NC LRT Advocacy Group

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

And the point I am making and is shared by my dumbshit geezer friends at Calgary Transit is using a completely untenable situation operating out of nothing other than sheer necessity, adding the fourth car to the consist and extrapolating that into the potential capacity of 7th Ave and saying grade separation will never be necessary is ridiculous.

Who? Neil, Fred and Doug?

One of them (who will remain anonymous) admitted to me that the Nose Creek alignment was created because Council required them to come up with something quickly for the NC line. They themselves admitted that it isn't a good plan based on capacity on 7th and several other reasons.

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

But you aren't really talking about interlining at all, you are talking about headways.

If you increase headways to a level appropriate for such an environment you just blew away most of the capacity you keep raving about making grade separation unnecessary. Which has been my point all along.

What I'm saying is that one train line at 2.5 minute headways will have less delays than 2 lines, each at 5 minute headways, and cascading delays would be virtually eliminated. Also, we won't have to go as short as 2.5 minute headways on the 202 line for many decades.

[Tropics]

Originally Posted by kw5150

Im thinking this new LRT (if it goes through the centre street area) will evolve to be something like the Commercial drive area in Vancouver.....a huge success.

I think that is in fact your main focus. I think the actual transportation aspect of the line and the use it has to move people about in the city is a side effect to this development you envision is going to make Center Street into some sort of high density urban mecca of shopping, restaurants and condo developments.

You will have to forgive those of us that are look at a NC LRT line as a form of transit.

[polishavenger]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Interlining doesn't reduce capacity, it is just a way of allocating capacity. But you already knew that.

Of course it reduces capacity. They only way it doesnt is if both lines are not anticipated to run at full capacity at any point, or the peak requirements fall at different times. In the case of Calgary LRT, peak travel time on all lines falls within the traditional rush hour period, so assuming the same amount of trains, two interlining lines can only run at 50% full capacity.

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by Tropics

I think that is in fact your main focus. I think the actual transportation aspect of the line and the use it has to move people about in the city is a side effect to this development you envision is going to make Center Street into some sort of high density urban mecca of shopping, restaurants and condo developments.

You will have to forgive those of us that are look at a NC LRT line as a form of transit.

Yeah, the worst kind of transit......transit for transit sake only...... with no thought of community, the social aspect, and completely removing development from any branch of environmental psychology. Don't even spend the money if it is going to run along Nose Creek.

This is not Sim City. Healthy cities dont happen on figures alone.

Remember, you were the same person advocating for the redevelopment of the CPR tracks downtown, a huge cost to the city and an urban dream. Stop flip flopping.

[lineman]

Originally Posted by Tropics

This is the trick. There is a swath of land west of the golf course that could be used as the line along there, likely cut and cover underground. (The Red Line). You would need to go under that one hole on the NW edge.

The other option is to run between Fox Hollow and the Elks Golf course (shown in blue).

If that 'cut and cover' line were straight, you would almost be the same distance along Centre between downtown and McKnight. So much for significant cost savings.

[Tropics]

Originally Posted by kw5150

Remember, you were the same person advocating for the redevelopment of the CPR tracks downtown, a huge cost to the city and an urban dream. Stop flip flopping.

I see alot more practical benefits in doing that then I do in "having" to go up centre street with the LRT.

I don't see how being 6 blocks to the east of Centre Street in the beginning and then linking in to centre street at 41st ave is some major game changer to you.

I actually see the potential of condo and TOD developments in the area around Nose Creek as alot higher then on the already developed Centre Street. The potential for condos built along the slope of the valley, some environmental design and landscaping to use Nose Creek as a really big attraction for condo developments that incorperate it into their public areas. The incorperation of the Nose Creek Bike Path into those developments which would actually have very reasonable length bike commutes into the DT core in the months when biking is viable.

The way I see it is you are opening up alot of land to development that is atm not really practical for development. Centre Street is already being redeveloped and density is increasing, the Nose Creek area would see far more postive effects through the inclusion of a LRT track through that area as long as the city was proactive on seeing the proper intial redevelopment take the right track, which they have no problem doing as evidenced by the Bridges project and the control they are taking over the redevelopment in Westbrook. if the city wanted to they could not only have a really functional and highly used LRT route through there, but they could also set off a huge development of that entire line through there. That area actually has alot of unrealized and by most people unnoticed potential.

[Tropics]

Originally Posted by lineman

If that 'cut and cover' line were straight, you would almost be the same distance along Centre between downtown and McKnight. So much for significant cost savings.

The blue line could easily be at grade.

As far as the red line cut and cover is WAY cheaper in an open field without much in the way of roads, utility lines, houses in the way, interuptions to traffic for a year, shoring up slopes to make sure that adjacent buildings and structures do not incur damage, having to rip up an entire road and remove the asphalt, re-biuld the entire road after construction, ect...

There is nothing remotely similar to the costs of cut and cover on that open piece of land I suggested and the cut and cover up the entire of Centre Street. None at all.

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by Tropics

I see alot more practical benefits in doing that then I do in "having" to go up centre street with the LRT.

I don't see how being 6 blocks to the east of Centre Street in the beginning and then linking in to centre street at 41st ave is some major game changer to you.

I actually see the potential of condo and TOD developments in the area around Nose Creek as alot higher then on the already developed Centre Street. The potential for condos built along the slope of the valley, some environmental design and landscaping to use Nose Creek as a really big attraction for condo developments that incorperate it into their public areas. The incorperation of the Nose Creek Bike Path into those developments which would actually have very reasonable length bike commutes into the DT core in the months when biking is viable.

The way I see it is you are opening up alot of land to development that is atm not really practical for development. Centre Street is already being redeveloped and density is increasing, the Nose Creek area would see far more postive effects through the inclusion of a LRT track through that area as long as the city was proactive on seeing the proper intial redevelopment take the right track, which they have no problem doing as evidenced by the Bridges project and the control they are taking over the redevelopment in Westbrook. if the city wanted to they could not only have a really functional and highly used LRT route through there, but they could also set off a huge development of that entire line through there. That area actually has alot of unrealized and by most people unnoticed potential.

Once again, this is not Sim City. Why do people try to force things on areas that never have potential.

Westbrook was a fully functional neighborhood before the LRT. Good choice for LRT

Bridgeland.....hmmmmm That LRT station has taken years to catch on for some reason......

Nose Creek......How the hell would nose creek attract anyone?? There are literally no amenities, restaurants, public realms, high streets............

Im just not convinced at all.

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by Tropics

I see alot more practical benefits in doing that then I do in "having" to go up centre street with the LRT.

I don't see how being 6 blocks to the east of Centre Street in the beginning and then linking in to centre street at 41st ave is some major game changer to you.

I actually see the potential of condo and TOD developments in the area around Nose Creek as alot higher then on the already developed Centre Street. The potential for condos built along the slope of the valley, some environmental design and landscaping to use Nose Creek as a really big attraction for condo developments that incorperate it into their public areas. The incorperation of the Nose Creek Bike Path into those developments which would actually have very reasonable length bike commutes into the DT core in the months when biking is viable.

The way I see it is you are opening up alot of land to development that is atm not really practical for development. Centre Street is already being redeveloped and density is increasing, the Nose Creek area would see far more postive effects through the inclusion of a LRT track through that area as long as the city was proactive on seeing the proper intial redevelopment take the right track, which they have no problem doing as evidenced by the Bridges project and the control they are taking over the redevelopment in Westbrook. if the city wanted to they could not only have a really functional and highly used LRT route through there, but they could also set off a huge development of that entire line through there. That area actually has alot of unrealized and by most people unnoticed potential.

I dont buy this at all. Cities dont just pop up and become functional and interesting overnight. A lot of Calgary has unnoticed potential......that doesnt mean they deserve an LRT line that makes no sense. Even Edmonton has more attractive plans for LRT than this Nose Creek crap.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by polishavenger

Of course it reduces capacity. They only way it doesnt is if both lines are not anticipated to run at full capacity at any point, or the peak requirements fall at different times. In the case of Calgary LRT, peak travel time on all lines falls within the traditional rush hour period, so assuming the same amount of trains, two interlining lines can only run at 50% full capacity.

Capacity is the number of trains that can use a given length of track in a certain time. All it does is increase potential utilization and potentially reduce transfers.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by fusili

Who? Neil, Fred and Doug?

One of them (who will remain anonymous) admitted to me that the Nose Creek alignment was created because Council required them to come up with something quickly for the NC line. They themselves admitted that it isn't a good plan based on capacity on 7th and several other reasons.

I'm not here to drop names, and quite frankly the North Central LRT hasn't really come up beyond an exasperated "Please... not this again."

[You Need A Thneed]

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is the purchase of land for a ROW from CP Rail. The land for the WLRT from CP cost something like $200 million. The amount required for a nose creek route would be significantly more.

The more I think about it, the more even I see the costs between the two options.

[lineman]

Originally Posted by Tropics

The blue line could easily be at grade.

As far as the red line cut and cover is WAY cheaper in an open field without much in the way of roads, utility lines, houses in the way, interuptions to traffic for a year, shoring up slopes to make sure that adjacent buildings and structures do not incur damage, having to rip up an entire road and remove the asphalt, re-biuld the entire road after construction, ect...

There is nothing remotely similar to the costs of cut and cover on that open piece of land I suggested and the cut and cover up the entire of Centre Street. None at all.

Actually, if you research beyond Google maps and conjecture, your redline route has storm drains, water and power throughout. I wouldn't be surprised if there were gas pipelines in the area too. So much for WAY cheaper.

[lineman]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is the purchase of land for a ROW from CP Rail. The land for the WLRT from CP cost something like $200 million. The amount required for a nose creek route would be significantly more.

The more I think about it, the more even I see the costs between the two options.

I'm sure CP would put the city over a barrel. Let's not forget that it would be built within the Nose Creek watershed too. Environmental studies, remediation, testing, etc.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

What I'm saying is that one train line at 2.5 minute headways will have less delays than 2 lines, each at 5 minute headways, and cascading delays would be virtually eliminated. Also, we won't have to go as short as 2.5 minute headways on the 202 line for many decades.

That is still at its core a headway issue in a system operating with no slack.

If you want to argue against interlining talk about single points of failure, talk about complicated signalling and switching or talk about passenger confusion.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is the purchase of land for a ROW from CP Rail. The land for the WLRT from CP cost something like $200 million. The amount required for a nose creek route would be significantly more.

The more I think about it, the more even I see the costs between the two options.

It probably hasn't been mentioned because it just isn't true. But please, don't let that stop you...

As presently conceived the Nose Creek LRT will be built almost entirely on city owned land. Although apparently the province broached the subject of a land-swap that would put the LRT in the QE2 ROW so that the province might use the potential Nose Creek alignment for HSR.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by lineman

Let's not forget that it would be built within the Nose Creek watershed too. Environmental studies, remediation, testing, etc.

All worked through years ago and not overwhelming issues.

[Doug]

As I stated earlier, there is massive potential for TOD along a Nose Creek alignment. The City owns the land leased to Fox Hollow, the Midfield mobile home park, Spring Gardens transit centre and the adjacent maintenance yard. Combine that with the easily acquired Elks Golf Course and Green View industrial park and there would be several thousand acres waiting for redevelopment. An east west park and pathway connection could be built to link up to Confederation/Queens park and the 32nd Ave connector could be redesigned. Nose Creek itself could be restored with meanders and green space and maybe commercial adjacent to the LRT and freight lines. Commercial development could also be pushed adjacent to Deerfoot to provide a buffer. Centre Street would be one large NIMBY disaster.

[Tropics]

Originally Posted by lineman

Actually, if you research beyond Google maps and conjecture, your redline route has storm drains, water and power throughout. I wouldn't be surprised if there were gas pipelines in the area too. So much for WAY cheaper.

You are going to use that as am arguement against going along centre street? Really??? I actually worked on the horizontal drilling of utility lines under center street for over a kilometer of the road and nevermind the line we installed the number of lines we CROSSED would boggle your mind. trust me centre street has WAY more utilities then the nose creek line.