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  #3001  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2014, 3:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Sorry to call you out specifically. It's relatively common to do this in Canada, and hear Canadian sportscaster refer to the Kansas Jayhawks as "national champions", or to have U.S. TV ratings or box office numbers cited as "national".
No worries. And I totally get what you're saying.

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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
As for NCAA popularity, I'd say as far as it being fairly widespread it only goes back to the 1980s and the huge upsurge in TV sports broadcasting and multiplicity of cable channels. Before that there was some interest for sure but it was very niche.

It's hard to believe today but before the late 70s and the 80s even the NFL didn't really have that much mainstream popularity in Canada. The CFL was really the king of the football castle all over Canada pretty much.
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Originally Posted by kirjtc2 View Post
I seem to recall it started ~10 years ago with the NHL lockout. TSN added NCAA games to their schedule and Pro-Line made them available to bet on, both mainly to fill the gap left by hockey. It stuck to a point.
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Do we really, though? The only people I know who really have anything more than even the slightest passing interest in NCAA sports are generally NBA or NFL fans who are interested in key prospects. Other than that the only time they really pay attention is during football bowl season or March Madness.
Thanks for the responses. Growing up in Toronto to immigrant parents in the late 90s and early 00s, I didn't really grow up knowing or understanding Canadian football culture. My parents just didn't take to the sport when they moved here I suppose. In fact, I didn't start watching hockey until after the 2010 Winter Olympics (my first Winter Olympic viewing experience ), so I'm a total outlier in Canada when it comes to sports culture. Most of my childhood friends were similar to me in this regard so I never realized how different of a Canadian I was. I grew up watching the EPL with my dad saturday and sunday mornings, my parents were both huge Jays fans and my brother a huge Raptors fan. Those are the sports I grew up knowing. But, who knows, I might start watching football one day. Never thought I'd ever be watching hockey. Sorry for the biography lol

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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
Wait a minute. You're a woman of the female persuasion?

Awesome. We're too male-dominated here, we need more female voices to make this place more "real." Tell the others!


Thanks for the welcome.
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  #3002  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2014, 4:36 AM
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Originally Posted by YoungRepublic View Post
I grew up watching the EPL with my dad saturday and sunday mornings, my parents were both huge Jays fans and my brother a huge Raptors fan. Those are the sports I grew up knowing.
Interesting, I've been a V since day one, (those who know the secret handshake know what I mean ) and in my dealings I've found many soccer fans have a neurotic hatred/jealousy towards baseball. Am I sensing a Latin American connection here if your parents followed baseball.
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  #3003  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2014, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
Wait a minute. You're a woman of the female persuasion?

Awesome. We're too male-dominated here, we need more female voices to make this place more "real." Tell the others!
LEts be perfectly clear, I don't care if she's a woman.

I'm not gonna pretend too either.


The beauty of the internet is this is a totally unimportant detail, unless referenced to a specific context.
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  #3004  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2014, 3:20 AM
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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
Am I sensing a Latin American connection here if your parents followed baseball.
My dad is from the UK and my mom is from Central America. Neither of them come from baseball cultures. I guess they became huge Blue Jays fans because the team was killing it back then. It's not like either of them follow the Jays too closely these days.

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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
Interesting, I've been a V since day one, (those who know the secret handshake know what I mean ) and in my dealings I've found many soccer fans have a neurotic hatred/jealousy towards baseball.
Why? That's just strange. Cross-sports rivalries can be so stupid. I've never come across that one though. I've heard of hockey fans vs. basketball fans but never soccer vs. baseball.
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  #3005  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2014, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by YoungRepublic View Post
Why? That's just strange. Cross-sports rivalries can be so stupid. I've never come across that one though. I've heard of hockey fans vs. basketball fans but never soccer vs. baseball.
I've heard the new TFC fans described as hipster doofuses and a new name that cracks me up "GTA bubble kids" because they haven't been outside their GTA bubble and are clueless to the ROC.

They think that soccer will supersede anything except hockey because even they are not stupid enough to criticize hockey's place in this country. They go out of their way to describe baseball players as fat and out of shape and because soccer has higher participation numbers they think it should also have higher popularity and can't understand why it isn't so.
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  #3006  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2014, 8:21 PM
blueandgoldguy blueandgoldguy is offline
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Here is a schedule of the Women's World Cup for 2015. Edmonton, Montreal and Vancouver will be getting the majority of the matches and the most attractive ones (with Canada) as they should.

http://www.tsn.ca/2015-fifa-women-s-...hedule-1.87758

Winnipeg will get to see some top teams including the US twice. That includes a matchup against Sweden - the 3rd ranked team in the world; Germany - the number 2 ranked team; and Japan - the 4th ranked team. Not bad.
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  #3007  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 6:01 AM
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You all think the women will succeed in court to force BC Place to lay down sod/grass for the final?

They do have a point.. the men would not even show up if asked to play on turf in the World Cup.
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  #3008  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 6:22 AM
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Originally Posted by osmo View Post
You all think the women will succeed in court to force BC Place to lay down sod/grass for the final?

They do have a point.. the men would not even show up if asked to play on turf in the World Cup.
Canada was the only country that bid for the Women's World Cup when they made those plans and part of their bid was based on the use of artificial turf. If it weren't for the artificial turf requirement there wouldn't have even been a Women's World Cup this year, not a solid foundation for pursuing a lawsuit. Besides, all future World Cups can have a natural grass requirement, this lawsuit doesn't stand a chance.
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  #3009  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 8:28 AM
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There was no artificial bid "requirement". FIFA approved artificial fields are acceptable for play and that's what we have and we bid and won (Zimbabwe dropped out)

The legal action to have the HRTO (Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario) speed up the hearing of the grass vs. turf case was rejected. Basically stating that if they wanted this sped up, they should have acted a lot quicker than they did.

"“As significant as this case may be for the applicants, I do not find it appropriate to expedite an application where the applicants have not themselves acted expeditiously. I do not find it appropriate to expedite an application where the applicants did not file their application until 18 months or more after they reasonably would have been aware of the fact that gave rise to the application.”"
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  #3010  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 8:46 AM
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Originally Posted by osmo View Post
You all think the women will succeed in court to force BC Place to lay down sod/grass for the final?
The answer to that is no, they have no case. Most people/players may prefer natural turf but there is no such requirement for any FIFA tournament.

Here was the official rule for the 2014 Men's World Cup.

"Matches shall be played on natural grass or, provided special dispensation is granted by FIFA, on artificial surfaces. Where artificial surfaces are used, the surface must meet the requirements of the FIFA Quality Concept for Football Turf or the International Artificial Turf Standard."

Field surface (from Laws of the Game 2014/2015)

Matches may be played on natural or artificial surfaces, according to the rules of the competition.

The colour of artificial surfaces must be green.

Where artificial surfaces are used in either competition matches between representative teams of member associations affiliated to FIFA or international club competition matches, the surface must meet the requirements of the FIFA Quality Concept for Football Turf or the International Artificial Turf Standard, unless special dispensation is given by FIFA.
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  #3011  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 8:48 AM
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Women's World Cup turf opponents want audience with FIFA exec
Players challenging use of artificial grass at tournament in Canada
The Canadian Press Dec 02, 2014

"In addition to discussing playing surfaces and goal-line technology, FIFA and CSA [Canadian Soccer Association] can also address any questions the players have about the prize money available for the women's tournament," lawyer Hampton Dellinger wrote in a letter Monday.

"It is the players' hope that these issues can be satisfactorily addressed so that legal action is no longer necessary."

So is it, "give us more prize money and we'll shut up about the artificial turf"
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  #3012  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 8:54 AM
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The Canadian Soccer Association response to the blackmail... err legal challenge (edited by elly)

The complaint alleges that because the Competition will be played on fields with artificial turf ("turf'), the CSA and FIFA have discriminated against the players who intend to be playing on teams competing in the Competition.

The use of high quality turf is integral to soccer in Canada, and the CSA's bid on behalf of Canada to host the Competition was always premised on the use of turf in accordance with the rules relating to the Competition. The applicants have been aware of this for at least a year and half, and probably for three years, since Canada was awarded the right to hold the Competition in 2011. Since that time, cities across Canada, and the respondents, have continued to prepare for the Competition.
The assertion that turf fields are "second class" is highly contentious and will be subject of extensive expert evidence.

The applicants cannot seriously contend that the CSA's decision to bid on the Competition, proposing to use Canada's best available facilities, constitutes discrimination. The applicants' real concern is not with any conduct by the CSA, but with the decision of FIFA to permit the Competition to be held in a country where turf is a common playing surface in our premier stadiums. That is a decision which is not subject to review by this Tribunal and one which the applicants are out of time to challenge in any event. They appear to have brought the complaint largely as means of publicizing their dissatisfaction with FIFA's decision made in Zurich in 2011, to allow the CSA to host the Competition.

It has been clear since 2004 that World Cup competitions could be held on either natural or artificial turf provided the turf met approved standards. With respect to the playing fields in the Competition, since 2011, and certainly no later than March 2013, the applicants knew or should have known that the Competition would be played, at least in part, on artificial turf. As a result of its climate and culture, the use of high quality turf is an integral feature of Canadian soccer. Advances in the quality of turf over the past decade have been very significant, and Canada has expended significant resources to increase the number of its stadiums and playing fields with high quality turf.

Canada now has 19 FIFA approved 2-Star turf fields and 67 FIFA approved I-Star turf fields. A list of FIFA approved fields by location throughout the world is attached as Exhibit "L" to Victor Montagliani's affidavit. A review of this list demonstrates that Canada is a leader in developing high quality turf fields. For example, in contrast to Canada, the USA has only approximately 6 FIFA approved 2-Star and approximately 21 FIFA approved I-Star fields. National games may still be played in the USA on turf fields which do not meet FIFA's quality standards. Thus, games in a match organized by the US Association may be played on turf which is lower quality than will be used in the Competition. All of the venues for the Competition, however, will have FIFA approved 2-Star fields.

In 2012, Canada hosted the Confederation of North, Central American and Caribbean Association Football ("CONCACAF") Women's Olympic Qualifying Tournament in Vancouver, which was played on a turf field. Of note is the fact that the US players mentioned in the application played at that tournament without complaint.

Most elite players spend a significant amount of their playing time on turf. This is particularly the case in Canada. If the complaint proceeds, the CSA will demonstrate that there is no increased risk to players from the use of turf rather than grass. This is supported by numerous studies. The topic of playing patterns has also been extensively researched in order to ensure that the game is not changed because of the surface. A string of studies has repeatedly confirmed with scientific evidence that there is no difference between the way the game of soccer is played on grass and turf.

FIFA accepted the CSA's bid for the Competition in March 2011. While no official host cities were announced at that time, it would have been clear to anyone familiar with Canada's facilities that turf would be used for some or all of the games.

On March 21,2013, over 18 months prior to the complaint in this matter being filed, the match schedule for the Competition was announced indicating the stadiums to be used. After this time, there could have been no confusion that the Competition, including the final championship game, would be played on turf. Indeed, that very day, Abby Wambach, one of the players listed in the complaint and a major international soccer star, began tweeting about her opposition to the matches being played on turf and media articles were published about Ms. Wambach's views.

Despite likely being aware for three years, but in any event at least eighteen months, of the circumstances which they say give rise to discrimination, the applicants have now filed a complaint which is incomplete in various ways. In addition to failing to properly identify the applicants, the complaint also lists no documents supporting the complaint other than a memorandum of fact and law drafted by lawyers. Despite the length of time the applicants have been aware of the salient acts, and their assertion that the matter is urgent, no expert reports have been delivered supporting the bald assertions about the dangers of using turf or the purported feasibility of installing grass fields at this late date in the locations at which the Competition is to be held.

Indeed, the applicants have provided no evidence to support their assertion that there is a practical remedy available to them now that will not be available if the hearing is not expedited. There are not enough grass fields in existence in suitable Canadian stadiums to host the Competition. It is clearly impractical to reconstruct the various venues, including three CFL stadiums, to include grass playing fields of sufficient quality. While the applicants suggest that grass fields could be temporarily laid over the turf fields, the results of using temporary grass fields have been very mixed. The applicants have not provided any evidence that a temporary grass surface would be a superior playing surface to the existing turf fields, or that this is a practical solution that can be adopted in all six host cities for all the needed fields.

Should the complaint proceed to be heard on its merits, the complaint is factually contentious. Turf is not a "second class" playing surface. The CSA will prove this by obtaining and filing qualitative and statistical expert evidence about player health and safety on turf, the quality and style of play on turf, the extent of the use of turf fields around the world, the lack of feasibility of the remedies proposed by the applicants and historical evidence about the 2004 decision to allow play on turf in support of the international expansion of the game. This evidence takes time to gather and present in an orderly and comprehensive manner. The complainants have narrowly framed their remedy to target the Competition and thereby create the urgency from their own lack of timeliness.

If the application is, as it appears, primarily an effort by certain players to highlight a disagreement they have with FIFA, the governing body of the soccer Associations to which each player belongs, that is not an appropriate basis on which to demand that this Tribunal modify its procedures and deprive the Respondents of a full and timely opportunity to respond to the legal and factual issues raised by the complaint. The way in which the complaint has been assembled, including the imprecision with respect to the identity of the parties, the lack of evidentiary or documentary support and the lack of clarity with respect to the remedies sought, suggests that the applicants are seeking a symbolic victory, not a practical outcome.
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  #3013  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 8:55 AM
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Ekstrand: The total risk of injury is the same on football turf as it is on natural grass
FIFA.com 07 Nov 2014

With the use of artificial turf in football the subject of much debate, FIFA.com spoke to Jan Ekstrand, Professor in Sports Medicine, team doctor of the Swedish national team in the eighties and nineties and currently vice-chairman of the UEFA Medical Committee. As director of the Football Research Group in Sweden, Ekstrand has carried out a series of studies on the risk of injury on artificial turf, which provide useful scientific data for this discussion.

FIFA.com: What kind of research have you done concerning artificial turf?
Dr. Jan Ekstrand: Some ten years ago, FIFA and UEFA decided to conduct joint research into the issue of injuries on artificial turf. UEFA, actually my research group, was tasked with performing research into elite football in Europe. We carried out a study on top teams that played all of their home matches on artificial turf and their away matches on natural grass in order to compare the incidence of injury on both surfaces. The study was conducted mainly in Scandinavia, but also in the Netherlands and Switzerland. I would like to point out that when we talk about artificial turf, we mean FIFA-certified football turf, what we call football turf or third-generation artificial turf.

Would you conclude that there are more injuries on artificial turf than on natural grass?
The results of all of the studies – the ones we carried out on elite football but also other studies on amateur and youth football as well as in other regions, such as America – are all entirely consistent: the total risk of injury is the same on football turf as it is on natural grass. We see the same result in all studies, there is no increase in injuries when playing on FIFA-certified football turf. Some studies show a small difference in the injury pattern, with an increase in ankle ligament injuries on football turf but a decrease in muscle injuries. I have to say that our studies only focused on injuries that caused absence from either training or matches. There might have been sore muscle or back pain issues that were not part of the studies but that some players and teams have reported.

Are there long-term studies for players who have played regularly on artificial turf?
Our studies focused on short-term injuries causing absence. There are no studies on the long-term effect of playing football in general, whether on artificial turf or on natural grass. This is because it’s extremely difficult to ensure a proper follow-up after 20 or 30 years.

What about leg burn after tackles made on artificial turf? Do you agree that we would not see such injuries on natural grass?
To our surprise, there was no difference there either. This was the most common injury in the seventies with the first artificial turf, which was basically a plastic carpet, but it is not the case today. In fact, we saw more instances of leg burn on natural grass. I think this is a myth which comes from the seventies, when artificial turf was first introduced.

What about the recovery time after injury? It seems to be longer on turf than on natural grass.
There again, there is no difference. All studies have reached the same conclusion.

Does the quality of turf make a big difference?
Well, we don’t know, because there are so many different types of artificial turf and so far there have not been any studies that take into account all of the different parameters. Maintenance is also a very important aspect that hasn’t been studied so far. The studies we have carried out give us a general result: injuries are similar on both surfaces, in general the rate is not higher on football turf. But some questions remain open: for instance, the effect of maintenance or the type of construction of the pitch.

And what about the quality of natural grass?
That’s a good question. We usually make a comparison between artificial turf and good-quality grass. But the reality is different; in many cases, natural grass pitches are of poor quality. I actually suggested at one point to test all pitches as we do for the FIFA-certified football turf, but economically this idea would be very difficult to put in place. But I know from experience in Scandinavia that almost half of all elite matches are played on turf because it allows for a longer season, maintenance is easier and the alternative would be a bad grass pitch because of the weather conditions.

What about the perception of some players who say that the game is different? Does it impact on the body?
The reality is that artificial turf is not very popular among elite coaches and players. This is based on the bad experience in the early days of artificial turf, but there is no scientific substance behind it. The potential impact on the game has been included in different tests and there’s no difference. Perception is one thing and reality is another thing. I visited most of the top clubs in Europe and almost all of them have excellent football turf pitches. Usually the senior squad doesn’t use the turf for training but the academy very often does. So I think it’s a generational issue; the new generation coming from the academies will be used to playing on football turf.

It is sometimes said that it is harder or more demanding to play on artificial turf for “older” players. Can you comment on that?
There’s no study that backs this idea. I think it is more a problem that these players are older and we know, for instance, that muscle injuries increase with age. And actually artificial turf could be potentially better for older players since, as I mentioned before, the risk of muscle injuries decreases on turf.

After all your research, would you say that artificial turf is a safe surface?
Yes, definitely, provided it’s a football turf with a certain quality.

Does the surface have a different impact on male and female players?
No, it’s similar. We have studied this question and there are no differences. But it’s difficult because people have this cliché. I can see it in Sweden, for instance: each time a woman suffers a severe knee injury for instance, people start to blame the turf pitch, but it’s absolutely wrong, there’s no scientific evidence for this.
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  #3014  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 10:31 AM
blueandgoldguy blueandgoldguy is offline
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I wonder what a Women's World Cup generates in terms of overall revenue?

20% of what the Men's World Cup generates? 10%? Less than that?

Professional leagues and sporting events that generate higher revenues tend to provide their players with higher salaries, better facilities, greater perks. So in the end, the Men's World Cup can dictate large minimum stadium capacities, excellent transportation infrastructure, excellent media facilities and entertainment facilities and yes, grass fields (although as has been stated above there is little if any major disadvantage do playing soccer in turf).

Based on the revenues from tickets, advertising, corporate sponsorships and tv rights, the women will have to accept what is given to them. This includes artificial turf. Such is the sad reality of the situation. Larger sums of money (revenue) results in greater entitlements.
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  #3015  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
Here is a schedule of the Women's World Cup for 2015. Edmonton, Montreal and Vancouver will be getting the majority of the matches and the most attractive ones (with Canada) as they should.

http://www.tsn.ca/2015-fifa-women-s-...hedule-1.87758

Winnipeg will get to see some top teams including the US twice. That includes a matchup against Sweden - the 3rd ranked team in the world; Germany - the number 2 ranked team; and Japan - the 4th ranked team. Not bad.
No matches in Toronto??

Edit: Nevermid, I found out it was because of the PanAm games.
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  #3016  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 1:39 PM
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The funny thing is that the Moncton Stadium had a natural turf field (because it is principally a track & field facility), and they replaced it with artificial turf for the FIFA tournament (for uniformity).
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  #3017  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 3:15 PM
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
I wonder what a Women's World Cup generates in terms of overall revenue?

20% of what the Men's World Cup generates? 10%? Less than that?

Professional leagues and sporting events that generate higher revenues tend to provide their players with higher salaries, better facilities, greater perks. So in the end, the Men's World Cup can dictate large minimum stadium capacities, excellent transportation infrastructure, excellent media facilities and entertainment facilities and yes, grass fields (although as has been stated above there is little if any major disadvantage do playing soccer in turf).

Based on the revenues from tickets, advertising, corporate sponsorships and TV rights, the women will have to accept what is given to them. This includes artificial turf. Such is the sad reality of the situation. Larger sums of money (revenue) results in greater entitlements.
How about Zero. The woman's world cup won't make the CSA any money. They are bleeding a pretty penny to put on this show. The end goal has always been the big prize in the Men's World Cup.

With all the revenue sources you stated the CSA will still loose cash. Mind you, Brazil or South Africa for the Men's made money either but they had wasteful, over inflated, and bloated costs to blame (i.e. Manaus Amazon stadium.. literally in the middle of isolated jungle bog). This upcoming women's World Cup was modest on the expenses yet won't break even. The CSA has gone through all the hoops for FIFA, the Men's WC will be here by 2030.

The women will sell tickets, Canada will watch as will a few other nations but it will be far from the 1 billion that watch the Men's WC.

As far as payment money goes the women need to chill in that. If you bring in the same revenues then you get that payout. This is where the "equality" stuff bugs me. Economics and the free market does not judge. Your value is your value in the open market place regardless of your race, gender, orientation.

Next, with Canada and turf it is another example of Canadian cheapness I talked about. Other countries have just as bad climate and manage to grow grass fine. If not they have invested in grass technology to help address the problem. Its great Canada has top notch "II-Star" fields, but we don't even have a true FIFA 4-Star facility anymore since Edmonton ripped out its grass. Though FIFA accepts turf, it prefers grass and for the World Cup it has had a long enforcement of not having knockout games on turf. I believe they approached the CSA at one point to lay grass down but the CSA balked because of costs, and made the case the turf would be superior and FIFA dropped the pressure.
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  #3018  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 7:26 PM
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Originally Posted by osmo View Post
but we don't even have a true FIFA 4-Star facility anymore since Edmonton ripped out its grass. I believe they approached the CSA at one point to lay grass down but the CSA balked because of costs, and made the case the turf would be superior and FIFA dropped the pressure.
??? Proof?

Last edited by elly63; Dec 7, 2014 at 7:45 PM.
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  #3019  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 9:27 PM
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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
I've heard the new TFC fans described as hipster doofuses and a new name that cracks me up "GTA bubble kids" because they haven't been outside their GTA bubble and are clueless to the ROC.

They think that soccer will supersede anything except hockey because even they are not stupid enough to criticize hockey's place in this country. They go out of their way to describe baseball players as fat and out of shape and because soccer has higher participation numbers they think it should also have higher popularity and can't understand why it isn't so.
That's something I've heard from basically anyone who doesn't like baseball. The "it's so boring" put-down is common too. I think what you're describing only applies to a very specific type of TFC fan. I’ve found TFC fans to be extremely diverse and not nearly as obnoxious or delusional about the place of the sport in this country or the popularity of the league. Don’t let views of a few obnoxious and delusional people shape your opinions of soccer fans here because they don't represent most of us who follow the sport (or the league) in the GTA.
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  #3020  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2014, 2:02 PM
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210,000 tickets sold for the Pan Am games so far

http://www.toronto2015.org/news/arch...the-games/1022
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