Atlantic Canada airport thread

[NBNYer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You'll like this picture then. It shows the United Flight, and a "rescue plane" that was sent to take the passengers ongoing.


I don't know why this was necessary, but for a time there were two United flights on the tarmac.

Yes, I just happened to be driving by the airport and saw them. Apparently, the first plane's crew had surpassed their permitted work-hours and a new crew had to be flown in to get the passengers off the ground and on their way. Quite the expense for United.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

So in other words, subsidies worked.

Only if you intend to pay the subsidies in perpetuity.

I think the idea was to subsidize the route initially, to build PAX, and allow the route to become self sustaining.

Obviously the route made no business sense (at least to Northwest).

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Only if you intend to pay the subsidies in perpetuity.

I think the idea was to subsidize the route initially, to build PAX, and allow the route to become self sustaining.

Obviously the route made no business sense (at least to Northwest).

That’s basically what other countries and regions do. We’re a smaller province with less than a million people.

Subsidizing routes makes economic sense on a lot of levels. Not only does continuing the subsidies bolster tourism into the province, but it gives NBers more transportation freedom, which in turn raises our level of economic development. The increased tourism a lone should make continuing the subsidies worthwhile, but increased travel options is worthwhile to NBers who want to take vacations.

If we’re not going to subsidize more flights, then at least subsidize a bus service to New England, preferably all the way to Boston. Don’t think the NB airports will be a fan of that, but I think it would go over well with the average New Brunswicker. Our government subsidies things far less useful and advantageous to the average person than some better flight options or a new bus route to Boston.

[MonctonRad]

Subsidization could get very messy, and, is inherently political.

Which airports would be chosen for subsidized routes? One, two or all three.

If all three, then what would the routings be? Would YSJ get Boston, YQM get NYC and YFC get Chicago??? Would all three airports want the same destinations?

What about service frequencies? Would YSJ take umbrage if they get 5x weekly to Boston, but YQM is offered 2x daily to NYC????

It would be a dog's breakfast. You can rest assured someone would be upset.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Subsidization could get very messy, and, is inherently political.

Which airports would be chosen for subsidized routes? One, two or all three.

If all three, then what would the routings be? Would YSJ get Boston, YQM get NYC and YFC get Chicago??? Would all three airports want the same destinations?

What about service frequencies? Would YSJ take umbrage if they get 5x weekly to Boston, but YQM is offered 2x daily to NYC????

It would be a dog's breakfast. You can rest assured someone would be upset.

Great questions, but I think we’d all take what we can get versus what we aren’t getting at the moment without subsidies.

What isn’t inherently political, messy, or inequitable when it comes to government spending? The NB government currently subsidizes far less useful things to the average tax payer than better flight options.

I don’t think you’d see many complaints and infighting between the cities over getting better flights, especially if they scaled back subsidies to certain industries and companies to help pay for these subsidized routes.

[Bishop2047]

I am totally against the 1 airport solution for NB but this is a major advantage for provinces with a singular primary airport. Governments can subsidize routes and services without looking like they are picking favorites or between cities/airports. NB governments will always be hesitant to do anything that looks like favoritism between the three larger cities.

That said I will take my airport less than an hour from home over a few extra routes any day.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Bishop2047

I am totally against the 1 airport solution for NB but this is a major advantage for provinces with a singular primary airport. Governments can subsidize routes and services without looking like they are picking favorites or between cities/airports. NB governments will always be hesitant to do anything that looks like favoritism between the three larger cities.

That said I will take my airport less than an hour from home over a few extra routes any day.

How about the SJ/Fredericton combined airport solution? Would be less than an hour for both cities, increase routes, and probably lower prices too. I think it would help lower prices, and for Moncton too, as it would increase competition.

YSJ and YFC are currently too small to compete with YQM on their own… but combined, could improve the situation for all three cities.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Bishop2047

That said I will take my airport less than an hour from home over a few extra routes any day.

Agreed. I appreciate EnvisionSaintJohns enthusiasm, but, I remain unconvinced that a single NB airport would improve our plight much.

In particular, I can't see much enthusiasm for this enterprise from greater Moncton.

A combo Freddy/SJ airport makes a little more sense given the proximity of the two cities, but, again, you're talking about a billion dollar investment (at least), and left with the question of what to do with the existing airports. He keeps talking about turning them into air cargo facilities, but, YQM and YHZ already occupy this niche. How many air cargo facilities do we need?

Proximity of an airport to your bed counts a lot. I really appreciate that if I get back to Moncton at midnight on a redeye flight, there is a good chance I will be in my bed 30 minutes later. I would be considerably less happy in a similar scenario confronted by a 45 minute drive from Sussex (potentially through a blizzard).

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Agreed. I appreciate EnvisionSaintJohns enthusiasm, but, I remain unconvinced that a single NB airport would improve our plight much.

In particular, I can't see much enthusiasm for this enterprise from greater Moncton.

A combo Freddy/SJ airport makes a little more sense given the proximity of the two cities, but, again, you're talking about a billion dollar investment (at least), and left with the question of what to do with the existing airports. He keeps talking about turning them into air cargo facilities, but, YQM and YHZ already occupy this niche. How many air cargo facilities do we need?

Proximity of an airport to your bed counts a lot. I really appreciate that if I get back to Moncton at midnight on a redeye flight, there is a good chance I will be in my bed 30 minutes later. I would be considerably less happy in a similar scenario confronted by a 45 minute drive from Sussex (potentially through a blizzard).

Heads up, my preferred pronoun is they, thanks!

I don’t think a one airport solution is preferable at all. Two airports for the three major cities is preferable to the current situation.

As for the viability of turning YFC and YSJ into cargo focussed airports, if the province’s population is going to grow anywhere close to the 2050 numbers you’ve speculated in the stats thread, there’s definitely room to increase our air cargo capacity through other airports than YQM.

As I understood YFC already has significant cargo capacity at the moment, and YSJ has plans to increase their cargo capacity. Combined with the intermodal logistics facility in West Saint John and the rapid growth of Port Saint John, it’s really not much of a stretch for YSJ to transition to a cargo focus one day. Even if it were simply transitioned to become a general aviation / charter flight airport, it would still make the investment in a combined Fredericton/Saint John airport well worth it in the long term.

Interested where you get this at least a billion figure from. It doesn’t seem far off, but what are you basing that off? Regardless, the potential economic benefit would still far exceed this initial investment in the long run, as it would spur urban development north of Saint John and south of Fredericton, and get Fredericton and Saint John closer to being considered one single FUA.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Subsidization could get very messy, and, is inherently political.

Which airports would be chosen for subsidized routes? One, two or all three.

If all three, then what would the routings be? Would YSJ get Boston, YQM get NYC and YFC get Chicago??? Would all three airports want the same destinations?

What about service frequencies? Would YSJ take umbrage if they get 5x weekly to Boston, but YQM is offered 2x daily to NYC????

It would be a dog's breakfast. You can rest assured someone would be upset.

You forgot ZBF! Your comments illustrate how messy it would become with the subsidy game. Would it just be Canadian based airlines; or would foreign airlines (read: US) be eligible for the subsidies as well. A conversation around an essential services program which is federally funded like that in the US should be happening.

[Taeolas]

For YFC, I may be blind to the current use, but I don't really see much use as a cargo airport for it, mostly because we don't really have cargo infrastructure around it to make use of it. Lincoln road would need updates; and really Fredericton isn't really the sort of place you think of when you think of Cargo.

I'm not sure if a Freddy-SJ Airport would happen; but if it did, YFC would probably be demoted to just a commuter/education airport, mainly for government and business traffic, and probably continuing/expanding use of the Flight School.

YSJ is pivoting already for more cargo use, and SJ already has a lot of cargo experience in general, so pushing YSJ further towards a Cargo purpose would make sense.

[sailor734]

Hearing rumblings that the YSJ link proposed for Montreal Metropolitan next year likely to be Pascan and not Porter.

30 year old Saab 340's instead of a newish Q400 that's 50 plus knots faster, has better storage and is quieter

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Hearing rumblings that the YSJ link proposed for Montreal Metropolitan next year likely to be Pascan and not Porter.

30 year old Saab 340's instead of a newish Q400 that's 50 plus knots faster, has better storage and is quieter

This would be horrible. I would hold out for Porter.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

This would be horrible. I would hold out for Porter.

When you are a Maritime airport there is no "holding out." You take what you can get.

[MonctonRad]

The full summertime schedule is apparently up and running at YQM Moncton. There is actually a decent amount of domestic service on the schedule! Of note is 3x WestJet to Calgary, Edmonton and Toronto. Also 3x Porter to Ottawa and Billy Bishop. We are up to 3x daily on Air Canada to Toronto. There is a grand total of 15 departures tomorrow (Sunday) out of YQM (or, there would have been if the early flight to Montreal had not been cancelled).

1. 1501 Air Canada Toronto Jun 9 - 5:20 AM OnTime
2. 1561 Air Canada Montreal Jun 9 - 6:35 AM Cancelled
3. 409 WestJet Calgary Jun 9 - 7:15 AM OnTime
4. 2370 Porter Airlines Ottawa Jun 9 - 9:10 AM OnTime
5. 8803 Air Transat Toronto Jun 9 - 11:00 AM OnTime
6. 501 WestJet Toronto Jun 9 - 11:00 AM OnTime
7. 1503 Air Canada Toronto Jun 9 - 11:40 AM OnTime
8. 923 PAL Airlines Mont Joli,Wabush Jun 9 - 11:55 AM OnTime
9. 7686 Air Canada Montreal Jun 9 - 1:45 PM OnTime
10. 2294 Porter Airlines Toronto City Jun 9 - 3:15 PM OnTime
11. 1565 Air Canada Montreal Jun 9 - 4:20 PM OnTime
12. 1505 Air Canada Toronto Jun 9 - 6:10 PM OnTime
13. 924 PAL Airlines Deer Lake,St. John"s Jun 9 - 6:30 PM OnTime
14. 2374 Porter Airlines Ottawa Jun 9 - 6:50 PM OnTime
15. 411 WestJet Edmonton Jun 9 - 7:15 PM OnTime

Another thing that is nice to see is that departures is busy for the entire day! I've gotten used to the idea of at least half the daily flights leaving between 0530 and 0800, with the airport relatively dead for the rest of the day. This change is quite refreshing!

[Justanothermember]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Hearing rumblings that the YSJ link proposed for Montreal Metropolitan next year likely to be Pascan and not Porter.

30 year old Saab 340's instead of a newish Q400 that's 50 plus knots faster, has better storage and is quieter

Saint John deserves better than this.

[MonctonRad]

The new RCAF Airbus CC-330s seem to be regular visitors to YQM over the last month or so. At least 1-2x weekly, inbound and outbound to Riga, Latvia.

This would of course be in support of our mission there. My question is why are they not using YFC as their destination airport? YFC is essentially next door to CFB Gagetown. Is their runway there too short???

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The new RCAF Airbus CC-330s seem to be regular visitors to YQM over the last month or so. At least 1-2x weekly, inbound and outbound to Riga, Latvia.

This would of course be in support of our mission there. My question is why are they not using YFC as their destination airport? YFC is essentially next door to CFB Gagetown. Is their runway there too short???

Looks like it is runway length. A few quick googles says YFC's two runways are 1829m and 2440m.

Similar googling says Airbus-330's need 2500m; so YFC is about 60m short. (more realistically it's probably about 500m short to add a bit of safety).

Moncton's longest runway is 3048m, so it is long enough. (It's second runway is only 2438m so that would do for landing but not for takeoffs)

[sailor734]

10-11,000 feet seems to be the norm in order to handle the full range of widebody commercial aircraft in use today. IFAIR YFC extended their runway a few years ago. ....wonder why they stopped at 8,000'? Financial considerations or issues with topography maybe? Seems like it would be desirable to have a runway capable of handling widebody heavy's adjacent base Gagetown.

https://aircyber.weebly.com/aircraft-runway-requirements.html

[MonctonRad]

Runway 06/24 at YQM is essentially as long as they could possibly make it. It is limited by the TCH to the NE and Champlain Street to the SW.

I recall when they extended this runway about a decade ago or so, they made damned sure to make the runway as long as possible to deal with the "heavies."

06/24 is just shy of 10,000 ft.