitely gets hot. Very hot. But ask someone complaining about the heat to describe it. It is usually them getting in their car after grocery shopping while the car was cooking in the sun. That’s not 117 and dry. That’s 175 and humid. The problem there isn’t the desert. It’s the car. And the environment that meant you needed to drive it and park it while you shopped.

Sure, living in the desert summer requires adaptation. We pay more attention to what time of day activities are. Early mornings and late evenings are particularly good times of day. And we pay more attention to where there is the shade.

There are some more subtle things as well; have you seen how effective misters can be at cooling when the air is dry? But we can also build neighborhoods that are better off than asphalt-filled sprawl.

Humans have thrived in the desert since before air conditioning. It is even easier to thrive with modern conveniences, if we pick the right design. Come visit - you can feel the difference once you step inside the neighborhood.

So, get rid of the black/dark materials (asphalt, tar roofs) and make them light. Also, create an undulating landscape which spreads out the sun hitting them (so, each surface only gets hit a bit and then can cool off). It makes a bigger difference than you think because it can cool off more at night, and so starts better, pushes the heat it does gain up, and puts people in the canyons. When I used to hike the canyons in southern Arizona, I was amazed at how cool they were compared to the buttes and mesas. These are just artificially constructed canyons where people are. We're getting less stupid. Just look at some of the Pueblos and the villages along the Mediterranean in Greece and Spain. They know.

[azcats]

1) My mother used to say that when my parents first moved to Phoenix (early 1950's) ...she actually would wear a sweater at night in June. Maricopa Couty had 350,000 people then...lots more virgin desert. Not much more than Yavapai County has today: 250,000. The minute the sun goes down here - the temperature drops like a rock. Not Phoenix. The heat doesn't go anywhere. From sundown to midnight - there is a 30 degree difference between Phoenix and Prescott. Taking a walk here at night- go along a wall I can feel warmth...near a small open canyon: much cooler.

2) Cars: Oh...literally will kill you in the summer. Times have changed. When parking, we never completely rolled our windows up in the summer. The only thing we worried about - is if a dust storm came rolling in. We didn't call them boob haboob! Just a plain old dust storm.

3) I am not a creative genius...however, those that are: What took them so long to come up with covered parking lots at the grocery stores!?! We used to shop for groceries at either Bayless or Bashas. The "A.J.s" now - what a rip off!

[DesertRay]

Originally Posted by azcats

1) My mother used to say that when my parents first moved to Phoenix (early 1950's) ...she actually would wear a sweater at night in June. Maricopa Couty had 350,000 people then...lots more virgin desert. Not much more than Yavapai County has today: 250,000. The minute the sun goes down here - the temperature drops like a rock. Not Phoenix. The heat doesn't go anywhere. From sundown to midnight - there is a 30 degree difference between Phoenix and Prescott. Taking a walk here at night- go along a wall I can feel warmth...near a small open canyon: much cooler.

2) Cars: Oh...literally will kill you in the summer. Times have changed. When parking, we never completely rolled our windows up in the summer. The only thing we worried about - is if a dust storm came rolling in. We didn't call them boob haboob! Just a plain old dust storm.

3) I am not a creative genius...however, those that are: What took them so long to come up with covered parking lots at the grocery stores!?! We used to shop for groceries at either Bayless or Bashas. The "A.J.s" now - what a rip off!

YES to all of this! We also used to shop at Smitty's as well. We would collect the green stamps at A.J. Bayless. Parents got a new set of luggage from all of that shopping.

[Obadno]

This is not really a huge deal but just an interesting thing, Taiwanese Tea company expanding in Phoenix, I can only imagine this is the result of TSMC

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/...o-arizona.html

[azliam]

Originally Posted by Obadno

This is not really a huge deal but just an interesting thing, Taiwanese Tea company expanding in Phoenix, I can only imagine this is the result of TSMC

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/...o-arizona.html

With no expansion to North PHX or the West Valley...

[BA744PHX]

Originally Posted by azliam

With no expansion to North PHX or the West Valley...

They’re pretty good, my office is across the street from one in NYC. Loaded with sugar, and can have long lines at times, not bad overall.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by azliam

With no expansion to North PHX or the West Valley...

Oh sorry I forget people think those parts of the valley matter. Why would anyone live in the west valley? How gosh. Indubitably, visa vis, Concordantly

[AZSunHiker]

This is not really a huge deal but just an interesting thing, Taiwanese Tea company expanding in Phoenix, I can only imagine this is the result of TSMC

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/...o-arizona.html

No need to be related to TSMC. From what I've observed, ever since around the time of the pandemic there has been an explosion of Asian establishments in Arcadia, Mesa, Chandler, Tempe, and Scottsdale including a chain from Thailand called Fire Tiger which opened its first US location in Mesa.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by AZSunHiker

No need to be related to TSMC. From what I've observed, ever since around the time of the pandemic there has been an explosion of Asian establishments in Arcadia, Mesa, Chandler, Tempe, and Scottsdale including a chain from Thailand called Fire Tiger which opened its first US location in Mesa.

This is a nationwide trend. I’m traveling in New England right now, and I’m seeing many boba tea shops, including some of the same chains that have opened recently in the parts of the Phoenix Metro Area you have mentioned.

[builder03]

Downtown Phoenix from Portland and 1st St (Rainbow Road and Ray):



IMO - Rainbow Road looks like a tacky heat sponge, while Ray looks like a beautiful addition of color to the skyline.

Downtown Tempe (Crane for Astria):

[Obadno]

https://azbex.com/economic-developme...idor-land-buy/

This si all the land Between TSMC and Lake Pleasent all the way up to the mountains by New River

This will all be suburban sprawl in 20 years.

[combusean]

Peoria being master developer of that land is extremely problematic.

It's one thing when city governments buys up a few acres of disjointed and otherwise unwanted, undevelopable blighted land for some public/quasi-public/econdev potential, especially when there's a market failure as is often the case with infill.

This is not the case here--Peoria thinks they're better than the free market in determining the best use of a massive swath of virgin land to the exclusion of everyone else. Why should private developers be forced to compete with government like this anyways--there's usually no shortage of these guys bidding on state land.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by combusean

Peoria being master developer of that land is extremely problematic.

It's one thing when city governments buys up a few acres of disjointed and otherwise unwanted, undevelopable blighted land for some public/quasi-public/econdev potential, especially when there's a market failure as is often the case with infill.

This is not the case here--Peoria thinks they're better than the free market in determining the best use of a massive swath of virgin land to the exclusion of everyone else. Why should private developers be forced to compete with government like this anyways--there's usually no shortage of these guys bidding on state land.

I imagine that Peoria is going to in turn bid the land out so they 1. have more control over developments and 2. revenue for the city.

[xymox]

Originally Posted by Obadno

I imagine that Peoria is going to in turn bid the land out so they 1. have more control over developments and 2. revenue for the city.

Yes. They’re looking for land that they can offer for big tsmc related projects that won’t face NIMBYism like Ankor is facing from
Vistancia. I don’t expect this to be filled with homes to start.