Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[racc]

Originally Posted by SpikePhanta

^^^^
I read that article a couple days ago and is there anyway of finding the picture of the Metrotown station before The mall was created?

http://buzzer.translink.ca/index.php/2010/01/skytrain-flashback-photos/

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Spork

Photo of Metrotown area before the mall: http://www.globalairphotos.com/large/BC/Burnaby/Metrotown/1985/025/1

I found this quite interesting, as to me, Metrotown has always existed. I had no idea it was so desolate before.

Hence forth why it seemed to just spring up so fast. There was really nothing there to stop the developers from developing.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

Yeef, missed this one. Good eye jlousa; this will be godzilla-huge if translink or victoria bought lougheed mall, for prospective development and resulting financing of the evergreen line.



http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Bre...roperty+market+report/2774927/story.html

Interesting ....

If true, this could be a method for partly funding the UBC line. I've always thought that Kingsgate Mall (Kingsway @ Broadway) was ripe for redevelopment with condo towers, office towers, and a new mall tied into a new UBC line station - not unlike what already exists with Van City Centre Stn tied in to Pacific Centre and Vancouver Centre malls & office towers. Only in this case, profits from the redevelopment would be used to cover some of the UBC line construction costs. Or the increased annual rents &tc would cover some of the UBC line operating costs & still give VSB some rental income too.

I'm not sure how this could be done, since the property is owned by Vancouver School Board (its the former site of Mount Pleasant Elementary School which was knocked over ca. 1975), but perhaps VSB can be persuaded to part with the property to balance their books.

Or VSB and TransLink can develop the site & split profits & revenues.

Perhaps create a P3 entity where some Eastern pension funds do the redevelopment as part of their buy-in to build the UBC line, with VSB getting a share in the profits.


Any other sites along the UBC line that might be redeveloped for building the UBC line?
(it helps if the land is already owned by a gov't entity; private developers are already salivating at the prospects of redeveloping their property when the UBC line gets built)

[djh]

So just to clarify, is this what is being suggested:
- That the Province is (perhaps secretly) buying up property along the proposed UBC Line route
- That the Province or City will then rezone the land (as has been previously suggested be done around transit hubs) for high-density commercial and residential tower development
- That the Province/City/combination/P3 then develop these lands and make an income from either selling or renting these sites
- That the income from the above is then used to offset the cost of the UBC Line

Is that right?

Is this just conjecture or is there some inside information here?

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Hence forth why it seemed to just spring up so fast. There was really nothing there to stop the developers from developing.

It also helped that there were three malls built beside each other (Metrotown Centre; Eaton Centre Metrotown; Station Square) so the developers competed against each other to build as fast as possible.

I think Metrotown Centre opened first with a new Woodwards on the side closest to SkyTrain, the original Sears on the Kingsway side, and a new mall connecting the two. Eaton Centre Metrotown was a completely new development and opened later with Eatons, the mall and MetroTower connected directly to the SkyTrain station. Station Square is the odd site that isn't easily connected to SkyTrain, using the breezeway over the bus loop. With the financial problems of one of the mall owners in the 90s (probably caused by the loss of Eatons), it became feasible to have the two separate malls owned by the same company, so they were joined together and re-branded as "Metropolis at Metrotown"

Pretty impressive when you realise at one time these malls had The Bay, Eatons, Woodwards, and Sears -plus all the other usual mall stores- all under one roof. and just a SkyTrain ride away too.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by djh

So just to clarify, is this what is being suggested:
- That the Province is (perhaps secretly) buying up property along the proposed UBC Line route
- That the Province or City will then rezone the land (as has been previously suggested be done around transit hubs) for high-density commercial and residential tower development
- That the Province/City/combination/P3 then develop these lands and make an income from either selling or renting these sites
- That the income from the above is then used to offset the cost of the UBC Line

Is that right?

Is this just conjecture or is there some inside information here?

Just conjecture based on Gordo's love of P3s and shiny new trains.
Since C-Line seemed to work A-OK as a P3 he wants to repeat the magic. It doesn't matter if the P3 falls apart in 20 or 30 years, he'll be pensioned off in Hawaii and someone else will deal with the problem.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Just conjecture based on Gordo's love of P3s and shiny new trains.
Since C-Line seemed to work A-OK as a P3 he wants to repeat the magic. It doesn't matter if the P3 falls apart in 20 or 30 years, he'll be pensioned off in Hawaii and someone else will deal with the problem.

Like it has been said before, the P3 model for the M-Line Extension and Evergreen Line will be different, and quite different from the one used on the Canada Line. Unless the model includes contracting off SkyTrain completely, the operation of the M-Line and Evergreen Line must be done by BCRTC. The P3 model that should be used in this case is that the private company builds the line but doesn't operate it, which really reduces the risk for the private company. With the Canada Line now, ProTransBC is fined heavily if they don't meet a certain delivery and scheduled targets.

There are benefits to this, however, as the operation is controlled by BCRTC, it's easy for them to change schedules, add more trains to service, etc.

Buying and selling properties should've been done since the building of the Canada Line. Many metro companies have made profit by doing this, including the Japanese networks and Hong Kong's MTR. Not only is money made to offset the cost of building at the initial phases of the project, but that it will guarantee additional ridership to the network. Hopefully, TransLink and the Province has learned and goes through with this.

[officedweller]

With a "non-operate" P3 model, you probbaly wouldn't be able to obtain as large a financial contribution from the private partner, so maybe real estate development would serve to fill any remaining "funding gap".

[Zassk]

I think it's a brilliant way to handle the line. Too brilliant to come to fruition.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ Calgary just did this with the new West Line, defrayed some $160 million of costs on a 8 km route (the savings amount doesn't take into account the original project estimate was done during the boom, and the tender was in the deep dip however)

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

It also helped that there were three malls built beside each other (Metrotown Centre; Eaton Centre Metrotown; Station Square) so the developers competed against each other to build as fast as possible.

No doubt on that moving things a long faster. But even the surronding area was desolate. Not just the area where the mall is. If that area had been all single family homes. Chances are we would never have seen Metrotown.

I think Metrotown Centre opened first with a new Woodwards on the side closest to SkyTrain, the original Sears on the Kingsway side, and a new mall connecting the two. Eaton Centre Metrotown was a completely new development and opened later with Eatons, the mall and MetroTower connected directly to the SkyTrain station. Station Square is the odd site that isn't easily connected to SkyTrain, using the breezeway over the bus loop. With the financial problems of one of the mall owners in the 90s (probably caused by the loss of Eatons), it became feasible to have the two separate malls owned by the same company, so they were joined together and re-branded as "Metropolis at Metrotown"

Pretty impressive when you realise at one time these malls had The Bay, Eatons, Woodwards, and Sears -plus all the other usual mall stores- all under one roof. and just a SkyTrain ride away too.

The Sears to Woodwards section always existed. It used to the warehouse for Sears and you can see it in the photos. They just fixed it up to put the stores and Woodwards in. That opened in 1986

The section that used to be Eatons Centre opened in either 1988 or 1989. But I'm leaning more towards 1989.

Station Square was either built a the same time as Eaton Centre or just after. I'm trying to remember when the save on foods parking roof collapsed. Because that happened soon after it opened.

The section that extends out to the bay opened in 1991. At that time they built the sky walk joining the two malls.

As for the mall becoming one owner that didn't happen in the 90's but in the 00's. Originally Manulife owned the older section with Sears. Ivanhoe Cambridge owned the section with Eatons. When 9/11 happened. Manulife had was hit hard. So they were forced to sell their half to Ivanhoe Cambridge. This happened soon after post 9/11. Which is why about 1-2 years later. You suddenly started to see construction on the joining of the two malls.

Station square is owned by another company, just not sure which one.

[jsbertram]

I understand that every P3 is specific to what the Gov't needs for each project.

I was also reminded this week that TransLink / City / UBC et.al. are still in the early stages of deciding what to build for the UBC line, so I expect a few more years before a final recommendation on equipment, construction method, routing, and station locations is made. Meanwhile Evergreen line may be started this year and completed & running before the UBC line recommendations are made.

I think 2015 will find us in a quiet period similar to what we have now: New line finished & running (Canada Line now; Evergreen Line in 2015), and the next line ready to go as soon as funding is figured out (Evergreen Line now; UBC Line 2015). The nice thing about getting a final recommendation soon is that all the pro- and anti- subway forces have had their say, so when funding is found we can quickly get the engineering drawings done and start construction ASAP.

With Surrey extension just starting the Phase One discussions, they may still be talking and planning when UBC Line actually opens, so they'll be the next line with decisions made & waiting funding.

[officedweller]

Anthem Properties owns Station Square - they have long term redevelopment plans - haven't heard anything recently though.

As for the various properties, the former Eaton Centre Metrotown has the best underground parkade in the lower mainland - nice wide roadways/aisles, round columns for great visibility. Because the former Metrotown Centre was a retrofit project, it's parking is largely above-ground. The newer underground part under The Bay isn't as well laid-out as Eatron Centre's.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Anthem Properties owns Station Square - they have long term redevelopment plans - haven't heard anything recently though.

As for the various properties, the former Eaton Centre Metrotown has the best underground parkade in the lower mainland - nice wide roadways/aisles, round columns for great visibility. Because the former Metrotown Centre was a retrofit project, it's parking is largely above-ground. The newer underground part under The Bay isn't as well laid-out as Eatron Centre's.

How are they ever going to redevelop station square? All the buildings are integrated together. I don't see the Holiday Inn wanting to move, and there seems to be courtyards for the condo towers above where the Future Shop and theater are. It would be great if they could because of the access to Skytrain, but all I can see them doing is replacing the theater with a higher rent tenant (if there are any left that AREN'T already in the Mall).

And if you go into the Bay side of the parkade off Kingsway and stick to the right and go down to P2 right away, you can always find spots right there, next to the Central court and Food court.

[LeftCoaster]

There were plans posted here a while back, i cant even begin to think of wher to look for them though.

Jlousa, interesting news about the Brentwood redevelopment, I would imagine the redevelopment would be starting in the Sears corner and stretch across the parking lot to the skytrain station... I dont really think they would develop the Willingdon frontage. I would imagine the "large Ontario-based pension fund" would be Cadillac (OTPP), as I dont see Hoop investing outside ontario and I dont think any of the smaller pension funds like PSPP or OMERS would be either.

I'll be very interested to watch this one develop... between this news, the project at the Nissan dealership across the street and a few other miscelanous projects Brentwood could be unrecognizable in 20 years.

[SpikePhanta]

Originally Posted by racc

http://buzzer.translink.ca/index.php/2010/01/skytrain-flashback-photos/

Thanks!

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

There were plans posted here a while back, i cant even begin to think of wher to look for them though.

Jlousa, interesting news about the Brentwood redevelopment, I would imagine the redevelopment would be starting in the Sears corner and stretch across the parking lot to the skytrain station... I dont really think they would develop the Willingdon frontage. I would imagine the "large Ontario-based pension fund" would be Cadillac (OTPP), as I dont see Hoop investing outside ontario and I dont think any of the smaller pension funds like PSPP or OMERS would be either.

I'll be very interested to watch this one develop... between this news, the project at the Nissan dealership across the street and a few other miscelanous projects Brentwood could be unrecognizable in 20 years.

From various points in south burnaby Brentwood has changed a bit from 10 years ago.


Also anyone thinks that the area in the middle of Metrotown and Edmonds will be redeveloped?
Like just drive down the stretch of kingsway or take the skytrain from Edmonds to Metrotown and you can see all the potential space for future development

[red-paladin]

I hate station square.

I heard the developer say in some article that they would love to develop it into a real indoor mall but they were severely constrained in what they can do because of commitments to the residents and tenants about what can built.

Anyway, my 'development dream' would be for it to be merged with Metropolis at Metrotown and for it to be redeveloped into an indoor mall with condos and offices above. In fact, I wish that Crystal Mall would buy the remaining scuzzy properties on Kingsway, finish their mall, and build a 2nd floor covered skyway, Calgary style, across the street to connect it to the new 2nd floor of Station Square.

I actually emailed Burnaby planning and asked them what was going on with that old bank / A&B sound site since it is blocking several lanes of road, and they said Crystal Mall might buy it and redevelop it. But as for Station Square, I think I'm dreaming that anything cohesive will ever emerge from that misbegotten mess.

[jlousa]

Crystal mall tried to buy them before construction but the owner/owners held out so the mall built around them. Those properties are now worth less then they would've been at the time as they aren't deep enough to do much with on their own. A case of greed I can only imagine.

Anthems plan for Station square aren't all that impressive but definitely an improvement over the current situation.

[SpikePhanta]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Crystal mall tried to buy them before construction but the owner/owners held out so the mall built around them. Those properties are now worth less then they would've been at the time as they aren't deep enough to do much with on their own. A case of greed I can only imagine.

Anthems plan for Station square aren't all that impressive but definitely an improvement over the current situation.

I saw a couple ideas about Station Square redevelopment here http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=139672


I sure hope it does redevelop into something.

[officedweller]

WRT Station Square I recall talk on the forum about demolishing the parkade and building a new store for Save-on-Foods on the parkade site (i.e. streetfront, maybe with underground parking?) and then redeveloping the old Save-on-Foods side of the project.
The site is also constrained because MacKay St. (I think that's the name) cuts through the site to the Metropolis parkade entrance.