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  #281  
Old Posted May 12, 2008, 5:44 PM
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SteelTown SteelTown is offline
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Well lets hope Morelli doesn't come to council to vote as he hasn't attended counil in a very long time.

If you have a health problem and you can't show up half the time of the year, perhaps you ought to step down. Just my opinion.
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  #282  
Old Posted May 12, 2008, 7:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raisethehammer View Post
you rock McGreal:


We blew it in '81 on light rail transit -- let's not do it again
Terry Cooke
(May 10, 2008)
"Losing a fully funded light rail transit system in the early 1980s was the biggest missed opportunity that I witnessed in my entire political career. Hamilton is still paying the price for such short-sightedness."

-- Former Hamilton-Wentworth Region chair Bill Sears

Sometimes in politics it's hard to recognize the stuff that actually matters in the long term. Elected officials can get so caught up in the grind of day-to-day decision making that they literally fail to see the forest for the trees. Therefore, a quick study of recent history might help Hamilton council appreciate the lasting impact of its pending decision on the future of rapid transit in Hamilton.

In 1978, the province offered to build a light rail transit (LRT) system in Hamilton (disclosure: my grandfather Frank Cooke chaired the technical steering committee for the project until his retirement). Premier Bill Davis was convinced Hamilton was the ideal location to build a demonstration project to showcase a made-in-Ontario transit technology.

Regional government had identified the need for a rapid transit system to move people efficiently from downtown to the fast-growing suburbs on the Mountain (and ultimately the airport) and to the bustling industries of the northeast waterfront.

The province had invested heavily in developing the system and building a test-track LRT near Kingston, which it hoped would spawn a worldwide market for their technology and create manufacturing jobs here in Ontario. But it was desperate to show that it could work in a real urban environment such as Hamilton so it could get on with selling it to the world.

So Hamilton had an opportunity to receive, at provincial expense, a state-of-the art transit system that could have transformed our city.

Instead, the proposal was met with political skepticism. Regional councillors figured that such unusual provincial benevolence was an indication the system was technically suspect and was being foisted on Hamilton.

The Hamilton concept design unfortunately included elevated sections of the line in downtown and the Durand neighbourhood, prompting the usual opposition to change by downtown merchants and local ratepayers.

But instead of finding ways to amend the concept to address legitimate concerns while keeping the project and funding alive, Hamilton's conflict-driven political culture conspired to kill it. In 1981, regional council voted by a margin of 18-8 to shut the project down, effectively snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Hamilton's loss became British Columbia's gain. The Ontario-made LRT was ultimately built in Vancouver as the SkyTrain.

Now, Queen's Park has once again expressed a serious interest in funding LRT in Hamilton. There are likely to be some political speed bumps on the road ahead. Chamber of Commerce types are sure to question its affordability, and some suburbanites will rebel at relinquishing two lanes of traffic for transit use.

But the world has changed dramatically in the past 25 years in its understanding of the importance of transit to our urban form and our economic vitality. Local political culture is showing signs of change too. This time around not only is Mayor Fred Eisenberger committed to LRT, but much of council seems onside. They also have articulate allies such as blogger Ryan McGreal (raisethehammer.org) building grassroots support.

Hamilton has a rare opportunity to go "back to the future" with light rail transit. And just like the plot in the motion picture of the same name, this time we can choose a different ending.
Some clarification is seriously in order.

First of all, the technology proposed was not LRT. It was an ICTS (Intermediate Capacity Transit System), such as the Scarborough RT.

(The below details on the proposed route are from an article in progress for my website)
The RT line would have begun at the corner of Upper James and Mohawk, with Mohawk station on the northeast corner elevated above Mohawk Plaza. The line would head north on Upper James along the centre of the roadway, and then swing onto the side of the roadway, gradually descending until passing underground near the intersection of Upper James and Monarch Rd, on the parking lot of Mountain Plaza.

Fennel Station would be located underground on the southeast corner of the intersection of Upper James and Fennell. North of Fennell station the RT would continue to descend until it emerged from the side of the Niagara Escarpment at the site of the old James St Incline, where the James St stairs are today. Now again on an elevated track, the line would have swung slightly east, to parallel James St south on the east side.

The elevated line would have jumped from James to Hughson Street, either by cutting across the St. Joseph’s Hospital, or by making a sharp turn from James onto Charlton, and then another sharp turn from Charlton onto Hughson. St. Joseph’s station would have been located either on the southeast corner of James St and Charlton, or above Hughson Street at Charlton. These two sets of options were presented as St. Joseph’s hospital had not decided whether or not to allow the RT to cut across the property.

At Hughson and Haymarket, right behind the TH&B station on Hunter St, the RT would have its maintenance and storage yard, oriented east-west above what are now the GO centre’s bus platforms. This is also the location where the downtown loop would begin. Turning west, the one-way line would turn from Hughson, pass over the TH&B tracks, and then curve between City hall and Whitehern. It would pass over the Canadian Football Hall of Fame as it reached MacNab Station.

MacNab station would be placed above the existing bus platforms at MacNab and Main, and would serve as the transfer point between the RT and the buses coming from the West end, as well as serving City Hall, Jackson Square, Copps Coliseum, and the Art Gallery of Hamilton.

From MacNab station, the line would make a sharp turn onto King, another sharp turn from King onto James, and a third sharp turn from James onto King William. The line would run along King William to John St, where King William station would be located, which would serve the old Hamilton intercity bus terminal at John and Rebecca streets, and the east side of the downtown core.

After King William station, the line would head up Catherine St to Hunter, where it would turn west, cross over the TH&B tracks, and head up Hughson heading for St Joseph’s station.

The creation of the RT would have altered the bus network on Hamilton Mountain dramatically, with most buses being routed towards a RT station, rather than the downtown core. Mohawk station would have had the largest bus station, with 7 routes redirected to the Mohawk station bus terminal. These would have included 27B UPPER JAMES, 32 GARTH, 33 SANATORIUM, 41 MOHAWK, and 45 LIMERIDGE, as well as a new STONECHURCH EAST route.

Fennel Station would see the 27A UPPER JAMES, 31 FENNELL, 34 UPPER PARADISE, and 35 COLLEGE being rerouted to the new station, as well as new QUEENSDALE, UPPER WENTWORTH, and UPPER WELLINGTON routes created.

St. Joseph station would have had no bus platforms, and MacNab station would have served all the routes that passed by Main & MacNab. King William station would see the 4 BAYFRONT rerouted via Wellington

In retrospect it was a good thing that this design was not followed. The cars used by the ICTS had wider turning radi that anticipated. This resulted in derailments on the Scarborough RT, which had to be taken offline for several months in 1988 in order to renovate Kennedy Station with wider curves. Can you image the outrage if the downtown loop would have been rebuilt a few years after opening because the curves were too tight?
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  #283  
Old Posted May 12, 2008, 8:01 PM
JT Jacobs JT Jacobs is offline
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Interesting. Still, even with the potential outrage, this would have been an excellent start to an expanded and superior system later (ie now). The only other two cities that implemented light rail then were Calgary and Edmonton (in 1981 and 1978, respectively, I believe).

Regardless of the putative inaccuracies of Cooke's article, his overall point is sound: that Hamilton, because of ignorance and inside politics, lost out on the basis for a sound, world-class transit system, and that now--right now--we are in a similar position to the Hamilton situation of 1978 and should therefore not squander the opportunity we have from the provincial government (again) to implement a light rail system (regardless of kind).
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  #284  
Old Posted May 13, 2008, 5:58 AM
mishap mishap is offline
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Here's an alternate idea for the Fennell portion of the A-Line LRT:

In a nutshell, don't use Fennell. The line would cross Fennell on W5th without turning. To link up with Upper James, southbound trains would go east on Monarch, while northbound trains would travel west on Wembley.

Why this routing?
- Fennell is too narrow for a dedicated right-of way without razing the south side of the street, and it's too important a stretch of the LRT line to run in mixed traffic on a major street. W5th has some room to spare, and the two side streets could each take a single track.
- This also adds the possibility of putting the transit terminal directly in front of Mohawk College. Not to say it should be there, but it's another option.
- Upper James has an opportunity to taper down in width before passing north of Fennell.
- A short-turn loop can be created between Downtown and Mohawk College/ Mountain Plaza via W5th, Monarch, Upper James and Wembley. Based on its location (and future access to transit), I really think the HPH site has the potential to be a major draw in the future. Why this location has never been mentioned as a potential stadium site, I don't know. But that's for another thread...
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  #285  
Old Posted May 13, 2008, 2:14 PM
raisethehammer raisethehammer is offline
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I understand the Limeridge Mall connector idea, but wouldn't Centre Mall/Ottawa St make more sense as a first phase connector?
I'll send that in with my comment sheet. There's a much greater ridership potential and business spinoff effect along Ottawa and Centre Mall area than Limeridge.
Limeridge should be a future extension.
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  #286  
Old Posted May 13, 2008, 3:16 PM
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If there were LRT to Limeridge Mall I could see office jobs being created in that area.

I think it would be better if they just had BRT from Limeridge Mall to A-Line and continue on to Meadowlands, make that C-Line, or Metrolinx called it T-Line.
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  #287  
Old Posted May 13, 2008, 11:23 PM
JoeyColeman JoeyColeman is offline
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I'd go a step further, I'd run from Limeridge to Mohawk College, then to Meadowlands and finally end up within the campus of McMaster University.
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  #288  
Old Posted May 13, 2008, 11:42 PM
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That's definitely something I like to see. I've been advocating for that.
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  #289  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 1:56 AM
DC83 DC83 is offline
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Hmmm, I totally think Limeridge should be added to the 'C-Line' as it would obviously follow the current 41 Mohawk route. It makes so much sense. If the City is planning of creating a 'C-Line' RT route, my not just implement Limeridge Terminal into that? I bet if the City begged enough, it would get funding from Metrolinx for a 3rd line ('C-Line').

Here's my dream transit system:



http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...904cd8a2a&z=12
^^ Click the link, click on on the Line to read info about it, click on the Station to read info on it & it's Name.
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  #290  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 2:17 AM
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Nice job. I like your plan.

Metrolinx released their white paper about 2 weeks ago and they proposed the "T-Line" which would go along Mohawk Road from Limeridge Mall to Meadowlands. So really the City doesn't have to do much begging as Metrolinx is already on board with the C-Line or T-Line, whatever that intend to name the route. I guess it's T-Line because it looks like a T upside down.
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  #291  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 2:33 AM
Hammer Town Hammer Town is offline
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The only thing I would maybe suggest would be to send your D line further along barton to maybe as far as Fruitland Rd only becuase of all the bussiness thats happening in that part of the city.
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  #292  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 4:54 PM
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^^ Ya, I agree. I think the Barton RT line should run to Fruitland (along Barton) up to Hwy8 up King Street and run through Stoney Creek Village then back down Centennial Pkwy to Eastgate Terminal.
I didn't think about it until after I made this map, and adjusting it anymore than I already had would have resulted in either a) me going insane or b) me going cross-eyed... or both haha

There are SO many options for routes in this city (ie: Stonechurch, Rymal, York-Plains, etc)... but if I added all the lines, you probably wouldn't have been able to see the actual map! hahaha
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  #293  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 9:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC83 View Post

There are SO many options for routes in this city (ie: Stonechurch, Rymal, York-Plains, etc)... but if I added all the lines, you probably wouldn't have been able to see the actual map! hahaha
The beauty of the grid system
Btw nice map. Hopefully al Lrt aswell.
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  #294  
Old Posted May 16, 2008, 1:50 PM
coalminecanary coalminecanary is offline
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Regarding the below quotes,

If anyone has direct contact with any of the "likely" or "unlikely" councillors, or if you know someone who does, Hamilton Light Rail is hoping to get their ears briefly before the upcoming public works meeting.

We just want to make sure that all of the councillors are on the same page before that meeting and especially before day of their vote in june. A few of the councillors understand the overall benefits of LRT, and see a value in requesting LRT funding from the province, but others just have not seen the potential.

So if you or someone you know can help get one of the HLR members a bit of time to speak with your councillor, please PM me (or ryan, or email via www.hamiltonlightrail.com) and let us know...

Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelTown View Post
So lets say there's a vote for approval for the Rapid Transit Office to officially endorse LRT for the B-Line which councilors do you think would support it?

For sure definitely.....
Bob Bratina
Brian McHattie
Sam Merulla
Mayor Fred

Likely support LRT for B-Line
Chad Collins
Bernie Morelli
Tom Jackson
Brad Clark

Unsure
Scott Duvall
Terry Whitehead
Maria Pearson
Russ Powers
Robert Pasuta

Likely against LRT
Margaret McCarthy
David L. Mitchell
Lloyd Ferguson

Need 8 votes to pass a majority.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianE View Post
Sorry to drag to this quote from about 10 pages ago.

I spoke to Councillor Morelli recently, I emailed asking him to support LRT and he actualy phoned me to discuss my email... I was quite surpised.

Anyways he seemed to be of the opinion that now was not the right time for LRT. I couldn't get any further clarification for what he meant by that so I won't speculate.

If anybody else in Ward three reads this, I would suggest sending an email to Mr. Morelli. I think he can be persuaded that this is the right time for LRT if enough of his constituents let him know that they support LRT.
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  #295  
Old Posted May 16, 2008, 2:01 PM
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Usually Terry Whitehead sets up a table at Westcliffe to speak with residence. I'll find the next day for that and you can talk to him directly what way.

Found this from Terry's website....

Ward 8 Neighbourhood Meetings:

Fessenden Neighbourhood Meeting
May 21st, 2008 at Sir Allan MacNab Secondary School

Gilbert, Rolston, and Yeoville Neighbourhood Meeting
May 27th, 2008 at Westmount Secondary School

Mohawk, Southam, Buchanan, and Bonnington Neighbourhood Meeting
June 5th, 2008 at Buchanan Park Public School

Westcliffe Neighbourhood Meeting
June 16th, 2008 at Chedoke Middle School

Mountainview Neighbourhood Meeting
June 19th, 2008 at Chedoke Twin Pad Arena

St. Elizabeth Village Neighbourhood Meeting
June 25th, 2008 at St. Elizabeth Village
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  #296  
Old Posted May 16, 2008, 2:26 PM
DC83 DC83 is offline
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Hmm well my councillor lives literally down the street from me and I'm pretty sure I know his stance on LRT (it's Bratina) hahaha

Thanks, Chris_K... it took me one long (bored) night to do it haha

I think we need to blitz Morelli with emails on how beneficial this technologie would be to his ward!
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  #297  
Old Posted May 16, 2008, 2:48 PM
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Yes, Morelli needs to be flooded with pro-LRT comments. Can't have an inner city councillor voting aganist LRT for the B-Line, that would be a bad sign.
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  #298  
Old Posted May 16, 2008, 2:50 PM
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Is a light rail transit system in Hamilton's future?

By Kevin Werner
News
May 16, 2008

An overwhelming number of Hamiltonians want the city to start constructing a light rail transit system as soon as possible, despite its multi-million price tag, two public meetings revealed.

Jill Stephen, manager of strategic planning for the city's public works department, acknowledged the majority of the estimated 150 people who attended two recently held public meetings favoured a light rail transit (LRT) system over a bus rapid transit system (BRT).

Ms. Stephen said a report being prepared for councillors next month will indicate the public's preferred choice. But she was reluctant to say if her department will recommend the city move towards a light rail transit system.

"We are still drafting the report," she said. "But it definitely appears to be light rail."

Based on the comment forms from people who attended the meetings at the Sackville Hill Seniors Centre and the Hamilton-Wentworth District School Board building, 92 per cent who responded supported rapid transit, and 68 per cent favoured LRT. About seven per cent of the people leaned towards BRT.

As part of its Rapid Transit Feasibility Study, transit officials are proposing to establish two rapid transit routes - an A-line along James and Upper James streets from the Hamilton Airport to the waterfront, and a B-line from University Plaza in Dundas to Eastgate Square.

Ms. Stephen said further research needs to be conducted on a LRT system, most critically on how much it will cost, and the economic development it will create for the city.

Preliminary costs of both systems reveal the LRT system is the most expensive with the capital cost projected at $15 million per km for a one-way street and $25 million per km for two-way streets.

The BRT system's capital cost is set at $6.5 million per km for one-way streets and $9 million for two-way streets.

A significant concern for residents about building a LRT system is to cross the Niagara Escarpment, two 6.5 m diameter tunnels would have to be constructed in the escarpment from St. Joseph's Hospital to Mohawk College. Other obstacles include the electricity for an LRT is limited for the system, and the bridges over James and King streets are too low.

In addition, LRT, which is a street-level rail system, uses overhead electricity for energy. Cities that are using the system include Edmonton, Alberta and San Jose, California.

Ms. Stephen said the plan is to settle on what rapid transit system Hamilton will be adopting and finalize its budget to accommodate Metrolinx's budget by this fall.

"We want to get into the first cut of the Metrolinx budget for 2009," she said.


Metrolinx has control over a $17.5 billion transportation fund to dole out to municipalities who have establish rapid transit projects.

Meanwhile, one of the questions residents raised during the public meetings was the economic development impacts a LRT system will have on the city. Ms. Stephen acknowledged little information is available for Hamilton.

But there is a direct correlation between improved economic development and LRT from Portland, Oregon, which has in place a LRT system.

"Light rail has been a catalyst for the economy and economic revitalization," she said. "There are also examples in other states."

The deadline for further comments that will be included in the report that will be sent to the public works committee next month is May 20.

If interested in sending a comment, the website is www.hamilton.ca/rapid-transit; email at [email protected], or phone 905-546-2424, ext.1473.
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  #299  
Old Posted May 16, 2008, 6:36 PM
raisethehammer raisethehammer is offline
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woohoo!! 2009 budget would be awesome. This IS Hamilton's moment...I hope we don't blow it!
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  #300  
Old Posted May 16, 2008, 11:56 PM
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I would suspect the money from 2009 would be to finance a full detailed report towards LRT for A and B-Line. Those kinds of report can be pricey. Couple of open houses and probably some changes in 2009 and best hope is construction for LRT on the B-Line in late 2010 or 2011. Will probably take 2 to 3 years to complete from Dundas to Eastgate. In total 5 years like Jill Stephen suggested in Sackville.

The first part will probably start from the new yard by University Plaza to the downtown MacNab area.
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