Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[wave46]

It is an interesting comparison between the two NHL franchises trying to get new arenas built. To wit:

The Senators have participated in a public process to redevelop unused land.
The Flames have offered an unsolicited plan without consulting the city first.

The Sens have not requested public funding (yet).
The Flames have.

The Sens have largely built their bid around getting consensus and treading lightly from a PR point of view.
The Flames have picked up the bullhorn.

What's the takeaway from this?

The Senators have approached this in the right fashion. They haven't created a divisive atmosphere around their new arena, so if (IMO it will be 'when') they approach government for money, they're more likely to get some charity.

The Flames have made a point to play politics. It could backfire spectacularly. Then they've effectively screwed themselves, since Nenshi isn't likely to offer them a better deal if he's re-elected. It looks especially bad as Nenshi looks like the reasonable one in this debate whereas the Flames look greedy.

Final word: The 'tread lightly and build consensus' seems to work better in Canada.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by wave46

It is an interesting comparison between the two NHL franchises trying to get new arenas built. To wit:

The Senators have participated in a public process to redevelop unused land.
The Flames have offered an unsolicited plan without consulting the city first.

The Sens have not requested public funding (yet).
The Flames have.?

I'm curious who would foot the bill for a Senators new arena? The Sens have the smallest fan base in Canada, even smaller the the Jets. Will a local firm or or trust fund step in to build a new arena? If tax dollars are not use I can't see it happening.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by WpG_GuY

Still think it has the best looking exterior of all arenas in Canada (especially from street level)

[craner]

Originally Posted by WpG_GuY

The concourse upgrades at Bell MTS Place.

It's a handsome building.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by craner

It's a handsome building.

Had a tour last week, beautiful shot...but these types of buildings have a block or more long dead walls to each side.

[esquire]

^ The site meant compromises in certain aspects (it is fairly cramped inside relative to most newer NHL rinks... it has been said more than once that it's really the initially conceived 12,000 seat arena with 15,000 seats jammed inside) but the upside is that it is really well integrated into the urban fabric. The solid design helps in that respect.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ The site meant compromises in certain aspects (it is fairly cramped inside relative to most newer NHL rinks... it has been said more than once that it's really the initially conceived 12,000 seat arena with 15,000 seats jammed inside) but the upside is that it is really well integrated into the urban fabric. The solid design helps in that respect.

Better to have a smaller rink that fills out more often than a big rink that struggles to sell out IMO.

I'd love to hit up a Jets game in Winnipeg. I've seen them in Arizona, but a home crowd is always more fun.

[Coldrsx]

So many people were talking about how impressive this area is becoming while walking to Rogers last night. Great to see the jerseys Downtown again!


www.twitter.com/ianoyeg

[Oilkountry]

Another note on MTS upgrades one person on HF commented that the concourses seem bigger because the vendors were forced to take up less space

Is it my imagination, or did they increase the corridor widths by decreasing the depths of the food concession stands?

They did get some stuff out of the way - like that jersey customizing station that was at the south end that stuck out into the concourse. Seems like there are more and smaller concessions (though many weren't open last night) so that may be helping with the traffic flow...it seemed pretty reasonable last night but I was at the game with a enochlophobe so I didn't get to traverse the entire main level concourse. My impression of the south end is that it's more open.

I'm really glad they finally made use of the Main atrium. With the "observation deck" The concourses have enough bar type places now that it should alleviate some strain

[drew]

I think that's quite right.

Ottawa is known in sports circles for being a big "walk-up" crowd city and being in Kanata the Senators have totally isolated themselves from that phenomenon.

^ the number of seats isn't as important as the price you can sell the seat for.

For new arenas, the more seats you add, the more money it costs to build the structure, all for the benefit of adding seats that sell for the lowest possible cost.

IMO, there is a sweet spot for "medium" size Canadian cities in terms of Arena capacity. It certainly isn't 19k or 20k. I think 17k is probably around the ideal capacity, both in terms of driving demand and keeping building and maintenance costs down.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by drew

^ the number of seats isn't as important as the price you can sell the seat for.

Yes and no. From a maximizing game day ticket revenue pov you're right but making the team accessible is also important. If fans get priced out of ever attending games due to scarcity of seats/high prices some will eventually move on to other sports and other leagues.

When that happens the tv audience declines, merchandise sales decline, and competition from other entertainment options intensifies. If it's allowed to continue for a generation the sporting culture of a city can change.

This has happened to the Leafs (and hockey) in Toronto. With just 1 team for 9 million people in the Greater Golden Horseshoe people who may have become fans never gave the Leafs or the NHL a try. Some who were already fans got fed up of being shut out and moved on to something else. They're not coming back.... EVER.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by isaidso

They're not coming back.... EVER.

I came back as a lot of other people I know have well.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Yes and no. From a maximizing game day ticket revenue pov you're right but making the team accessible is also important. If fans get priced out of ever attending games due to scarcity of seats/high prices some will eventually move on to other sports and other leagues.

When that happens the tv audience declines, merchandise sales decline, and competition from other entertainment options intensifies. If it's allowed to continue for a generation the sporting culture of a city can change.

This has happened to the Leafs (and hockey) in Toronto. With just 1 team for 9 million people in the Greater Golden Horseshoe people who may have become fans never gave the Leafs or the NHL a try. Some who were already fans got fed up of being shut out and moved on to something else. They're not coming back.... EVER.

This. I don't understand the (seemingly dominant) position on here that ticket scarcity is a good thing. You actually want it to be hard to get access to your sports teams? I get that fuller venues are more fun than emptier ones but just downsizing the venue until it hits its regular guests target, or even its max profit target, just seems like a race to the bottom for sports fandom. Why are people so concerned about how much money the team owners make?

I get that it can be a problem in the CFL where we want our teams to be healthy, but I think if you built the Lions a smaller stadium, nothing would change. Hell, you can see that with the Argonauts now.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

This. I don't understand the (seemingly dominant) position on here that ticket scarcity is a good thing. You actually want it to be hard to get access to your sports teams? I get that fuller venues are more fun than emptier ones but just downsizing the venue until it hits its regular guests target, or even its max profit target, just seems like a race to the bottom for sports fandom. Why are people so concerned about how much money the team owners make?

I get that it can be a problem in the CFL where we want our teams to be healthy, but I think if you built the Lions a smaller stadium, nothing would change. Hell, you can see that with the Argonauts now.

Because the bottom line is the whole purpose for professional sports. Maximizing revenue ultimately decided whether your team stays or goes.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Because the bottom line is the whole purpose for professional sports. Maximizing revenue ultimately decided whether your team stays or goes.

I think sports teams do fine just about everywhere in Canada. With regards to the Senators, they're not gonna leave if you build a 21,000 seat arena as opposed to one with 17,000 seats.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Yes and no. From a maximizing game day ticket revenue pov you're right but making the team accessible is also important. If fans get priced out of ever attending games due to scarcity of seats/high prices some will eventually move on to other sports and other leagues.

When that happens the tv audience declines, merchandise sales decline, and competition from other entertainment options intensifies. If it's allowed to continue for a generation the sporting culture of a city can change.

This has happened to the Leafs (and hockey) in Toronto. With just 1 team for 9 million people in the Greater Golden Horseshoe people who may have become fans never gave the Leafs or the NHL a try. Some who were already fans got fed up of being shut out and moved on to something else. They're not coming back.... EVER.

Leafs fandom is still sky high here in Toronto even with many fans not able to set foot in the building to watch a game. The Leaf machine is something else as I have never seen a market, to put up with such a crappy team with cost hurdles in the place like the Leafs. The Leafs still have hundreds of thousands of willing fans who would go to the games if they could. Even the season prior to last year with the rebuild, not like the Leafs lost money from the gate, it is just many season ticket holder just didn't waste their time to go to games. That was the first season many new fans were able to set foot into the building to watch a regular season Leafs game. Many of these new fans were in shock at the prices inside the building compared to the Gardens where they likely saw a game the last time.

Leafs get bailed out because they have a history of tight supply with tickets going back to the Garden. Many Season Seats are held in families or arrangements between parties and folks just accept that.

The Raptors are just as tight to get into for games, 5-6 year waiting list for Season Seats and yet fans still go.

The move in sports is to cater to the premium buyer versus going off the volume. You can make money off premium ticket holders while offering freebies and cheapies to kids, and families to still keep them in the mix to keep the fanbase alive and going. This all works it better versus going for volume and having to affordable options for the working Joe Six Pack.

Where folks start getting angry is with food and beverages. There is a price peak you can charge for a hot dog and some teams have tried to push it with push back. The irony is that many premium options have the biggest discounts as teams can't justify charging the real price. For example, the ACC rib sandwich has been a staple since the old Hot Stove days and the real price of those sandwiches is around $36.00. The Leafs only charge around $24 for it because nobody would pay $36 for a sandwich, especially premium seat holders that just put down $300 for a seat to the game. The use it as a loss leader though as those folks will load up on high-priced wines and drinks and other premium options.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by osmo

Leafs fandom is still sky high here in Toronto even with many fans not able to set foot in the building to watch a game. The Leaf machine is something else as I have never seen a market, to put up with such a crappy team with cost hurdles in the place like the Leafs. The Leafs still have hundreds of thousands of willing fans who would go to the games if they could. Even the season prior to last year with the rebuild, not like the Leafs lost money from the gate, .

This is definitely true.

I'd say the Habs fandom is equal or greater to that of the Leafs at the moment but the Habs have also been much better and more competitive in recent years than the Leafs have. I really don't think that the Habs would be where the Leafs are right now fan-wise (which is to say still extremely strong) had they been so bad for so many generations.

If the Leafs actually become a true contender - watch out.

[J.OT13]

We probably could support a 21,000 seat arena downtown, but I think the ambiance would take a hit. There are two other major factors to consider in Ottawa;

• Other than the grants and tax breaks related to cleanup of the contaminated site (and possibly asking for getting the air rights over the O-Train for free), which are already built in to the City's policy, the Sens likely won't be asking for any direct assistance to build the new arena , that means a limited budget;
• The restrictive site between the Sir John A. MacDonald Parkway and the Confederation Line probably doesn't allow anything more than 18,000 seats.

[240glt]

Unfortunately I think the Flames organization has been emboldened by the sweetheart deal that happened in Edmonton, but in the end I don't think they'll go the same route. I think Calgary's got a backbone, As much as I am not a huge Nenshi fan I think he's got this one right. We'll see how it goes

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by jawagord

Like the $300 million Neshi spent on the airport tunnel to nowhere, when there is perfectly good access 1 km north on Country Hills Blvd? Or the $250 million on the new library, just what Calgary needed in the digital age another 240,000 sq. ft. of premium space in the downtown.

And what corporation reaps massive profits off either of these?