ATLANTA TRANSIT (Marta, Beltline, Peachtree Streetcar, LovJoy Commuter, etc...)

[CityFan]

I am in favor of infill station concept, but i don't think that adding 4 more stations will increase rideship drastically.

[MidtownMile]

Originally Posted by jason21atl

I haven't been closely monitoring this thread so I don't know if this point has already been made. I sold my car several weeks ago and have been using MARTA as my sole method of transportation. I take it to work, shopping, entertainment, etc. I also walk ALOT. I probably do more walking in a day than a lot of people probably do in a week.....walk to the MARTA station, walk to the grocery store, walk to restaurants, walk to nightlife, etc. So far, it has worked out perfectly for me and I only wish I would have moved intown and sold my car sooner.

Anyway, my point is that people in Atlanta (even many "intowners") view MARTA as "second-class transportation" and not "alternative transportation." When I tell people I decided to sell my car and use MARTA, they automatically assume I am on tough financial times, I lost my driver's license, or am just plain crazy. They just can't comprehend the fact that I am very financially stable, am physically able to drive, and choose not to do so. It's gotten to the point that I hate talking with people about because I am getting so tired of having to explain my reasoning and assure them that I'm not down on my luck.

Unfortunately in the US and especially in the south, automobiles are seen as status symbols and signs of how wealthy one is. MARTA and other public transit in Atlanta is seen as transportation for people who can't afford a car. Mass transit isn't going to boom in a city like Atlanta as long as people view it as "second class."

I think that idea is more prevalent than just the South. It is second class because, unfortunately, the majority of riders ARE in those categories you listed. The reason cities like NY, Chicago, etc. do well with mass transit is because it provides a greater benefit. At this point in Atlanta, having the car and living out is still the norm. That is clearly changing, but it still has a ways. I think once people do most of their living and working intown, and they have to get the car out, deal with traffic, etc. to go places or just hop on MARTA, the popularity will increase. Frustration and alternative is the only way to develop working systems like this. Otherwise, NY would have no traffic which is clearly not the case.

[RobMidtowner]

Driving a car is to riding transit as "On Demand" is to standard cable.

[atlantaguy]

Well, this is pretty depressing - but I can't say I blame Clayton County at all. Will the State and Sonny-Bubba ever step up to the plate, or should we just all roll over while they complete their paving-over of North Georgia?

Commissioners veer rail plan off path
Clayton rescinds '05 resolution, wants better deal from state

By PAUL DONSKY, ERIC STIRGUS
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 01/04/07

The embattled Lovejoy commuter rail line has been dealt another blow.

The Clayton County Commission rescinded a 2005 resolution in which the county pledged to cover the transit line's operating deficit — estimated at $4 million a year — for 50 years.

The commissioners insist they support the commuter rail line but now say they want a better deal from the state. The 2005 resolution puts the county on the hook for the entire shortfall, no matter how large it is.

"We can't put the taxpayers of this county at undue harm," said commissioner Wole Ralph, a longtime critic of the proposed funding agreement.

The decision, made Tuesday, throws another layer of uncertainty on the long-planned Lovejoy line, a 26-mile route between downtown Atlanta and south Clayton County that would be the state's first commuter rail line.

The state has $109 million in hand to build the line, but no money to pay long-term operating and maintenance costs, estimated at $7 million a year. Passenger fares are expected to cover up to 40 percent of those costs.

It's not clear what Clayton's action means for the project. Officials with the state Department of Transportation, which is building the transit line, declined to comment until they studied the resolution, according to a DOT spokesman.

Several Clayton board members have expressed reservations about the 2005 resolution, saying it is far too big an expense for the cash-strapped county.

Last fall, two new members were elected to the board, tipping the balance of power to those questioning the proposed deal.

County Commission Chairman Eldrin Bell has been one of the most vocal supporters of the commuter rail line, saying it could present a huge economic boon to the area. Bell abstained from Tuesday's vote, worrying that the action might erode support for the project and encourage federal and state leaders to spend the money elsewhere.

Before any work can begin on the Lovejoy line, the state must reach an agreement with freight rail company Norfolk Southern, which owns the tracks the commuter trains would use. The two sides are close to inking a deal, but Norfolk Southern is waiting on a ruling from federal tax officials to determine the tax implications of the transaction.

State planners also are waiting on a contract to be signed with Clayton County to cover any budget shortfall. The agreement has been on hold until a deal is reached with Norfolk Southern.

The project has faced numerous other challenges that have kept the transit line on the drawing board.

For instance, state lawmakers last year passed a law requiring legislative approval for commuter rail expenditures, a potential death blow to the Lovejoy line given the Legislature's reluctance to fund big-budget transit projects. The crisis eased when the legislator responsible for the measure said he meant for the language to affect future projects, not the Lovejoy line.

The rail line has been controversial, with some political leaders saying the project will not make a dent in the region's traffic problems and that the money could be better spent on road improvements.

[RobMidtowner]

I wonder if they considered a 1% sales tax like Atlanta/Fulton and Dekalb has for MARTA? That might be the only way to get it accomplished.

[MarketsWork]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

Well, this is pretty depressing - but I can't say I blame Clayton County at all. Will the State and Sonny-Bubba ever step up to the plate, or should we just all roll over while they complete their paving-over of North Georgia?

Although I'm a proponent of commuter rail, this news doesn't depress me at all since I don't believe the Lovejoy line is economically viable. If the first line is a bust, we may not see the next one built in our lifetimes. I would rather spend the financial and political capital on a line with a higher probability of success. I am no expert on the matter, but I would think Atlanta-Athens is the best bet.

[atlantaguy]

Oh, I couldn't agree more MarketsWork. The problem is that the funding for the Lovejoy line is already in place and earmarked specifically for that project alone. If there would be some possibility to transfer those funds to the Brain Train - I would be all for it. I don't think thats possible though......

[MarketsWork]

I understand, and hope that the money can be reallocated to the Brain Train. If the money cannot be transferred, then at least the political capital should be. With the apparent demise of the Lovejoy line, I have the feeling that we have averted a disaster of unrealistic expectations.

[CityFan]

Originally Posted by MarketsWork

I understand, and hope that the money can be reallocated to the Brain Train. If the money cannot be transferred, then at least the political capital should be. With the apparent demise of the Lovejoy line, I have the feeling that we have averted a disaster of unrealistic expectations.

I totally agree with you. You can't run a rail line subsidized by taxpayers who don't use it. If it's not financially viable, in this case it is, the project has no chance to survive. Funds should be allocated to some other projects.

[cmoga]

Originally Posted by BtiVaHiAtl

Interesting article on someone from the 'burbs and his switch to a MARTA commute.

http://www.cfpt.org/blog.php?action=viewpost&id=105

I found this article interesting because I live within 5 miles of the Clifton Corridor and commute there everyday on the MARTA bus. My commute is about 35 minutes, only about 20 of which are actually spent riding the bus, and I have also had a very positive experience with my daily commute.

Thanks for the plug, I wrote that article! Unfortunately it depends on where within a 5 mile circle you live. The problem in Atlanta is that people may not know that they have a transit alternative therefore never take advantage of it. There are plenty of folks that have moved here from areas that have mass transit and like taking it. They've gotten used to driving there cars and never thought to look into a MARTA option because of the stigma that "MARTA doesn't go anywhere".

It would be cool if others who ride MARTA would write similar commute descriptions. People who don't understand or are intimidated by maps and timetables can read a narrative that sell the idea to them. I believe the only way to change the transit adverse mind set in Atlanta is though grassroots ideas like this. Simply complaining about politicians and policies isn't going change things.

[cmoga]

Originally Posted by RobMidtowner

I wonder if they considered a 1% sales tax like Atlanta/Fulton and Dekalb has for MARTA? That might be the only way to get it accomplished.

Then they would expect a complete transit system like MARTA, not a just a commuter line. See what happens when C-Tran money runs out (I think it already has). Maybe that can get a DMU-based (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_multiple_unit) rail system. It'd be cheaper than running a MARTA guideway and the right of way is already there. It can be electrified later.

[MrIcon85]

I don't understand why Atlanta doesn't have tolls? I know they have a toll on G.A 400,, but they should have one on 75,85,20,,, I think this would cover some of the cost couldn't it?????

[joey]

Originally Posted by MrIcon85

I don't understand why Atlanta doesn't have tolls? I know they have a toll on G.A 400,, but they should have one on 75,85,20,,, I think this would cover some of the cost couldn't it?????

I agree in principle -- I think there should be tolls just inside the Perimeter on every expressway, as sort of a commuter tax.

Legally this isn't possible. A federal law prohibits tolls on Interstate-designated routes that used any federal Interstate funds unless the tolls preceded the Interstate system (as part of an old freeway).

Thus:

• An Interstate can have tolls if it used no federal funds
• A freeway that used federal Interstate funds can have tolls if it is not designated an Interstate
• A tollroad that existed pre-1960s that was incorporated into the Interstate system can have tolls (e.g., the northeastern turnpikes)
• BUT, an Interstate-designated route that used any federal Interstate funds, and which is not older than the 1960s can NOT have tolls.

There are those, however, who would like to see this law eliminated. I hope it happens, but I have no estimation on their success.

See 23 USC 129(a)(1)(A)

[RobMidtowner]

Originally Posted by MrIcon85

I don't understand why Atlanta doesn't have tolls? I know they have a toll on G.A 400,, but they should have one on 75,85,20,,, I think this would cover some of the cost couldn't it?????

Well this, and other tax issues, is going to be the topic of discussion in the upcoming leglislative session. Since there's a huge projected shortfall in transportation funding in the next 5 years, they will be looking at ways to bridge this gap. It'll be interesting to see what happens because there is also talk about eliminating the state income tax like some other states.

[atlantaguy]

I agree, Rob. This is going to be a very interesting session. I think almost everyone is a lame duck this go-round, so maybe a few off them will grow some balls on the important issues.

[MarketsWork]

Originally Posted by MrIcon85

I don't understand why Atlanta doesn't have tolls? I know they have a toll on G.A 400,, but they should have one on 75,85,20,,, I think this would cover some of the cost couldn't it?????

There would be a slight problem gaining the consent of the governed for such a new tax. Tolls are usually authorized to fund the construction costs of new roadways, such as GA 400 (which I believe is closed to being paid off), and also for ongoing upkeep of such high-maintenance facilities as major tunnels and bridges (for which regular fuel tax revenues are insufficient). Slapping a toll on existing Atlanta freeways would be a very tough sell to an electorate which uses them and already pays for their upkeep.

[MarketsWork]

Originally Posted by joey

Legally this isn't possible. A federal law prohibits tolls on Interstate-designated routes that used any federal Interstate funds unless the tolls preceded the Interstate system (as part of an old freeway).

Thus:

• An Interstate can have tolls if it used no federal funds
• A freeway that used federal Interstate funds can have tolls if it is not designated an Interstate
• A tollroad that existed pre-1960s that was incorporated into the Interstate system can have tolls (e.g., the northeastern turnpikes)
• BUT, an Interstate-designated route that used any federal Interstate funds, and which is not older than the 1960s can NOT have tolls.

Thanks, Joey -- that probably settles the issue, because I seriously doubt that this will change. Even if Congress changed the applicable USC statutues, I can't imagine Georgia voters consenting to the additional expense and inconvenience of tolls on roads that already exist. I believe we will see a move for a higher fuel tax rate instead.

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by MarketsWork

Thanks, Joey -- that probably settles the issue, because I seriously doubt that this will change. Even if Congress changed the applicable USC statutues, I can't imagine Georgia voters consenting to the additional expense and inconvenience of tolls on roads that already exist.

I was at a meeting last year when the GDOT board specifically affirmed its policy not to toll any existing lanes. That doesn't mean they won't toll new lanes, but I think they recognize that people would go berserk if they tried to add tolls to existing roadways.

Most of the pending and proposed PPI projects depend on tolls, of course. We'll undoubtedly see much better technology than the traditional toll both system, however, since the newer systems will calculate tolls based on distance, peak load hours, and possibly other factors.

[RobMidtowner]

Yeah the new toll road users will be required to have transponders and be charged a variable rate per mile depending on traffic conditions. I'm not sure of all the specifics but I believe payment will be upfront similar to GA 400 smart cards. Unfortunately though, the first of these PPI's (I-75/I-575 Toll Lanes) is at least 10 years from being completely constructed.

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by RobMidtowner

Unfortunately though, the first of these PPI's (I-75/I-575 Toll Lanes) is at least 10 years from being completely constructed.

They might move a little faster. The motivation to get operational is somewhat different for Wall Street financiers and private contractors who are relying on toll income than it is for state DOT's.