Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by esquire

Now that it's (almost?) done, it's safe to say that Quebec's rink is easily the prettiest in all of Canada.

The interior - I agree... looks the nicest of all of them.

The exterior - MTS Centre wins that easily. I'd even say the ACC looks nicer.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Berklon

The interior - I agree... looks the nicest of all of them.

The exterior - MTS Centre wins that easily. I'd even say the ACC looks nicer.

Yeah, fair enough... MTSC fits into its surroundings extremely well, and the Portage Avenue façade is really well done. It is a great arena from that standpoint.

But that said, even though it's a bit more of the old-school approach to plunking an arena in a field, Centre Videotron still looks spectacular.

[artvandelay]

Cross posting this from the thread in the Calgary section:

After having a few days to digest the CalgaryNEXT proposal, here are my thoughts:

The Concept: B+

I like the idea of combining the Flames arena and Stampeders stadium. There are synergies to be achieved by combining things like back of house operations, mechanical systems, restaurants, training facilities, retail, and other fan amenities. Co-locating these facilities makes sense from an economic perspective, and if we want to host a major event in the future it will be great to have a sports & entertainment district. Also, the proposed location can't be beat.

When I first heard that a field-house was going to be combined with the stadium, I thought it was a bad idea that would result in a sub par stadium experience. But the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. Calgary is in desperate need of a new large stadium. There is absolutely no economic case to build a football stadium in Canada and there is no way that a CFL stadium will be constructed with private sector dollars. Combining a fieldhouse with this complex checks off a major want on the City's recreation wishlist and combining amateur and professional sports makes sense. Also, one of the major problems with locating a stadium in an urban areas is that the facility remains a monolithic dead zone for 355 days a year. The fieldhouse (along with the community hockey rink) will ensure that the centrepiece of this new West Village neighbourhood is active at all times, which should benefit retail amenities in the area.

The challenge with the fieldhouse/stadium is going to be ensuring that this stadium doesn't feel like an oversized Jack Simpson Gymnasium during Stampeders game day, while maintaining full utility of a fieldhouse. A second rate facility is not acceptable for Calgary when Winnipeg, Regina, and Vancouver have new (or renovated) state of the art facilities. The only additional thing I'd like to see is a retractable roof. It's not a must have, but I'd hate to lose football outdoors on a sunny afternoon.

The District Plan: C-

As many others have mentioned, this is where CalgaryNEXT really falls short. I realize that this is a very early concept and they likely didn't want to open the can of worms of realigning Bow Trail, but it doesn't make sense development wise to have 1,000' feet of riverfront occupied by this complex and a roadway. Additionally, their proposed layout severs the western portion of the West Village (residential) from supporting amenities in the commercial area at the east. It just doesn't work very well. Luckily, there are a number of ways to remedy this:

1) Keep the stadium complex in its proposed location but move EB Bow Trail adjacent to the CP tracks and shift everything southward. WB Bow remains adjacent to the north side of the complex but as a treed, signalized boulevard. This would allow for development parcels riverside, which would provide a much better link between the east and west portions of the district.

2) Same as 1, but WB Bow Trail would be buried below the complex during construction and a calm access road / pedestrian street would take its place, allowing for larger development parcels. This would be the best option, but costs become a huge concern.

3) Stadium/arena moved to the western portion of the site adjacent to the Pumphouse theatre. This is the most heavily contaminated area, so there may be some cost savings by locating the complex there rather than residential. The West Village under this scenario would become a more coherent district. The obvious drawback is a longer walk to transit and poor access from EB Bow.

Regardless, the plan needs a lot of work in this area.

Financing Plan: B

I know that plenty of people are whinging about this (billionaire owners and millionaire players!, rabble rabble, Spendshi etc.) and there is going to be a huge fight regardless of how reasonable the proposal is, but I was pleasantly surprised to see the Flames putting up as much coin as they are for this.

By putting up $450 million ($200M cash, $250M in ticket levy) the Flames are essentially taking care of the arena portion of the project with entirely private money. This a better deal than what Edmonton ended up with and more in line with the way that Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver financed their buildings.

As I stated above, there is no economic case for privately financed football stadium. We are in need of a new one and the only way this will be achieved is with a public contribution. Including a fieldhouse and community rink makes this far more palatable for public investment.

The CRL should be the main point of contention with this plan. A CRL is would likely be used to finance redevelopment of the West Village in any case. Can redevelopment of the area and construction of the complex be completed with a $240 million CRL? And will subsequent private development in the West Village be valuable enough to support payback of the initial loan? This depends on how well executed the development is.

Execution: C

The execution of the presentation thus far has left much to be desired. I realize that this is very conceptual in nature, but perhaps the plan shouldn't have been brought to the public at this stage? The renderings were weak, the district plan doesn't make sense, and the PowerPoint looks like it was thrown together in an afternoon. They've created many questions by not presenting a polished product.

Conversely, if they had developed a comprehensive plan and presented it, they risk public criticism for making backroom deals and not doing proper public engagement. It's really a lose-lose scenario.

I think it was a mistake not to breakdown the funding into different sources for the arena, and stadium/fieldhouse. Also, by calling it a ticket "tax" rather then a surcharge, they've confused people into thinking that this is a public contribution.

I'd hope that they bring in some private sector partners or consultants with experience in development. This project is very important for the city and will require some skill to get it off the ground.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yeah, fair enough... MTSC fits into its surroundings extremely well, and the Portage Avenue façade is really well done. It is a great arena from that standpoint.

But that said, even though it's a bit more of the old-school approach to plunking an arena in a field, Centre Videotron still looks spectacular.

The thing I love about MTSC is it will still look relevent in 50 years. It's such a great exterior design. The ACC also has this quality

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

The thing I love about MTSC is it will still look relevent in 50 years. It's such a great exterior design. The ACC also has this quality

I'd be shocked if the MTS Centre was still standing in 50 years. (I might still be alive to find out...)

With the arena arms race going on in the NHL (Rogers and Videotron are upping the bar) you have to wonder how long MTSC will last before TNSE starts beating the drum for a new rink. And being the kind of smaller city that gets pushed around easily by pro sports owners, I think it's virtually certain that in less than 10 years, we'll be hearing about the need for a new building in Winnipeg. Whether or not it happens is a different story.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by artvandelay

After having a few days to digest the CalgaryNEXT proposal, here are my thoughts:

The challenge with the fieldhouse/stadium is going to be ensuring that this stadium doesn't feel like an oversized Jack Simpson Gymnasium during Stampeders game day, while maintaining full utility of a fieldhouse.

Execution: C

The execution of the presentation thus far has left much to be desired. I realize that this is very conceptual in nature, but perhaps the plan shouldn't have been brought to the public at this stage? The renderings were weak, the district plan doesn't make sense, and the PowerPoint looks like it was thrown together in an afternoon. They've created many questions by not presenting a polished product.

I agree with much of the above post. Also giving this a little thought and trying to put my finger on my problem with the concept I came to my eureka moment. IT'S A FIELDHOUSE! Duh! It finally hit me that in no way does this seem like a stadium, soccer or football. It's enclosed with pull out seating and a track, in other words a fieldhouse.

I believe the idea is good. I read somewhere by combining facilities they could save 200 to 300 million, I'm all for that.

The exterior design, I have no issue with and could be quite nice. The thought of combining a fieldhouse and stadium, I have no issue with, it is just what seems like a 1980's execution of the idea. Combining the fieldhouse with the stadium because of Calgary's need for a fieldhouse is a good idea along with getting money to cover that part of the complex seems fair to me.

Some sort of partial retractable roof or louvers to get some air circulating wouldn't be remiss and could make up for the totally covered roof issue.

The larger stands on one side and small tier on the opposite just doesn't sit well with me.

Normally I am the biggest booster of any new project, I saw THF for what it was and was pleasantly surprised that it turned out even better than I originally expected but I just don't like the interior ideas for this stadium. Maybe if the plans were more padded out in some more specific drawings and explanations of the interior switching from stadium to fieldhouse might help, but I have my doubts it would be much better than we've seen so far.

Perhaps like how the concept drawing for the new Mosaic morphed into something great we will see a rethink of this interior concept.

[esquire]

^ I think the concept is fundamentally flawed, at least in relation to the fieldhouse-as-pro-football-venue.

If Regina and Winnipeg can build legitimate pro football stadiums then so can Calgary. Nothing would be worse than spending hundreds of millions on a glorified hangar/fieldhouse that could suck so badly as a football venue it will threaten the continued existence of the franchise. If the Stamps fold, then you're stuck with a $400 million (or whatever the final number is) fieldhouse whose amateur function could probably be accomplished by a building at 1/10 of that cost.

Like I said before, I'm sure the arena will be fine because the NHL won't put up with mediocrity on that front. But that stadium is just amateur hour, even if it's a dome. I'd rather see a stripped down, barebones THF-type stadium get built rather than what is being proposed... at least it won't kill the franchise with the atmosphere-destroying community centre vibe.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I think the concept is fundamentally flawed, at least in relation to the fieldhouse-as-pro-football-venue.

If Regina and Winnipeg can build legitimate pro football stadiums then so can Calgary. Nothing would be worse than spending hundreds of millions on a glorified hangar/fieldhouse that could suck so badly as a football venue it will threaten the continued existence of the franchise. If the Stamps fold, then you're stuck with a $400 million (or whatever the final number is) fieldhouse whose amateur function could probably be accomplished by a building at 1/10 of that cost.

Like I said before, I'm sure the arena will be fine because the NHL won't put up with mediocrity on that front. But that stadium is just amateur hour, even if it's a dome. I'd rather see a stripped down, barebones THF-type stadium get built rather than what is being proposed... at least it won't kill the franchise with the atmosphere-destroying community centre vibe.

Agreed. Although there might be a savings in construction costs, the long term financial viability of the project can be put into jeopardy, if the project is of a poor design. The concept of multi-use stadiums was largely an abject failure and was rightfully put out of its misery a couple of decades ago now. Resurrecting the idea now has the potential to be a disaster

[king10]

agreed^

[Beelzebub]

Originally Posted by esquire

Renovating an old facility is just flushing money down the toilet. In the late 70s, Winnipeg enlarged and sort-of renovated the 1950s vintage arena and stadium, but they still always felt like old, worn-out facilities.

The only thing along those lines that might potentially work is the Euro-style gradual rebuild where you, say, demolish the west stands and rebuild them, and then 5 years later rebuild the east stands. But realistically a completely new stadium is the way to go.

Oh Lawd Jezus gimme strength ...

[Boris2k7]

I'd rather the City pay for separate fieldhouse in Foothills Athletic Park, and have CSE build a proper stadium. A CRL could pay for the site remediation. That's where public financing should end.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by king10

Now this is a model Calgary should follow.

While it may take the correct form, it wouldn't be eligible for the $200m Fieldhouse Funding that CS&E feel is essential to make any project financially feasible.

[king10]

Originally Posted by Riise

While it may take the correct form, it wouldn't be eligible for the $200m Fieldhouse Funding that CS&E feel is essential to make any project financially feasible.

Calgary sports and entertainment is only putting up 200 mill of their own money
The city is putting up 200 mill of their own money.

Let cse build their arena. The city can worry about the outdoor stadium with their 200 mill. 175 mil stadium. 25 mill community field house. No need for this extravagant 1.4 million sq footconvention centre with massive roof. The stadium has always and will always be an after thought to cse.

The field house with indoor track/ courts/ field/ gym can be used year round by the public. The stadium can have an inflatable dome put over top of the playing surface for year round community use.

You have two community facilities instead of a single awkward 200 mill one.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by king10

Calgary sports and entertainment is only putting up 200 mill of their own money
The city is putting up 200 mill of their own money.

Let cse build their arena. The city can worry about the outdoor stadium with their 200 mill. 175 mil stadium. 25 mill community field house. No need for this extravagant 1.4 million sq footconvention centre with massive roof. The stadium has always and will always be an after thought to cse.

The field house with indoor track/ courts/ field/ gym can be used year round by the public. The stadium can have an inflatable dome put over top of the playing surface for year round community use.

You have two community facilities instead of a single awkward 200 mill one.

The $200m I was referring to is the unfunded budget the City has for a fieldhouse. $200m that CS&E probably deem crucial to any plan for a new stadium.

[Oilkountry]

The solution to this is to build both facilities in the land that currently houses the saddledome. I'm sure the city would have no problem Handing that land over for another 50 years to serve such a huge role. If you look at google earth Arial veiw their is a ton of room with existing parking lots to build both facilities. And their is a huge lot beside the Calgary transit building that could serve as temp parking while it's being built. It's Not a bad location to begin with. Few blocks from downtown.

Take that original 200M you had set aside for the Stadium and built an IGF, Which is so well suited to Calgary's needs. Even if you have to build the arena first and then Build the new Stadium after on the old saddledome site I'm sure stamps fans would be okay with a 6-7 year plan.

Can anyone from Calgary tell me why they wouldn't take a stab at the big hunk of open downtown land at fort Calgary? Right east of city hall. Seems like the prime location

[Riise]

While I agree with Ken King that things which are hard to come by are usually more worthwhile, proposing such a complex facility in an area wrought with planning issues may be biting off more than we can chew. My suggestion would be to forget about West Village and the associated CRL funds. It would remove $240m from the budget but let's take a look at that budget.

If we can assume that the City will eventually be able to contribute $200m toward a fieldhouse, a $250m ticket tax funded by private debt is feasible and CS&E can contribute at least $200m, there is $650m in the kitty. Splitting the budget in half would only provide $325m for each facility and that may be insufficient as Rogers Place cost $450m. However, the City of Calgary isn't as desperate for redevelopment as the City of Edmonton so the CS&E need to make some compromises. If they settled on budgeting $350m per venue and fronted another $50m out of pocket, I think we could get somewhere by splitting the arena and fieldhouse across two locations outside of the West Village.

[king10]

I can understand that calgary wants a community use field house. I dont understand why it would cost $200 million.

Hamilton has two facilities(Mac and Mohawk). One cost $30 million, the other $35 million. They include 200 metre indoor running track, weight training gym, 2 to 3 basketball courts, squash courts, rehab/ physio centre, meeting rooms, lecture halls, cafeteria etc etc.

$200 mill for a field house seems overkill and like a taj mahal.

if they want a full 400 metre indoor runing track and football field, thats fine. Doubling the cost of the two venues in Hamilton is roughly $60 to $70 million. Still nowhere near that $200 million number.

Take the savings from spending $60 mill on a community field house, and use the extra $140 million as the major funding chunk for a new outdoor stadium.


In the end you get TWO community use facilities instead of one. And the fieldhouse would be available 365 days a year as a TRUE community centre, not closed for Stampeder practices and game days.

AND

you can use the stadium year round for community use with an inflatable bubble.

Throwing $200 mill at some stadium trying to be community centre/ community centre trying to be stadium is a huge mistake IMO. It doesn't serve either purpose properly.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by king10

Take the savings from spending $60 mill on a community field house, and use the extra $140 million as the major funding chunk for a new outdoor stadium.

If the future fieldhouse comes in under the budgeted $200m, I sincerely doubt the savings would be put toward a stadium. The Mayor and Council seem fully opposed to spending public money for private profit without gaining substantial public benefit.

[king10]

Originally Posted by Riise

If the future fieldhouse comes in under the budgeted $200m, I sincerely doubt the savings would be put toward a stadium. The Mayor and Council seem fully opposed to spending public money for private profit without gaining substantial public benefit.

The stadium would be used by a private sports team 10 times a year.

355 days a year it can be used by community groups and sports teams.

$200 mill for a community centre is going to be the most extravagant community centre in the world.

Also the stadium would operate under a revenue sharing agreement. It wouldn't be solely private profit. THF in Hamilton makes money and the revenue is split between the city and the ticats. It turns a profit for both entities, not solely private sector.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by king10

The stadium would be used by a private sports team 10 times a year.

355 days a year it can be used by community groups and sports teams.

$200 mill for a community centre is going to be the most extravagant community centre in the world.

Also the stadium would operate under a revenue sharing agreement. It wouldn't be solely private profit. THF in Hamilton makes money and the revenue is split between the city and the ticats. It turns a profit for both entities, not solely private sector.

Outdoor facilities cost nothing to operate. You have your 15 gmaes a year and then bring in people to keep the cobwebs away and pipes from freezing.

The indoor facility that Calgary is proposing will run into a trap. The steep operationaal and maintance costs.. who will pay those yearly?

Is this the reason why King and Co. want to pass off ownership to the City so they are stuck with that tab? You have to heat and light that big open box most of the year and that does not come cheap. More times then not it is pawned off to a third party corp like Global Spectrum or AEG that will manage the facility for you but take the lions share of revenues for doing do and have control over programming and sceduling, etc.