Third Harbour Crossing

[Canadian_Bacon]

^ Well I'm not all about growth in the city core. I like to see other areas grow as well. Development and growth are all good in my opinion whether it's in the Halifax core, or in the suburbs etc.

[fenwick16]

Although I would like to see the densification of the peninsula, some people will always want single family housing. Most construction on the peninsula is multi-dwelling apartment and condo buildings. I feel that single detached homes should be as close to the urban core as possible.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by alps

Why would a boom in this area be desirable at this time? I find all this bridge talk strange for a forum normally into intensification of the city core.

Growth of a city is about providing people choice - choice to live in the city, in the suburbs or in a rural area.

For me; growing up in Halifax, I lived in Fairview. When I got my own place, I lived on Lady Hammond Road and downtown and I would live downtown again if I moved back, or even in a renovated house in Fairview.

I think what people are saying in this particular thread is that it's not just about talking about smart growth or densification of the inner city - it's also about moving people in a smart way. These connections will create more places to live in the suburbs, no doubt in that - but it may not be another sprawling community of single detached houses.

The regional plan will be coming up for renewal in 2021 (as it has to be in effect by 2026 to replace the current) and I really hope they reconsider 25% of the growth in the core and bump it up - but that will require more connections in and out.

[halifaxboyns]

One last thing I'd add - since the boomers are retiring - we may see the substantial reduction in home construction as singles - it will soon start to be more multi - since aging populations don't want the burden of mowing lawns, raking leaves and watering gardens!

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by Dmajackson

Harbour Drive plan here; http://halifax.ca/archives/documents/SS-10-15719ProposedHarbourDrive.pdf

Ha, they have the planned crossing going right atop Georges Island.. probably planning to use George's as nothing more than a Bridge Pier. That wouldn't fly today.

Its interesting to note that this plan is ante-Mackay and there isn't even a notation of a possible "future traffic facility" where the Mackay now stands. The Harbour Drive plan has a much different complexion without the Mackay.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by terrynorthend

Ha, they have the planned crossing going right atop Georges Island.. probably planning to use George's as nothing more than a Bridge Pier. That wouldn't fly today.

Its interesting to note that this plan is ante-Mackay and there isn't even a notation of a possible "future traffic facility" where the Mackay now stands. The Harbour Drive plan has a much different complexion without the Mackay.

Yes, good point - the MacKay wasn't built at this time. The drawing is dated 1963, so this might have been before the MacKay was being planned.

It really bothers me that the planned path of the NW Arm Drive which would form such a vital link to the South End and downtown seems to have been abandoned - homes are now being built in its path. Not having a southern harbour bridge does not make this route unfeasible (but someone would have to stick their necks out to get it built).

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Growth of a city is about providing people choice - choice to live in the city, in the suburbs or in a rural area.

For me; growing up in Halifax, I lived in Fairview. When I got my own place, I lived on Lady Hammond Road and downtown and I would live downtown again if I moved back, or even in a renovated house in Fairview.

I think what people are saying in this particular thread is that it's not just about talking about smart growth or densification of the inner city - it's also about moving people in a smart way. These connections will create more places to live in the suburbs, no doubt in that - but it may not be another sprawling community of single detached houses.

The regional plan will be coming up for renewal in 2021 (as it has to be in effect by 2026 to replace the current) and I really hope they reconsider 25% of the growth in the core and bump it up - but that will require more connections in and out.

With all the growth that is taking place in the HRM, I wonder if 2021 will be soon enough. It seems that since the start of amalgamation in 1996 there has been strong growth in the HRM - this might be coincidence or maybe amalgamation has real benefits.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Dmajackson

Harbour Drive plan here; http://halifax.ca/archives/documents/SS-10-15719ProposedHarbourDrive.pdf

Damn shame none of those changes were done 40 years ago.

[fenwick16]

It is remarkable that so many big projects were completed and planned between 1958 - 1970 - two harbour bridges, Bi-Centennial Highway, and the southern harbour bridge and Harbour Drive were planned (although it was stopped and replaced with the MacKay Bridge). It is hard to imagine this many large projects taking place again in the HRM area.

[Canadian_Bacon]

^ That is true. All those large projects completed within a pretty short time period 1958 - 1970.

I wonder what changed their mind's from going with the original plan, to building the Mackay bridge. Unless the Harbour Drive, southern bridge were just one of many proposals that were made, and the Mackay was decided to be the best option.

[alps]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Growth of a city is about providing people choice - choice to live in the city, in the suburbs or in a rural area.

For me; growing up in Halifax, I lived in Fairview. When I got my own place, I lived on Lady Hammond Road and downtown and I would live downtown again if I moved back, or even in a renovated house in Fairview.

I think what people are saying in this particular thread is that it's not just about talking about smart growth or densification of the inner city - it's also about moving people in a smart way. These connections will create more places to live in the suburbs, no doubt in that - but it may not be another sprawling community of single detached houses.

The regional plan will be coming up for renewal in 2021 (as it has to be in effect by 2026 to replace the current) and I really hope they reconsider 25% of the growth in the core and bump it up - but that will require more connections in and out.

But there's so much accessible suburban land available right now with little alteration to infrastructure. The area between routes 3 and 103, for example. I don't see the need for an Arm bridge now or anytime remotely soon.

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

These connections will create more places to live in the suburbs, no doubt in that - but it may not be another sprawling community of single detached houses.

It's Halifax we're talking about -- it definitely would be.

I'm not suggesting we completely stifle suburban development, but at a time when the peninsular population is at a low and our bridges are nearing capacity, our big moves shouldn't be focused on making it easier to develop off-peninsula (while simultaneously making it less desirable to move there due to increased commuter traffic going through).

I would much rather see bridge money put into much-needed public transit improvements and the focus turned towards densification. There is no need for an arm bridge.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by alps

I would much rather see bridge money put into much-needed public transit improvements and the focus turned towards densification. There is no need for an arm bridge.

Although I agree with your concept of providing better public transit, there are advantages to opening up a part of Halifax that does not have room to grow. Dalhousie and SMU might desire additional real estate. Even if an Arm crossing (it could be a tunnel) is not currently required, a route could be made available so that there is a possibility of building it in the future.

There are constant complaints about truck traffic having to pass through the built up areas of the city - so what other solution is there? There has been talk about an inland terminal but it never happens and there is a good reason. Having CN provide a train connection to an inland terminal means that there is no longer true competition for CN (their service is poor to Halifax as it is). CN could make such an inland terminal uncompetitive for truck traffic by increasing their rates to the inland terminal. Having a North West Arm crossing makes the port more competitive.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by alps

I would much rather see bridge money put into much-needed public transit improvements and the focus turned towards densification. There is no need for an arm bridge.

And where would those public transit options run? On our existing overcrowded, obsolete roads? Then they would be sitting in traffic like everyone else.

The denial by some of any need to upgrade our road network remains as baffling as the phobia over tall buildings in this town.

[alps]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

And where would those public transit options run? On our existing overcrowded, obsolete roads? Then they would be sitting in traffic like everyone else.

The denial by some of any need to upgrade our road network remains as baffling as the phobia over tall buildings in this town.

Plenty of ideas discussed in the Metro Transit and rail-based transit discussion threads. I like the idea of busways or light rail running along old rail corridors, and proper BRT.

I'm not adverse to any and all road improvement but talk of an Arm bridge in particular seems pointless/wasteful to me.

Originally Posted by fenwick16

There are constant complaints about truck traffic having to pass through the built up areas of the city - so what other solution is there? There has been talk about an inland terminal but it never happens and there is a good reason. Having CN provide a train connection to an inland terminal means that there is no longer true competition for CN (their service is poor to Halifax as it is). CN could make such an inland terminal uncompetitive for truck traffic by increasing their rates to the inland terminal. Having a North West Arm crossing makes the port more competitive.

Good point, I hadn't thought of that issue -- but the idea they floated where a highway would be built alongside the CN trackage sounds more cost effective, and you could allow BRT routes to run down there too.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

And where would those public transit options run? On our existing overcrowded, obsolete roads? Then they would be sitting in traffic like everyone else.

The denial by some of any need to upgrade our road network remains as baffling as the phobia over tall buildings in this town.

I think that upgrading the road network (at least when I've talked about transportation) is just assumed. I don't live in Halifax, so in my mind - you are absolutely right - transit only works when it can be more efficient than cars. So there needs to be system upgrades to give for efficient car movements, but also to give buses some priorities on major arteries.

Here in Calgary they have a lot of transit priority queues along major traffic arteries so buses (when queuing up for a light) get priority over cars, before they can go. That usually helps to a degree; but also there needs to be a more intelligent design to the road network. Perhaps more roads with reversing lanes might be a solution? I know on Memorial Drive they did that and it seems to have helped a lot because the lane against the direction of traffic is now down to 1 and there are 3 lanes flowing with traffic for peak periods.

As to making it easier to build on the peninsula - I'd like to think that there is a slow progression to more density in the city (note my emphasis on slow). As the city spreads out, costs will grow - that's a fact every city is facing and I think with the up coming population change; there should be a natural morphing of demand from houses to condos or apartments so people can try to age in place. We're starting to see the condo demand in Calgary come back, mainly due to boomers. So it won't be avoided in Halifax. If anything; I think Halifax may benefit from it because many people who left to build careers elsewhere (because the jobs weren't available) may come back to retire. I know I would...

I see HRM evolving and I don't think we can avoid a 3rd crossing of the harbour or a bridge on the arm or any of the major issues - but these may not always be the solutions. Fast ferries, improved road connectivity, improved transit mobility - these are all very important things to do before we resort to bridges - because they cost much less. If these things help (and they could significantly) - then great. But lets try them first, before we start building bridges or tunnels. But it doesn't hurt to think about how the bridges or tunnels would function, in the event these things don't help and a crossing is the only solution.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by alps

I'm not adverse to any and all road improvement but talk of an Arm bridge in particular seems pointless/wasteful to me.

I think you are right if you are thinking in terms of Halifax not growing beyond say 450,000 - 500,000 people. This was the prediction from 10 - 15 years ago. However, if Halifax sees 15 - 20 years of strong growth (it has already seen 10 years of strong population growth) then these predictions will be discarded and new predictions will come out (statistical models are based on regressive models after all - the new regressive model will predict higher growth if based on a period of higher growth). The question might be better stated as; if the HRM grows to a much larger city of 600,000 or more people then where should the growth be located. Personally, I think a North West Arm crossing will be far cheaper than another harbour crossing. In other words, focus growth closer to the peninsula instead of in Dartmouth. It is possible to consider focusing growth in Dartmouth but major employment locations such as the hospitals and universities will continue to be on the peninsula.

Good point, I hadn't thought of that issue -- but the idea they floated where a highway would be built alongside the CN trackage sounds more cost effective, and you could allow BRT routes to run down there too.

Although this was the idea a couple years ago, it was found that such a solution would require increasing the width of the railcut which would mean replacing the Young and Tower street bridges. When this was taken into account, the cost estimates ballooned (it was around $280 million from what I remember).

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Although this was the idea a couple years ago, it was found that such a solution would require increasing the width of the railcut which would mean replacing the Young and Tower street bridges. When this was taken into account, the cost estimates ballooned (it was around $280 million from what I remember).

That doesn't surprise me in the least - when you factor in the bridges and then the cost of blasting and making the rail cut wider (plus expropriations).

I'm still on the fence about a crossing - without attempting other transit solutions (and road improvements) first. If the high speed ferry is developed as proposed (from Purcell's Cove) - this could take a huge chunk of traffic off the roads during rush hour (especially if the park and ride component is developed with a parkade at the terminal versus just a standard lot).

But you are correct Fenwick; that the models will change if the growth HRM is seeing keeps up. I'd say that if the growth rate for the city starts passing 2.3%; then you will be expecting pretty fast paced expansion - since the city has been growing typically in the 1 to 1.5% range (usually around 6 to 7,000 people). If wiki is right (saying they hit 398,000 Decemeber 2009; I'd say it's 400,000 at least now); and growth begins passing 2%, then you are closing in on 10,000 people being added a year - that's a lot. Especially if it grows up to 15,000 a year. That's getting to be almost the same number of people moving in as Fort McMurray was getting per year and that town went from 64,000 to 100,000 in less than 6 years. If the growth exceeds 10,000 people a year; that's less than 10 years to hit half a mil. I guess time will tell..

[alps]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

IPersonally, I think a North West Arm crossing will be far cheaper than another harbour crossing. In other words, focus growth closer to the peninsula instead of in Dartmouth. It is possible to consider focusing growth in Dartmouth but major employment locations such as the hospitals and universities will continue to be on the peninsula.

I wouldn't mind that in the eventual future as long as it doesn't look like the other Spryfield subdivisions of the past few years. As for the rail cut, I wish they'd immediately construct one paved laneway for trucks and a BRT route that switched directions at noon and midnight like the bridge. It wouldn't require any widening and couldn't be that expensive. Wouldn't solve the trucks-in-the-city issue but it'd cut the traffic in ~half.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by alps

I wouldn't mind that in the eventual future as long as it doesn't look like the other Spryfield subdivisions of the past few years.

Being that close to the South End and Point Pleasant Park, I would think that it would become a swanky part of town. Spryfield has developed the way it has because it is isolated from the expensive parts of the peninsula. Developers will have to deal with hills and rock but that won't be so much different than Bedford.

[HRM]

The most recent Statistics Canada census (2006) puts the population of Halifax at 369,455.

Per Access Nova Scotia's web site an average day in 2007 saw 23 births and 22 deaths for a net increase of 365 for the entire year.

Immigration to Nova Scotia is surely eclipsed by emmigration out of the province by those seeking work (especially when one considers that non - Nova Scotia university students are included in the census number above).

In short the current full-time population of Halifax is no where close to 400K.