Transit Fantasies

[Migrant_Coconut]

I think they just wanted it to connect to Granville and call it quits; terminating halfway along Davie would've ended... poorly.

WRT Pacific, it's not exactly a pedestrian street, now or in the future.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The road grid under the viaducts is kind of a mess right now - gotta fix that before adding trams, and the least-complicated way to fix it is removing the viaducts.

I distinctly recall me and Farmer saying "Robson" and not either of those streets; the City wants Quebec, Water/Cordova and part of Drake.

The problem with the viaduct removal plans (as done) was the high cost of the plan required them to force any prospective streetcar onto mixed-traffic for extra CACs. Which is why NEFC may be in jeopardy right now. It was too expensive when it was proposed, and it doesn't look so feasible anymore.

If it is done, it'll probably not be the same exact plan. The only way to get more CACs is to cut into the prospective future Parkland, or make the towers permitted go much taller than the viewcones.

[Migrant_Coconut]

AFAIK there was no plan to ever segregate the streetcar between Science World and Pacific, so no loss there. NEFC itself is waiting for Concord to get its act together, and once those CACs are available, boom goes the dynamite.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Can't understand why it's never Pacific -> Davie. It's literally already a trolley route.

I know I would have utilized a streetcar from Science World to English Bay via Davie frequently when I lived in Burnaby. My wife and I avoided ever using downtown Vancouver's beaches because they were difficult to get to by transit (it's almost a a 30-minute bus ride from Chinatown to English Bay!) and expensive to visit by car (parking). We usually went to Kits, White Rock or North Van instead.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Might have been because the 6 is the only northbound route along downtown Cambie; the 17 only goes southbound. Drake doesn't have any transit at all.

At any rate, a terminus at Drake/Granville is probably not happening, now that Granville's loops are being replaced with a road grid.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

AFAIK there was no plan to ever segregate the streetcar between Science World and Pacific, so no loss there. NEFC itself is waiting for Concord to get its act together, and once those CACs are available, boom goes the dynamite.

There wasn't, but that doesn't mean that was a smart.

They should have kept the same wide median.

Would have made it better to walk across and along too.


The issue is costs have grown significantly since the already-original ambitious proposal, and they probably need more money.

Concord would likely be the ones paying the extra CACs, since they're the biggest landholder there.

So Concord is a problem, but they also don't have any incentive to speed up either.


I think originally they wanted most or all the land under and near the viaducts (including the future parkland) for development, or at least under their control.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Might have been because the 6 is the only northbound route along downtown Cambie; the 17 only goes southbound. Drake doesn't have any transit at all.

At any rate, a terminus at Drake/Granville is probably not happening, now that Granville's loops are being replaced with a road grid.

It would be less of a problem if the line extended all the way into the West End or to Stanley Park. Or formed a loop by connecting to the line going to Waterfront.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Could've, would've, should've. Didn't.

Such a line would likely require a mixed-traffic route through Davie and Denman (and Cordova/Georgia, if you want a Waterfront connection), which you've already said is a bad idea.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by fredinno

There wasn't, but that doesn't mean that was a smart.

They should have kept the same wide median.

Would have made it better to walk across and along too.


The issue is costs have grown significantly since the already-original ambitious proposal, and they probably need more money.

Concord would likely be the ones paying the extra CACs, since they're the biggest landholder there.

So Concord is a problem, but they also don't have any incentive to speed up either.


I think originally they wanted most or all the land under and near the viaducts (including the future parkland) for development, or at least under their control.

They have a ton of land elsewhere in Vancouver anyways, and who knows what their finances are after the insane St. Pauls' aquisition.




It would be less of a problem if the line extended all the way into the West End or to Stanley Park. Or formed a loop by connecting to the line going to Waterfront.

Concord don't want the future park because it's where all the contaminated soils are located, and the Park Board aren't going to maintain something they don't own.

The City's streetcar route doesn't end at Waterfront, it goes to Stanley Park. There's even aright of way in Coal Harbour waiting for it.

[fredinno]

Well, you could just close off the street to car traffic, which I think you suggested anyways.

Originally Posted by Changing City

Concord don't want the future park because it's where all the contaminated soils are located, and the Park Board aren't going to maintain something they don't own.

The City's streetcar route doesn't end at Waterfront, it goes to Stanley Park. There's even aright of way in Coal Harbour waiting for it.

We were talking about the terminus for the southern streetcar route, not the Northern one.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Changing City

The City's streetcar route doesn't end at Waterfront, it goes to Stanley Park. There's even aright of way in Coal Harbour waiting for it.

Yes, and that alignment actually matches travel patterns. Plenty of people (residents and tourists) have reasons to travel between Stanley Park and Waterfront, and there are several destinations along the way (Canada Place, Seaplane Terminal, Coal Harbour, Bayshore).

The problem with Drake is you get people to essentially the end of the Hastings Entertainment District, and further along you would have to deal with the fact that Drake turns into a back lane. Davie is a much more popular street for walking and transit so it would be more useful for riders, plus it easily ties into English Bay for a natural end point. As for width, Davie has curbside parking along most of its length. Remove that and you have a natural curbside streetcar-only travel lane.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Well, you could just close off the street to car traffic, which I think you suggested anyways.

I suggested closing Robson to car traffic. Robson could be closed because there are continuous back lanes to facilitate deliveries and because there are close-by alternative travel options (Georgia and Alberni).

Davie also has back lanes but it is the only good through street since most of its neighbours are traffic-calmed. Plus, all of the traffic coming off of the Burrard and Georgia bridges is funneled onto Davie in order to access the West End. It would be much more painful to close Davie.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I suggested closing Robson to car traffic. Robson could be closed because there are continuous back lanes to facilitate deliveries and because there are close-by alternative travel options (Georgia and Alberni).

Davie also has back lanes but it is the only good through street since most of its neighbours are traffic-calmed. Plus, all of the traffic coming off of the Burrard and Georgia bridges is funneled onto Davie in order to access the West End. It would be much more painful to close Davie.

Georgia Bridge? The Viaducts?

There's Pacific Ave nearby.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Since the downtown is diagonal it is difficult to use directions, but I meant the area bounded by Denman, Stanley Park, Beach, and Georgia.

I should have said "above" or "northwest of" Denman.

That would be west of Denman using Vnacouver-specific convention.

i.e. it's "West" Georgia / Hastings / Pender / Cordova (not "Northwest"...) so those streets are taken to run east-west.
The perpendicular streets are taken to run north-south.

It's also the West End, not the Northwest End, which is west of Burrard.

That's local convention, not exact, but locally understood.

Originally Posted by chowhou

Can't understand why it's never Pacific -> Davie. It's literally already a trolley route.

That's probably because of the steep hill on Davie between Hamilton and Homer.

The 2002 Downtown Transportation Plan discusses it (over staying on Pacific Blvd to Granville Bridge elevators),
but doesn't say the reason why Drake is preferred.
PS - this is back when plans had actual plans, not just concepts and objectives.

https://vancouver.ca/files/cov/downtown-transportation-plan-section4.pdf

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Georgia Bridge? The Viaducts?

There's Pacific Ave nearby.

I meant Granville Bridge.

You can't turn left at the bottom of the Burrard Bridge. Instead, you have to turn right onto Pacific, then left onto Hornby. After that your only left-turn options before Robson to head northwest into the West End is Davie or Smithe (which is traffic-calmed at Thurlow so you would need to turn left again at Thurlow then right onto Barclay or Nelson).

Since the Granville ramps are closing there is no way to get onto Pacific unless you turn right at Drake and right again at Pacific. Otherwise, your only option to get into the West End is, again, Davie.

There would need to be a significant re-design of the West End's entire southwest street grid to accommodate closing Davie. Pacific is only one lane in each direction after Burrard so it likely cannot handle increased traffic volumes without removing the bike lane and curbside parking. And there are the connectivity issues coming from the south that I mentioned above.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I meant Granville Bridge.

You can't turn left at the bottom of the Burrard Bridge. Instead, you have to turn right onto Pacific, then left onto Hornby. After that your only left-turn options before Robson to head northwest into the West End is Davie or Smithe (which is traffic-calmed at Thurlow so you would need to turn left again at Thurlow then right onto Barclay or Nelson).

From northbound Burrard Bridge to the West End you round the block with right hand turns.
From the bridge, you turn right onto Pacific, then right onto Howe (2 blocks east) then right onto Beach Ave.
That why the rightmost right turn lane on Burrard Bridge is clogged up.
That's the line-up for the cars heading to the West End via Howe St.
There is also a right turn lane on Pacific at Howe.

You're correct that if your destination is north of Davie, you'd take Hornby to Davie or Smithe then head westbound.

Most of the streets in the West End are considered local streets.


https://vancouver.ca/files/cov/downtown-transportation-plan-section4.pdf

[Migrant_Coconut]

Pacific is equally problematic for a streetcar, since it's been traffic-calmed at Burrard.

[fredinno]

.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by officedweller

From northbound Burrard Bridge to the West End you round the block with right hand turns.
From the bridge, you turn right onto Pacific, then right onto Howe (2 blocks east) then right onto Beach Ave.
That why the rightmost right turn lane on Burrard Bridge is clogged up.
That's the line-up for the cars heading to the West End via Howe St.
There is also a right turn lane on Pacific at Howe.

You're correct that if your destination is north of Davie, you'd take Hornby to Davie or Smithe then head westbound.

Most of the streets in the West End are considered local streets.

Pacific/Beach are useless unless your destination is close to or west of Denman. Thurlow is one-way at Pacific, Bute, Jervis, and Cardero dead-end before Denman, Broughton has no through traffic at Harwood, and Nicola dead-ends at Robson.

For people that live in the core of the West End bounded by Davie, Denman, Robson, and Thurlow, Davie is the better option. Otherwise you need to take Pacific to Beach, Beach to Denman, and then Denman to your preferred east-west street. That is much more circuitous.

Either way, closing Davie or Pacific/Beach to traffic to run a street car down them would only leave on option for through traffic on the southern edge of the West End.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Pacific/Beach are useless unless your destination is close to or west of Denman. Thurlow is one-way at Pacific, Bute, Jervis, and Cardero dead-end before Denman, Broughton has no through traffic at Harwood, and Nicola dead-ends at Robson.

For people that live in the core of the West End bounded by Davie, Denman, Robson, and Thurlow, Davie is the better option. Otherwise you need to take Pacific to Beach, Beach to Denman, and then Denman to your preferred east-west street. That is much more circuitous.

Either way, closing Davie or Pacific/Beach to traffic to run a street car down them would only leave on option for through traffic on the southern edge of the West End.

You could open up streets like Drake, Smithe, Burnaby, and Nelson as arterials, rather than local by un-traffic calming them, but that would be a complete reorganization of the street network. Closing off Davie would allow you to shove the bike lanes onto Davie instead of Burnaby and/or Comox, though, as well as have patio/street retail space between the stations, so there are benefits to a general reorganization anyways.

It would be the same if you tried to put the streetcar down Drake instead though, so you don't have many options.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by fredinno

You could open up streets like Drake, Smithe, Burnaby, and Nelson as arterials, rather than local by un-traffic calming them,

I actually don't think any of those are options. Davie travels the entire length of downtown. Meanwhile, Drake turns into a back lane at Burrard, Burnaby ends at Burrard, Nelson is one-way past Thurlow because it feeds the Cambie Bridge, and Smithe is so far north cars have alternative routes (Robson or Alberni or Georgia).