The Climate Change Discussion Thread

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The only thing that really indicates is that younger people are more serious about virtue signalling. I have seen very little evidence that millennials are willing to lead a lower carbon lifestyle. In fact the opposite, the desire to flex on the gram causes people to undertake high-carbon activities like travel, purchase of high carbon footprint foods and unnecessary consumption. Millennials are also way more server intensive (Bitcoin, etc) than boomers.

So are you implying that Gen Z and Millenials are hypocrites or that virtue signalling is some sort of negative because you see multi millionaire athletes flexing on Instagram?

Virtue signalling is what leads to policy changes and more environmentally sound strategies through the massive pressure exerted on keeping a good public perception. It’s why fossil fuels are essentially transitioning to renewable energy production.

Anyways, a lot of us in the Gen Z are actively trying to find ways to live more sustainable lifestyles and not virtue signalling. For example, I go out of my way to transport using public transit or biking even though in the suburb I am imprisoned in makes it far more convenient to drive a car. Then our family has essentially cut down meat consumption to solely chicken because of the footprint of cattle. We have also ensured our energy is purely renewable (thanks Manitoba Hydro). And then when I graduate Uni I expect to move to the inner city to lower my footprint and make it more convenient to use alternative, more sustainable modes of transportation. Instead of investing in Bitcoin I’d rather invest in Ethereum which when it moves to Proof of Stake will reduce 99% of its emissions. What makes you think that you can make generalizing statements when it’s very likely that the average Gen z or millennial emits less emissions per capita than a boomer or Gen x?

This isn’t an individual example. These small forms of slightly lowering emissions is the key. I know numerous of my friends and peers who are also wishing to pursue this more environmentally and usually economically improved forms of living. If they don’t then usually a dialogue would occur to inform them of the harms furthering that lifestyle entails. We just haven’t reached the age of part of our careers where the significant changes are financially viable or feasible for us.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

CivicBlues was responding to one of my posts, which I stated there was massive birth rate increase, the boomer generation, which lead to the suburban way of life. Which further lead to these families require greater personal vehicles. There was no intent on placing blame on any one thing, or any body for that matter. I think that it’s very easy to unintentionally take things out of context on a forum. I am certainly guilty of it.

Understood. I was just taking your point a step further with my thoughts.

Just my thoughts, nothing more than adding to the conversation.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I never claimed it did.




Oh no.... Their feelings....

I stand by what I said. They can't be blamed for what they did a half century ago. But they most certainly can be blamed for what they are doing today. And long after we are all gone, I suspect history will view them with disdain, not for what they did in the 80s and 90s, but for what they did in the 2000s and 2010s.

"They" is what is problematic here. Governments and corporations are made up of all age groups, yet some want to continually harp on "boomers" as being the evil beings who cause all the problems. Sure, you could state that currently more "boomers" are in positions of power than other age groups, but if you really want to cut to the chase, it's not "they" that are the problem, it's "us" - people, the group to which we all belong that needs to change. The sooner we as a society get our heads around it, the better.

Anything beyond that is just dumb and counterproductive. Just as other posts I've read here blaming "millennials" for everything. As if being of a certain age group means you have to belong to some club that does "this" or "that". Like owning a winter home in another country or living in a mansion. Give me a break.

As usual, beating my head against a proverbial wall.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's not the only elephant in the room. Transport and space heating are larger sources of emissions and we struggle with those. Just imagine how a conversation would go that starts with, "Not everyone can live in a 2000 sqft home heated by natural gas, with 2 gas guzzling SUVs in the driveway." We are still at a point where mandating all electric construction and EV sales by the end of this decade is politically infeasible. Just imagine the fight when we have to retrofit furnaces and water heaters next decade.

Totally agree. On the meat eating side though, you can do it tomorrow for zero cost, and it will actually save you money. In terms of low hanging fruit, it's pretty simple.

Converting existing homes is viable and worthwhile, but it's expensive, and only so many homes can be converted every year unless we have a massive investment in trades.

[CivicBlues]

Hey hey hey now, can't we all just blame the Greatest and Silent Generations for the mess we're in now? I mean they're not likely to be on this board to defend themselves the few who are still alive right?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

"They" is what is problematic here. Governments and corporations are made up of all age groups, yet some want to continually harp on "boomers" as being the evil beings who cause all the problems. Sure, you could state that currently more "boomers" are in positions of power than other age groups, but if you really want to cut to the chase, it's not "they" that are the problem, it's "us" - people, the group to which we all belong that needs to change. The sooner we as a society get our heads around it, the better.

Every generation has its time. And what a cohort does when it has peak power is what determines its legacy. Think of all the governments that Boomers, as a cohort, were pivotal in electing ,over the last two decades particularly. And the policies those governments pushed. Think of all the corporate boards they sat on and the companies they led as CEOs. Think of what those companies pushed. That is what they'll be remembered for, as a group.

When we think of the Greatest Generation, we think of the sacrifices they made. Does that mean every single person in that cohort was selfless? Of course not. But that is how history remembers them as a group. Same idea with Boomers. They'll be defined by what they achieved too. Not individually. But collectively.

I am not sure why this idea seems to get some people really upset. That's just how history works.

[WarrenC12]

The Boomers were the young people that grew up in the 60s and accomplished a lot of social change. They've been riding that for a while and here we are. We'll see if Gen-X and the Millennials can do any better.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The elephant in the room for me is eating meat. Nobody of any political stripe or age group really wants to grapple with how bad it is for the climate, our health (in many circumstances), and the moral question, particularly given how we treat animals in factory farm settings.

The elephant in the room for SSP should be the huge amount of emissions released by the concrete industry.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by whatnext

The elephant in the room for SSP should be the huge amount of emissions released by the concrete industry.

High rise boom is wrecking the planet.

Were also running out of sand, and mining some areas that shouldn't see shovels in the ground.

Nothing about the way we live is remotely sustainable and the conversations were collectively having are somewhat comical for how along we are.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Anything beyond that is just dumb and counterproductive. Just as other posts I've read here blaming "millennials" for everything. As if being of a certain age group means you have to belong to some club that does "this" or "that". Like owning a winter home in another country or living in a mansion. Give me a break.

As usual, beating my head against a proverbial wall.

Sorry for contributing to the derail, everybody. I will add to it any further.

Are "snowbirds" synonymous with millennials and Gen Z?

I have started to feel a great deal of resentment of late towards people like my parents and in-laws who are cluelessly insensitive towards their children's generation. Complaining about lockdown in their massive homes and not being able to go on an annual 3 week vacation when myself and many others in my shoes have been trapped in townhomes and condos with young children with little disposable income to go on lavish trips or take a break. Or asking why we don't just move to a larger home when they occupy houses once intended for growing families driving the cost beyond the grasp of their own children.

More generally all you hear in return is how hard it was for them in the 80's and how we just need to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and spend less money on coffee. Mockery of Millennials was rampant long before the reckoning facing the Boomers regarding Climate Change. We are addressing the moral abdication of that generation while they mock us for drinking lattes at Starbucks.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The Boomers were the young people that grew up in the 60s and accomplished a lot of social change. They've been riding that for a while and here we are. We'll see if Gen-X and the Millennials can do any better.

Off topic to this thread, but their progressivity in the 60s suited them well. Sexual revolution happened exactly as they came of age. Anti-war movement? Just as they were getting called up for Vietnam. They demanded all kinds of workers rights and social programs as they entered the workforce. They fought "the man" until they became him in the 90s. Then those Boomer middle managers shipped the jobs to China and Mexico, voted for governments imposing austerity and sent their kids off to fight in Iraq and Afghanistan. And for good measure, the US is even back to the debate on abortion now, now that unplanned pregnancy isn't a Boomer concern.

All that said, as far as generational cohorts go, the Boomers were mostly just spoiled hypocrites. The Silent Generation. There's the real assholes. They often get mixed up with the Greatest Generation, despite never having had to struggle through the depression or fight in WWII. They were staunchly conservative most of their lives. And virtually on the wrong side of every great debate of the last half century (at minimum). Imagine the last great political act of your generation being staunch support for Donald Trump.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by whatnext

The elephant in the room for SSP should be the huge amount of emissions released by the concrete industry.

Already being worked on.

First with alternative materials like cross-laminated timber. Canada is a leader in low carbon concrete. And the feds are even considering making it a requirement in federal building contracts. It's a big problem, but it's less intractable than more consumer facing changes that are hard to sell.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

In the past, things went the way they did for reasons that we may not be able to understand now. Yet, in the internet age 'we' all feel the need to place judgement and blame on some group for things that happened that we don't like.

I'm not trying to blame anybody. It is clear that we continue to build in unsustainable ways according to the precedent set by the generations that came before us. My point was that just as we once went from compact, walkable, transit-dependent cities to car centric suburban sprawl, we can choose to reverse the process.

Anyone who claims that you can't walk or take transit in Canada because of winter, or because of our country's size is lying, because that is how everyone got around before the car.

I will also point out that claiming suburban sprawl was only fueled by the rise of the automobile is disingenuous. White flight to the suburbs was also fueled by more than a little racism and fear of urban neighbors who didn't look "Canadian" enough.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Hey hey hey now, can't we all just blame the Greatest and Silent Generations for the mess we're in now? I mean they're not likely to be on this board to defend themselves the few who are still alive right?

Blame people - I assume we're all people, right?

For the record, I'm not defending anybody, I just think that the situation in the entire world - climate, politics, culture, etc. - and how they all intertwine: past, present, and future, is much much too complicated to blame on one group. And frankly it sounds kind of silly when people do it.

I'll say it again... of what value is placing blame on anybody?

Oh yeah... boomers. Rich boomers. Rich boomers who have never had anything difficult to deal with in their lives. Everything given to them, spoiled. Self-involved, greedy, egotistical, narcissistic... or to sum it up in a word: assholes.

Yeah, I hate 'em too...

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Every generation has its time. And what a cohort does when it has peak power is what determines its legacy. Think of all the governments that Boomers, as a cohort, were pivotal in electing ,over the last two decades particularly. And the policies those governments pushed. Think of all the corporate boards they sat on and the companies they led as CEOs. Think of what those companies pushed. That is what they'll be remembered for, as a group.

When we think of the Greatest Generation, we think of the sacrifices they made. Does that mean every single person in that cohort was selfless? Of course not. But that is how history remembers them as a group. Same idea with Boomers. They'll be defined by what they achieved too. Not individually. But collectively.

I am not sure why this idea seems to get some people really upset. That's just how history works.

That just sounds like a whole bunch of stereotypes all put together to describe a 'type' of person that you despise. I despise those people too, but to generalize them as 'boomers' seems... stupid.

If you are referring to me being really upset, then you're reading the situation incorrectly. Granted, I do become frustrated when I read the same drivel over and over again, like people saying negative things about millennials or any other age group - it's just shows a level of ignorance and a lack of understanding of society, IMHO. It's tiresome.

At the same time, it is an internet messageboard, so I realize that none of it should be taken too seriously. And honestly, much of what I type here is in amusement of how the whole world is burning down around us, and rather than putting out the fire we are trying to decide who to blame for setting it, while others are sitting around tabulating how many buckets of water each group has collected and shaming the groups who have collected less than the others - when in reality nobody is doing enough. I get a kick out of irony and dark humour, FWIW.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The Boomers were the young people that grew up in the 60s and accomplished a lot of social change. They've been riding that for a while and here we are. We'll see if Gen-X and the Millennials can do any better.

I think it's foolish to define a generation by a set time frame, but whatever... it's the popular thing to do. Thank the marketing folks for that one - they made a lot of money from it, apparently.

Accepting all of this, though, I think that each generation rises to whatever challenges their time presents.

Generally speaking, the 'greatest generation' grew up in a world where the industrial revolution was coming of age. The world was in turmoil with 2 world wars and a great depression. They were shaped by this world and became who they were from it. I've known older people who had more money than they knew what to do with, but still lived like paupers because the depression taught them to not be wasteful.

The 'boomer' generation grew up in a world that was recovering from war. If you're talking Americans, there was a great deal of wealth and opportunity to go around. A lot of them had parents who had been traumatized by war and poverty, but who wanted their kids lives to be better than theirs was. The kids pushed back against the conservatism of their parents and along came sex, drugs and rock'n'roll. Then they grew up and took advantage of the great wealth and opportunity available to them, and took greed and optimization to a new level.

The world was in a relatively calm period, but with the "cold war" and the thought that some jackass triggering a nuclear war with the push of a button always looming in the background. This is the first time in history that any generation had to deal with that kind of threat, and I think it triggered a 'me first' mindset among many.

The generations following grew up with cell phones, the internet, social media, and a world starting to fall into turmoil again. The way that people communicated, for better or worse, was changing. Antisocial behaviours that were unimaginable to past generations, like school shootings for example, gripped the mindset in ways that hadn't been seen before, partially due to the proliferation of idea sets magnified by 'small group' settings now attainable due to the internet.

The idea of living life as consumers with the goal being to get more stuff, was finally getting some backlash, and the pushback against previous generations continued.

Serious political and social strife now hang low over the heads of the younger generations. Environmental disaster looming over us all, used to be described as pollution which seems almost cute in the light of the climate change armageddon we are now facing.

This is very simplistic, but I think it illustrates how we all rise to face the world presented to us. Some of us feel hopeless and angry, so we lash out at previous generations for 'doing it to us', even though that wasn't their intention. Their naivety isn't an excuse because it got us in so much trouble.

Kind of the way the boomer generation felt towards those who created the nuclear threat. Second world war was out of control, there was a technology race to create bigger and more powerful weapon, so the H bomb and A bomb were created to show the other side that they couldn't win. It ended the war but the fallout was much bigger than the bomb that fell on Hiroshima. Fast forward 20 years and nations are starting to have enough power to destroy the world, and each one holds the others hostage with the understanding that they are not to be used, or we are all toast. But all it takes is one lunatic to do the wrong thing... yeah, anger and outrage towards those people. They have power over us and the capability to end the world as we know it.

My point is that every person is born innocent, unaware of what they will have to deal with as they go through their lives. They, in a sense, are products of their time and their environment, and will rise or fall based on what challenges they will face. None of it makes me feel too positive about it all, but we just have to try to do what we can to survive and live our lives, and try to make the world a better place in whatever way we can.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Are "snowbirds" synonymous with millennials and Gen Z?

I have started to feel a great deal of resentment of late towards people like my parents and in-laws who are cluelessly insensitive towards their children's generation. Complaining about lockdown in their massive homes and not being able to go on an annual 3 week vacation when myself and many others in my shoes have been trapped in townhomes and condos with young children with little disposable income to go on lavish trips or take a break. Or asking why we don't just move to a larger home when they occupy houses once intended for growing families driving the cost beyond the grasp of their own children.

More generally all you hear in return is how hard it was for them in the 80's and how we just need to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and spend less money on coffee. Mockery of Millennials was rampant long before the reckoning facing the Boomers regarding Climate Change. We are addressing the moral abdication of that generation while they mock us for drinking lattes at Starbucks.

Snowbirds are synonymous with retirees, IMHO, very few of which would be millennials and gen Ys.

With all due respect, the people you describe sound like selfish jerks. I try not to know people like that, but you can't choose family.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Snowbirds are synonymous with retirees, IMHO, very few of which would be millennials and gen Ys.

Exactly my point.

With all due respect, the people you describe sound like selfish jerks. I try not to know people like that, but you can't choose family.

The last paragraph wasn’t specific to my family (more of a general thing I’ve seen with Boomers on social media). My father does seem to think all Millennials are lazy and entitled though. Their clueless insensitivity seems to be a common trait that I’ve noticed with Boomers. Particularly when it comes to the housing market.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

So are you implying that Gen Z and Millenials are hypocrites or that virtue signalling is some sort of negative because you see multi millionaire athletes flexing on Instagram?

Virtue signalling is what leads to policy changes and more environmentally sound strategies through the massive pressure exerted on keeping a good public perception. It’s why fossil fuels are essentially transitioning to renewable energy production.

Anyways, a lot of us in the Gen Z are actively trying to find ways to live more sustainable lifestyles and not virtue signalling. For example, I go out of my way to transport using public transit or biking even though in the suburb I am imprisoned in makes it far more convenient to drive a car. Then our family has essentially cut down meat consumption to solely chicken because of the footprint of cattle. We have also ensured our energy is purely renewable (thanks Manitoba Hydro). And then when I graduate Uni I expect to move to the inner city to lower my footprint and make it more convenient to use alternative, more sustainable modes of transportation. Instead of investing in Bitcoin I’d rather invest in Ethereum which when it moves to Proof of Stake will reduce 99% of its emissions. What makes you think that you can make generalizing statements when it’s very likely that the average Gen z or millennial emits less emissions per capita than a boomer or Gen x?

This isn’t an individual example. These small forms of slightly lowering emissions is the key. I know numerous of my friends and peers who are also wishing to pursue this more environmentally and usually economically improved forms of living. If they don’t then usually a dialogue would occur to inform them of the harms furthering that lifestyle entails. We just haven’t reached the age of part of our careers where the significant changes are financially viable or feasible for us.

Millennials said the same thing 15 years ago, then they moved to the burbs, bought SUVs, and started taking their kids on Disney cruises (if they could afford it). Boomers probably lived and thought like you do when they were your age, then the 60s hippies became the 80s yuppies and the 90s SUV drivers.

Maybe Gen Z is different. Maybe once they start making money they will eschew exotic travel, raise kids in apartments, bring their kids to hockey practice on the bus and stop eating avocados, chocolate, beef and palm oil. I doubt it though.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I think it's foolish to define a generation by a set time frame, but whatever... it's the popular thing to do. Thank the marketing folks for that one - they made a lot of money from it, apparently.

Accepting all of this, though, I think that each generation rises to whatever challenges their time presents.

Generally speaking, the 'greatest generation' grew up in a world where the industrial revolution was coming of age. The world was in turmoil with 2 world wars and a great depression. They were shaped by this world and became who they were from it. I've known older people who had more money than they knew what to do with, but still lived like paupers because the depression taught them to not be wasteful.

The 'boomer' generation grew up in a world that was recovering from war. If you're talking Americans, there was a great deal of wealth and opportunity to go around. A lot of them had parents who had been traumatized by war and poverty, but who wanted their kids lives to be better than theirs was. The kids pushed back against the conservatism of their parents and along came sex, drugs and rock'n'roll. Then they grew up and took advantage of the great wealth and opportunity available to them, and took greed and optimization to a new level.

The world was in a relatively calm period, but with the "cold war" and the thought that some jackass triggering a nuclear war with the push of a button always looming in the background. This is the first time in history that any generation had to deal with that kind of threat, and I think it triggered a 'me first' mindset among many.

The generations following grew up with cell phones, the internet, social media, and a world starting to fall into turmoil again. The way that people communicated, for better or worse, was changing. Antisocial behaviours that were unimaginable to past generations, like school shootings for example, gripped the mindset in ways that hadn't been seen before, partially due to the proliferation of idea sets magnified by 'small group' settings now attainable due to the internet.

The idea of living life as consumers with the goal being to get more stuff, was finally getting some backlash, and the pushback against previous generations continued.

Serious political and social strife now hang low over the heads of the younger generations. Environmental disaster looming over us all, used to be described as pollution which seems almost cute in the light of the climate change armageddon we are now facing.

This is very simplistic, but I think it illustrates how we all rise to face the world presented to us. Some of us feel hopeless and angry, so we lash out at previous generations for 'doing it to us', even though that wasn't their intention. Their naivety isn't an excuse because it got us in so much trouble.

Kind of the way the boomer generation felt towards those who created the nuclear threat. Second world war was out of control, there was a technology race to create bigger and more powerful weapon, so the H bomb and A bomb were created to show the other side that they couldn't win. It ended the war but the fallout was much bigger than the bomb that fell on Hiroshima. Fast forward 20 years and nations are starting to have enough power to destroy the world, and each one holds the others hostage with the understanding that they are not to be used, or we are all toast. But all it takes is one lunatic to do the wrong thing... yeah, anger and outrage towards those people. They have power over us and the capability to end the world as we know it.

My point is that every person is born innocent, unaware of what they will have to deal with as they go through their lives. They, in a sense, are products of their time and their environment, and will rise or fall based on what challenges they will face. None of it makes me feel too positive about it all, but we just have to try to do what we can to survive and live our lives, and try to make the world a better place in whatever way we can.

That’s an interesting and well thought out take. I can agree with many points. However, there is something that you’re missing. Boomers aren’t some historical generation out of power where there’s 20/20 hindsight. They continue to sabotage and stand in the way of action on Climate Change and appear hellbent on extracting as much as they can before death (be it real estate, travel, wealth in general). They are like the drunken captain of the ship heading for an iceberg while everyone else tries to wrestle the wheel away.

Edit: I realize there’s also young shitheads who roll coal and don’t care about pollution but we’re speaking in broad terms here.