Saskatoon Construction III

[ToonTownRob]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Downtown cathedrals sit in the shadows of modern skyscrapers without being overshadowed.

Just read that sentence again and try to have it make sense. If something is in the shadow of something that is the textbook definition of being overshadowed.

It is true that downtown churches can coexist with skyscrapers without being dominated and crowded out. But that is exactly what’s happening in this proposal, whether one likes it or not.

One of the distinctive architectural features of many churches/cathedrals are the windows, often stained glass, rosettes, etc. They need light (NO shadows) to simply function as intended. These are buildings who’s interiors are particularly affected by what happens outside of them, particularly when it comes to light.

I’ll be the first to agree that Whether or not one likes having a church dominated and overshadowed by other buildings around it is a matter of subjective opinion, and even the degree of it in a particular instance is also subjective. But in THIS proposal I think most would agree it’s pretty extreme.

It makes no sense to pretend the issues doesn’t exist, just because you may personally not care about it.

[ToonTownRob]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

Sometimes it takes an opinion from outside in the more dynamic real world to help explain it to the local toontown folk.

Thank heavens we have sophisticated outsiders like you to help us wee ignorant isolated local folk understand what’s right and how things should be done!

Without them I never would have realized that arrogantly having one’s head up one’s a** was a pre-requisite to having a valuable thought!

(With apologies if that goes too far!)

[Oiler]

I love the tower, looks great, looks interesting, kudos to Meridian for another good design and build (hopefully!).

A couple thoughts;

Like another poster said, it reminds me of the acclaimed Aqua at Lakeshore East tower in Chicago .

And, I can appreciate the comments about diminishing the some of the church's charm, particularly internally. But is it possible that the Knox's existence is not sustainable without making this deal? Seems to me that most church's could use some $ to continue to maintain and operate the building? I could be completely wrong here.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by ToonTownRob

Just read that sentence again and try to have it make sense. If something is in the shadow of something that is the textbook definition of being overshadowed.

My point was a building can be physically overshadowed by a bigger building but not be overshadowed in terms of its beauty, history, etc.

In terms of stained glass, if those windows needed direct sun to be beautiful why are there any on the North side???

[FarmerHaight]

I was reading the Saskatoon Voter's Guide last night and laughed out loud when I read Atch and Kyla Kitzul's (Ward 1 candidate) candidate profiles. Both of them mentioned how THEY are the key piece to negotiations with CP to relocate its rail corridor.

As other members have shared, I don't think there is much negotiation to be had. If Saskatoon wants to foot the bill, CP would probably be happy to relocate. The idea that two local politicians are the missing piece in these negotiations is laughable.

https://thestarphoenix.com/news/loca...hared-corridor

[phone]

Originally Posted by ToonTownRob

Thank heavens we have sophisticated outsiders like you to help us wee ignorant isolated local folk understand what’s right and how things should be done!

Without them I never would have realized that arrogantly having one’s head up one’s a** was a pre-requisite to having a valuable thought!

(With apologies if that goes too far!)

As far as I can tell everyone on the national forum thinks SaskScraper is an annoying rube. I wouldn't take anything he has to say too seriously, he just wants a place to throw his weight around. Like he's the only one who's ever left town.

[Ricopedra]

edit

[prairieguy]

Perhaps all the glass/reflective siding on the proposed building was intentional to provide reflective sunlight to the stain glass windows??? (I am joking....)

I initially joked about this building reminding me of the Jetson cartoons, but it is now growing on me, too (much like Highpoint had to grow on me). I do acknowledge the lot choice may not be ideal, but it is what Meridian has owned for a while and they have every right to develop it!

I also hope that this project does indeed assist the bottom line of the Knox Church. It is a beautiful building inside and out with great acoustics (if you have ever gone to a concert or service inside). It is a win/win if both benefit and the city gets a stellar new highrise....I guess that is a win/win/win

[kalin_10]

In my opinion, The Knox Tower, if built, would be Saskatoon's most visually unique tower. Historically, square has been the dominating shape of Saskatoon's skyline. The tower looks modern with an appeal most seen in urbanite communities such as Vancouver. If investors/buyers are there, I'd give Meridian the thumbs-up.

[canuck10]

Originally Posted by prairieguy

. . . I do acknowledge the lot choice may not be ideal, but it is what Meridian has owned for a while and they have every right to develop it!

To set the record straight, Meridian doesn't own the property. The Church owns it. Obviously they must be onside with the development or Meridian wouldn't be applying for a development permit. So from that standpoint Meridian has a right to develop it.

[Ricopedra]

edit

[canuck10]

Originally Posted by Ricopedra

^^canuck10, can you verify that they don't own the property? I'm sure they bought an old house there a few years ago and own at least half the lot they want to build upon. Prove me wrong.

https://pub-saskatoon.escribemeeting...umentId=123534

[ToonTownRob]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

My point was a building can be physically overshadowed by a bigger building but not be overshadowed in terms of its beauty, history, etc.

In terms of stained glass, if those windows needed direct sun to be beautiful why are there any on the North side???

I didn’t say they need direct light, although admittedly that makes a significant difference to the aesthetic on the interior.

However, a New building this tall and this close would prevent lots of light from getting in the south windows, direct or not. I would venture a guess that if completed as proposed, there would be far more light coming* in from the north side than the south, at any time, except in the morning At certain times/seasons when the sun direction allows some to sneak down the chasm between them.

Of concern to me as well is simply the blocking of the view of the Knox from the south.

The issue of financial constraints for churches like this is well noted. Anyone who follows such things will be familiar with the longtime struggles of 3rd Avenue United. I’m certainly not without sympathy to these challenges, but this as a solution feels like Perhaps selling out to the devil in order to continue on.

I hate saying that. I have much respect for Meridian and the proposal, and I agree the design is special and want to see it built.

I don’t claim to have another solution (although I suggested one above). Here’s hoping that a different solution allows this to be built, and in a manner that doesn’t so negatively impact Knox United. Like close the alleyway between the two churches (unneeded in my view, especially once the building is built) and shove the building away from Knox by the width of the alley. Has that been considered?

[prairieguy]

Originally Posted by canuck10

https://pub-saskatoon.escribemeeting...umentId=123534

Thanks for this.....I thought they had bought the house and lot adjacent to the church as well. (that is what a real estate friend had told me a long time ago)
This document clearly indicates ownership!

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by ToonTownRob

I don’t claim to have another solution (although I suggested one above). Here’s hoping that a different solution allows this to be built, and in a manner that doesn’t so negatively impact Knox United. Like close the alleyway between the two churches (unneeded in my view, especially once the building is built) and shove the building away from Knox by the width of the alley. Has that been considered?

I think an alley is needed for garbage, parkade access, etc. Even if closing the alley was workable for Knox Tower I doubt the city would want to close the alley access off Spadina. Regardless, it would be another hoop for Meridian to jump through.

Back to our previous conversation, I would be interested to see a mock-up of the shadows cast by the tower on the church. Because of the angle of Spadina, Know should get direct sun in the morning. I took a closer look at the proposal and it looks like the podium that cuts behind the church is lower than the main glass windows at the back. I hope that means late afternoon/early evening direct sun would hit the windows!

[EarlyByrdProductions]

Heyo, I'm doing some research on traditional neighbourhoods and urban planning and looking for some insight. North American stats show a traditional neighbourhood should be between 5000-9000 (enough to sustain a school and other amenities). Saskatoon and Regina neighbourhoods are between 3000 and 5000.

NA Stats also show 10% of a neighbourhood should be parks and green/open space. Does anyone know what the average is in Saskatoon for parks and open space in most neighbourhoods as well as public space?

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by EarlyByrdProductions

Does anyone know what the average is in Saskatoon for parks and open space in most neighbourhoods as well as public space?

https://www.saskatoon.ca/sites/defau...files_2019.pdf

That link will take you to the Neighbourhood Profiles publication that shows population, total area, and park space broken down by neighbourhoods.

It also shows Saskatoon's total numbers. Looks like Saskatoon as a whole is 10.98% parks.

[Roquentin]

Originally Posted by ToonTownRob

I agree that the Meridian proposal needs and deserves a prominent site on the river bank.

The Ukrainian museum of Canada and the parking lot beside it are/were for sale. That would be an excellent site for this without destroying the spacing around an already existing great building.

And the podium wouldn’t need its inefficient L shape to adapt to an inappropriate site.

It strikes me as odd how often some people seem driven to form their opinions based on ideologies rather than looking at each opportunity based on its individual merits, with an understanding and acceptance that there is lots of grey in the world, and that’s okay. It is rare that anything is rightly just black or white.

The church doesn't own that property, though. That is not a minor detail. Something else will eventually be built there, and that will be another conversation.

Frankly, I think that this strip badly needs the residential density. That part of the park across the street has gotten really fucking weird and drugged out lately. There are always syringes around the gazebo and the landscaping there. At night, the street is sketchy and barren. The churches are dead at night (and often during the day) and don't provide the eyes on the street that this development would. Also, it would be such a beautiful place to live --- this is the kind of development that Saskatoon's downtown needs in order to remain an attractive place to live, with a variety of new housing options.

Anyway, as others have noted too, I think the cautionary tale here is the Third Avenue United Church. That church would have loved to have had a parking lot to sell, even if it meant less sunlight on their windows or less visibility from the road (what an argument, ha, in light of the many, far greater benefits of projects like this to the city). I don't know anything about the Knox Church's finances, but buildings like that are damn expensive. This development could provide for the Church's long-term financial stability like nothing else (beyond a thriving congregation). To the extent that aesthetics matter, imagine being on this street twenty years from now. Would you rather see a bustling, attractive highrise beside the Knox Church, or would you prefer to see the current decrepit parking lot that the Church can't afford to pave beside the church itself, perhaps in a situation echoing that of the Third Avenue Church (which has flirted with the wrecking ball)? But heavens (sorry), think of the stained-glass windows!

Having said that, this development needs to be held to the highest standards. If Baydo were the developers here, that would be scarier than a thousand Halloweens. Meridian are far more capable, but this is still ambitious for them. A grander Escala would be just fine though.

[roryn1]

Well said Roquentin. This area is going to be a lot more lively with these new towers which help (but not solve) the:
1. sketchy uneasiness being around individuals that are high on drugs that could be getting assistance from Prairie Harm Reduction if the Sask Party opened their eyes and help fund them - starting ten years ago.
2. crime from individuals that are desperate and not getting the help they need from our provincial social services program left abandoned by Sask Party

Those two concerns are why myself and anyone I know selling condos in my building are leaving this area.

A building like this will make this side of the river more resident friendly like on the direct other side of the river.

Think about those two main drivers this election. I’m not even in love with the NDP, but god damn has Sask Party been bad for our downtown over the last decade. I’m like a republican against Trump, but a Conservative Against Sask Party...

[roryn1]

Viterra announced the construction of a grain elevator in Biggar - not entirely relevant here, but i think that amount of concrete is similar to a tower? Which should keep concrete prices cheaper/stable in the area. I think that’s a huge incentivizer for out of town prospective developers.